The Predicted Absence Of The Melody In Music

[Antolina]

Actually, there are a lot of brilliant improvisors in the rap scene (freestyling). Improvising POETRY at fast tempos takes some real talent!

I have no arguement with your first sentence. Call rap what you will. The poetry may have value to some and has it's place but fer gawd's sake...

Please don't call it music.

[Brint Hannay]

Actually, there are a lot of brilliant improvisors in the rap scene (freestyling). Improvising POETRY at fast tempos takes some real talent! One could easily argue that rap is responsible for restoring the premier role of lyrics and swinging beats, getting us away from the mumbled lyrics and plodding beats of modern rock. But that would require admitting that rap is MUSIC.

I, for one, definitely agree that rap is music, and takes real talent. It's music I personally do not care for at all, but it's music. Similarly, pure percussion is music, too (and I often enjoy that a lot).

The topic of this thread, though, had to do with melody. Rap certainly can't be said to be enhancing the role of melody in music.

[Marc Jenkins]

I think the introduction of rap music into this discussion brings a valid point. The decline of the quality of music as a whole can not be set upon the lack of melody. There are far too many forms of music that have never relied on strong, hum-able melodies for their power. Many others have little or no harmony, as mentioned before. Others lack a rhythmic foundation.

It is true that part of what made the early Beatles songs so great was the fantastic melodies. The production and arrangements didn't hurt either!

I'll agree that the mindless drivel on the mainstream pop and pop-country is less good than what dominated the charts in the past, but that isn't only because of the lack of a decent melody. The production is over-compressed, a lot of the vocalists aren't singers, blah blah blah... I've never really liked the sugar-pop or schmaltzy countrypolitan from the 60's either, however.

[Antolina]

Marc,

Wonderful post. The discussion concerned melody and was from the OP's perspective.

My persepective is purely how music relates to me personally as concerns my instrument, self expression and listening enjoyment.

I'll agree that music comes in all forms albeit poetry with a tempo, percussion or whatever inspires a form of expression... vocalized or otherwise. In the context of what I interpret as music, the fact remains that melody as we knew it is pretty much a thing of the past.

[Ben Jones]

The melody (when present at all) in rap music is often contained in the instrumental music, not the vocalization...but yeah, its largely just absent.
beats and rhymes. often its just an 808 and a vocalist..NO instruments at all (well turntables I guess. scratching has gotta count as instrumentation like it or not)

I see rap as yet another wonderfully innovative form of black music, eventually co-opted by white youth, and derided by older generations as "not music" or "crap"...in much the same way rock and roll or jazz was. I'm no musicologist tho.

where else have we seen the disappearance of melody? free jazz, metalcore, nu-metal, rap, ambient, drone, techno ? Im sure there are other and possibly better examples.

i really have no point here, just making some observations and throwin em out.

[Dave Stagner]

Thanks for that excellent comment, Marc. I agree 100%! "Melody", or the lack thereof, isn't the problem with "music these days". Then again, I'd argue that there's nothing wrong at all with music these days, and that melody is no less valued, and just as many great melodies are being written and played.

The problem isn't melody, the problem is THE RADIO. Turn that darn thing off! Or at least, turn off the channels that carry nothing but predigested mainstream junk. Heck, I'd even argue that completely traditional country is alive and well, although you'd never know it by turning on the "country" station. Real country is stuck in the alt.country ghetto now.

Y'know, when y'all go on about how bad music is these days, you sound just like your parents did way back when! Musicians today are every bit as talented and creative as they were back twenty or thirty or fifty years ago or whatever your frame of reference is. And if musicians today are doing "non-melodic" music, it's BECAUSE they're creative, and finding alternative ways to express themselves beyond the same notes and sounds that were being used back in the days when Elvis and the Beatles were the downfall of melody in music...

[J D Sauser]

Always keep in mind that during ANY given period or decade or at the inception of most particular (any) music style, there where those who who wavered the index and warned that it was:
Bad music, The Devils music (not only Rock & Roll!), primitive or Niger/Negro Music that would degrade a fine (white) person's mind, Simple Music or just No music at all ect!

Remember the Grand Ol' Opry recenting the use of electric instruments and drums, because it wasn't "country"... that's not sooooo long ago!

And just to mention a few stories, before we foget:

Remember the public Elvis record burnings by car dealers in the 50's to boost sales to conservative (older) buyers?

Remember that idiotic TV host yelling "Rock'n'Roll has got to go", while "bling" braking a shellac record over the turn table's edge?
And another TV host (quite rightfully) making fun of the lyrics of Gene Vincent's Bee Bop a Lula? A song which is today widely regarded as a milestone of the Americana music culture.

