No Smoking Policy - What a relief !!!

Robert Harper · Post by **Robert Harper** » 11 Dec 2007 12:40 pm

I am a former smoker. I quit when they became too expensive 15 yrs ago. i agree however with Tony the intrusion into our private live is every where. We seem to give up more and more liberty to the Governing bodies. Smokin seat belts work place rules and we don't seem to care or notice. I am old enough to remeber and so are many of you, when Jimmy Carter suggested we have a national ID. We almost made him leave office oer this outlandish idea. After 911, I heard the same suggestion and no one seemed to care. We have become dependent on the Government for almost everything. I dont agrre very much with the Dems, however, I don't think the Government should read our mail, listen to our phone calls, track our phone calls without probable cause. But, that doesn't seem to bother others. Give up any freedom as log as we are safe, as long as we don't have to pay taxes for the safety

Robert Harper · Post by **Robert Harper** » 11 Dec 2007 12:56 pm

I forgot to mention probably one, make that 2) of my least favorite intrusions. Until the wise nine decided a few years ago, differently. if you wern't breaking the law and a cop ask for Id you did't have to tell him now you must. if a private entinity wanted your personel property, he had to pay for the property, now the rich can have a politician steal it from you legally and give it to him. The land of the free and the home of the brave

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 11 Dec 2007 1:25 pm

I have a DVD of the Big E playing a concert,The very first thing on the vidio,Buddy says is All right guys,we are gonna pick and smoke,and smoke and pick,Did'nt see not ONE get up and walk out,I still say the PC crowd along with hypercritical politicians that want to force their agenda on anyone that does not agree with,case in point[won't call in names]But I remember one in particular that was running for a very high office,he was giving a speech in a tobacco growing state,he bragged about his family raising tobacco,and had fond memeries of working in the tobacco fields as a child,A few days later he was addressing a hard core PC crowd,then he protrayed the tobacco industry as demons from hell,that is PC,a few forcing their agenda on the majority,Still love to play steel guitar in those SMOKEY HONKY TONKS,don't you know.

Ray Walker · Post by **Ray Walker** » 11 Dec 2007 1:36 pm

Good Lord this is gettin good... Light em up boys and girls

I was thinking today about the fact that so many on here have said that the non-smoking rule had no effect of the clubs....At that point I would have to say to those musicians that don't want to smell it....simply take your show over to the "other non- smoking club"...but now I am hearing there aren't so many of those to choose from.....that is while it is still a voluntary thing....which means that in itself if folks liked that they would just make the policy themselves....but it's looking more and more like only after BIG BROTHER "FORCES IT UPON EVERYONE" that it become acceptable. Apparently it's not what folks want who are paying the bill but more what others want to change. Still I would like to see a compromise...but I think you non-smokers have already taken this thing too far and you might get what you want....a nice smoke free evening out sipping wine and listening to amatuers singing along to tracks. Like I said in an earlier post.....be careful what you ask for...cause doggonit....you're just liable to get it...By the way....I'm headed out the door to my evening gig.....but I'll be sure to check in tomorrow and see how we're all getting along...

Oh, and any of you folks who just don't want your gig because it's in a smoke filled bar...please let me know cause if it's too far for me...I am absolutely certain there is someone I know that might like the work. Not being mean spirited here...just being honest. I gotta get that book and read it....sounds like good material.

RW

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 11 Dec 2007 1:39 pm

Well, I'm a smoker.. My thoughts on it is simply this: "No offense intended to anyone who doesn't like being around smoke."

Possibly, if I didn't smoke myself, I may feel the same. But what I wouldn't do, is go around and try to take away others rights, simply because I didn't like what they did.

People have a personal choice, if a person doesn't like smoke, simply don't play in the places that allow it.. Or don't take a job with a group that allows it.

I don't mind being around people regardless of what they choose to do, as long as they don't start any s''t with me, I'm cool with it.

I believe in live and let live. Keep government out of our lives. We don't need more laws, and we don't need police states..

We only need to learn that we ALL have a choice. And one of them is to turn around and walk back out of an establishment that doesn't fit our taste.

"Seems simple enough to me."

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Dec 2007 1:58 pm

As Musicians, why do we think we have a RIGHT to play anywhere?

As a company's employees, why do we think we have a RIGHT to work here? Let's just kill ALL these stupid OSHA regulations, and let companies decide what environmental and safety protections their employees, and the public, have a RIGHT to. If you don't like it, just get out of here and move somewhere else. You know, it costs money to do all this garbage, why bother? Companies have absolute right to run their company any way they want, no matter who it hurts, right?

Well, that's not the reality anymore. You can argue until you're blue in the face. I'm pretty well certain that the tide will roll over you on this. It's happening as we speak - if you want to stop the draconian rules, y'all better start to think about some alternatives, IMO.

I can remember when you used to be able to smoke in bed in the hospital.

Now there's a brilliant idea - send really sick people to the hospital, and have people smoking next to them. Yeah, I remember people smoking in wards where there were people with serious lung problems. Chet - are you really arguing this is a good idea? Are there NO limits to where people can light up? Just because something was done historically doesn't make it reasonable.