Do you think the classical music listeners from the end of the 19th century thought very highly of the Gershwin Bros' tendency to include "black" elements in what would later be regarded as genius musical fusion?

Even Banjo's where long not well accepted instruments in some music styles it has become so synonimous with today?

People like clarinetist Benny Goodman (wrongly) not being taken serious by classic musicians as a capable musician all together, while it was them who could not possibly do what he did?

Every music style, and during all it's periods, has certainly had it's artistic highlights (well, ALMOST every, OK) and it's share of garbage. Interestingly it is not always the highlights which have proven to withstand the test of time and poor memory.
In the 70's there was a time when country singers would TALK rather than sing (I think they called it trucker country?).

... J-D.

[Antolina]

JD,

You just blew my already feeble mind. You couldn't possibly be old enough to remember the moments you recounted.

Is it possible yer foto is of you as a much younger man?

[Les Anderson]

I guess we can only conclude from the direction that this discussion has taken that someone or persons need to define what music is and what is it that makes music an accepted art form; then, define the dividing line between music and what is not music. (wow, was that a mouthful)

I really do not agree that Rap and Acid ock or Heavy Metal rock is definable music. Though there are chords to an extent and musical instruments are included in the performance, the musicians can play about anything they choose as long as it is in key with everyone else. Most of the said music however is covered, camouflaged and/or obscured with smoke, laser lights and a myriad other electronic distractions. I have known and know many musicians who play what I call hard-line rock and many are any where from good to excellent musicians.

How ever, whenever I ask one of them to hum or give me melody of any of their numbers, they hum and haw and generally fail to come up with any form of how the song goes. The most generalized response I get is "It's not in the music it's in the feel." Now you figure that one out.

So, what is music and what is not music?

[Les Anderson]

JD, those eras and performers of the day were still bound to talent and the arrangement of music. What you are eluding to is genre between styles, not the absence of music. Every one of those bands and performers you mentioned, had songs and musical arrangements that had unique and identifiable melodies. The music sounded equally pleasant with or without the vocals. It is only within the last 30- 35 years that, what I call, the rebellion musical era started. Maybe it was a carry over from the hippie days where the young rebelled against the establishment.

Kill your parents, rape your sister, shoot your teacher, f**k your country, is not music. It’s almost a form of protesting hate.

When I can sit down and play the melody of a song on my steel, harmonicas, acoustic, panflute I am playing music. When I pick up any one of my instruments and fail to find the melody of a song, I cannot consider it music.

On the other hand, wouldn't be a tragedy if we were not free not express our opinions and selves in our two countries?

[Antolina]

Ain't about freedom of expression Les. It's about our concepts of music and your allegory is about as good as it gets.

"When I pick up any one of my instruments and fail to find the melody of a song, I cannot consider it music".

[Dave Stagner]

Again, Les, melody is not necessary. The middle eastern band I'm in, probably a majority of our music has no melodic instruments at all - it's purely percussion. And we're by no stretch an electric band, although we do occasionally use electric guitar (and lap steel!). No smoke machines, or laser shows, or even amplifiers... it's unamplified acoustic music. Oh, and we're a dance band!

It's okay to not like other people's music (there's plenty of music I don't like either). But it's insulting to say it ISN'T music just because you don't like it. I play in at least two different bands that don't play "music" by your definition, so it's a bit personal to me.

Frank Zappa said it really well... "Music is a way of decorating time" (with sound, I'd add). If you're making sounds in order to decorate time, you're playing music. Whether it's good music, that's a subjective call.

[J D Sauser]

JD,

You just blew my already feeble mind. You couldn't possibly be old enough to remember the moments you recounted.

Is it possible yer foto is of you as a much younger man?

I just turned 21, RC, just the 2nd. time around .
I was raised by parents who felt that only classical music (and not just any) was music at all.
Some uncles managed to smuggle some early Swing and more progressive "classical" or early post "classical" music like Federick Smethana or Gershwin into my personal "collection" of records, all while at the risk of being expelled from the family by my parents.
As a teenager I was really into Swing and some early (still melodic) Jazz. Then, for the sake of little bit more teeny coolness and so not to leave all the chicks to the other guys which were more into contemporary stuff (it was the 80's... Disco was the new cool thing), I eventually migrated into Rockabilly, Hillbilly and eventually Western Swing as it just happened to lived a huge revival, all which made me discover the steel guitar. Being in Europe, at that time, we had to study all that stuff... so, I "remember".

... J-D.

[Charles Davidson]

Won't beat around the bush,If anyone thinks rap is music,you have every right to support it,IMO it's NOT,so many TV shows and TV ads have it in them,that's why I keep my finger on the mute button,Some told me it was because I did'nt understand it,Hope to the good LORD I never do,that's when I will know my appreciation of music is dead,don't you know.

[Wayne Wallett]

I am dismayed by the lack of writing in modern country music as well. Not many songs written these days with a 'well turned phrase'. Early days of Willie Nelson songwriting, and a few others in Nashville. Maybe it will change back someday??? Anyone else notice or care to comment?
Regards,
Wayne Wallett

[Chris LeDrew]

Dave S., you mentioned "pre-digested"......

J.D., your parents had a lot in common with German philosopher Theodor Adorno. In his 1941 essay "On Popular Music", he discusses the characteristics of popular music and its inferiority to classic music. He saw all this coming 60 years ago:

"The composition hears for the listener. This is how popular music divests the listener of his spontaneity and promotes conditioned reflexes. Not only does it not require his effort to follow its concrete stream; it actually gives him models under which anything concrete still remaining may be subsumed. The schematic buildup dictates the way in which he must listen while, at the same time, it makes any effort in listening unnecessary. Popular music is "pre-digested" in a way strongly resembling the fad of "digests" of printed material."

"Imitation offers a lead for coming to grips with the basic reasons for it. The musical standards of popular music were originally developed by a competitive process. As one particular song scored a great success, hundreds of others sprang up imitating the successful one. The most successful hits types, and "ratios" between elements were imitated, and the process culminated in the crystallization of standards."

And on and on......ABBA would've made Adorno cringe. This is a cyclical argument that will perpetuate itself forever.

[Bo Legg]

Melody! Melody! It would be out of place in today’s music with the BASS sounding like a TENNIS SHOE in a CLOTHES DRYER and the DRUMS sounding like ROAD WORK. Melody! Melody! I’d be happy to get a down beat.

[Dave Stagner]

Funny to see someone blasting pop music for the same things that classical music did/does, Chris.

There are really a couple of things at work here. First, there's the ongoing tension around the listener's expectations... if you stretch the listener too far out of their comfort zone, they'll reject it (hence the "rock is not music" comments). But if you stay too far inside the comfort zone, you fail to surprise the listener and the music becomes dull and uninteresting (hence the grumbling about modern Nashville country/pop).

The second thing is the listener's cultural expectations, what sort of music they normally hear within the bounds of their culture. Even if the music is basically conservative and safe within its genre, it can sound totally wild to someone outside that culture. How far people are willing to stretch to understand music from outside their norms is purely individual.

So my rebuttal of Adorno's premise is that classical music is every bit as imitative and shallow as pop... it's just that the listener's expectations vary depending on their cultural background. In other words, Adorno is just being condescending and narrowminded - typical of academics, especially in the European arts. (Lucky me, I grew up a half-step out of the trailer park AND got a full-tilt liberal arts education, so I've seen both sides of the fence and I'm not impressed by either side)

Basically, I don't think anyone is justified calling music "good" or "bad" (or worse, "not music") unless their familiar and comfortable with the music's genre. Now, within the realm of
steel guitar, melody is tremendously important! Steel guitar is essentially a melodic/harmonic instrument. And I think the de-emphasis of melody in popular music is real, and it's one reason the pedal steel has become less prominent in country music (the other is that it doesn't sit so well in the aggressive, loud mixes of modern pop).

[Dave Stagner]

Melody! Melody! It would be out of place in today’s music with the BASS sounding like a TENNIS SHOE in a CLOTHES DRYER and the DRUMS sounding like ROAD WORK. Melody! Melody! I’d be happy to get a down beat.

Heh. Great analogies! But I think you're really onto something there... one of the characteristics of modern music is that it's too LOUD and overcompressed, with no dynamics... and dynamics are an important part of melodic expression. Even if the melodic notes are the same, it's hard to play them nicely if you can't vary the volume and touch.

[Bill Hatcher]

I listened to an English translated interview from a German radio show this past week end that featured all four members of the Swedish singing group, ABBA. This interview was taped back in January of 1980. In that interview, Agnetha Fältskog (the blonde girl) and Benny Andersson (ABBA’s keyboardist) mentioned that North American music is losing, if not already lost, the art of creating melodies in their music and that the music industry on this continent will suffer this loss for generations to come.

These folks have not been to a Broadway show recently. Plenty of great tunes in these.