I already said that - if it can be done properly - I'm OK with careful monitoring and control of air quality levels in bars/restaurants using proper ventilation. Works for chemical companies, scientific laboratories, or anyplace where toxic fumes abound - but it's expensive. I've worked in places with extensive chemical ventilation. No rational person would have suggested it wasn't necessary.

As I said, I know I'm wasting my breath. But at least don't give me any PC garbage. On this forum, it's arguing AGAINST smoking rules that is PC, not arguing FOR them.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 11 Dec 2007 2:06 pm

I'm not a smoker, never have been. But, I've been around them all my life. I also happen to have C.O.P.D., asthma. I try to avoid all smoke as much as possible, but, sometimes, not often, I have been subjected to it. Most people, of whom, I know, who smoke, are very considerate and then again some aren't. I don't really care if somebody smokes. It's UP TO THEM to decide, not me or the government. I just don't like being subjected to it and that's MY CHOICE. Drinking and driving is totally wrong. I'm against it and so is THE LAW.

Marc Jenkins · Post by **Marc Jenkins** » 11 Dec 2007 2:52 pm

PC sucks.

Smoking is gross and kills people, and yes, it harms those who do not smoke.

Many people must work in bars to support a college tuition, or as a second income, or a first. They should not have to breath toxic chemicals to do so.

Drinking alcohol does not harm other people.

Listening to or playing music does not require cigarettes.

Here in BC, many cities banned smoking in bars around 10 years ago. Last winter, I played a gig out of town and there was smoking in the club. My clothes and gear stunk, and I had a throbbing headache, and my mouth tasted like an ashtray in the morning. Gross.

I don't care if people smoke, tobacco or otherwise. While I'm on the fence about 'the man' stepping in and deciding things for us, I certainly don't think that there is anything glamorous about the 'good old days' when you could smoke in schools and hospitals.

There is also nothing glamorous about my uncle's tracheotomy.

Chet Wilcox · Post by **Chet Wilcox** » 11 Dec 2007 2:56 pm

Dave, Im not saying smoking is good for anyone , Im just saying that every one has the same rights as the next guy, other wise it turns to Ideoligity and that should never be forced on anyone.

Bob Borzelleri · Post by **Bob Borzelleri** » 11 Dec 2007 3:03 pm

It seems pretty incredible to think that there are two sides to this issue.

Anyone who doesn't understand that smoking and being around second hand smoke (which is quite a few times worse than primary smoking) is a serious and harmful threat to the health of a human being is simply not well informed.

The question of government intervention (risk management) should not be characterized as lending doubt as to the science (risk assessment) behind the effects of cigarette smoke.

Folks who don't want government to intervene regarding threats to public health, are left to rely on the voluntary actions of the tobacco industry and smokers. Unfortunately, people who want to breathe clean air would be in the same boat without the government stepping in.

Working to make the air in enclosed places (which already starts out, without tobacco smoke, as being much more polluted and unhealthy than people generally think), breathable (along with roadways and sewers, etc.) are what government should be doing for the greater good of the many.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 11 Dec 2007 3:37 pm

my Mother died 10 years ago this month, she lived to the ripe old age of 84 she smoked 2 packs a day as long as i can remember ,
she died from......an auto wreck

Lee Baucum · Post by **Lee Baucum** » 11 Dec 2007 3:58 pm

My Dad died 4 years ago at the ripe old age of 79. He started smoking in high-school. I can't tell you how many times he quit.
He died from......lung cancer.

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 11 Dec 2007 5:22 pm

Mark J. Smoking is gross and kills people

Question becomes: "What doesn't kill people?"

Didn't you know that simply LIVING kills people moreso than anything else.

"We're born, and yet while growing up we're dying from day one.."

I've seen babies born and die from cancer, whose parents and grandparents never smoked, and I've seen babies born from parents who've both smoked, and grow up, healthy.

I'm not saying cigarettes are good for you, but what I am saying is that, we're all going to die from one thing or another.

So, enjoy life while it's here, and play wherever and whenever, you can. Or you can simply sit at home and tell us all how good you could have been, had it not been for the "Smoke".

However, remember that when sitting home each day, is still, one less that you have.

That's simply fact.

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 11 Dec 2007 5:36 pm

Working to make the air in enclosed places (which already starts out, without tobacco smoke, as being much more polluted and unhealthy than people generally think), breathable (along with roadways and sewers, etc.) are what government should be doing for the greater good of the many.

Amen!!

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 11 Dec 2007 5:55 pm

"...I remember when you used to be able to smoke in bed in the hospital."

Yes, and they used to throw raw sewage into the streets a few hundred years ago.

We're all better informed now, though, aren't we?

I've been to two ISGCs since I came to live in the USA, but my wife and I will never forget the reek of second-hand smoke on our clothes in our 'non-smoking' room; the attempt to segregate smokers and non-smokers in the main showroom is ineffective, and I'm sorry to say that I won't to another St Louis show because of this very issue.

Back in the Old Country, the bulk of my work was in studios. Now I'm here, my work is pretty much exclusively in theatres. These are smoke-free environments, by and large; if I reached a point where my only playing option was a smoky bar, I'd hang it up and start taking Social security!

Stale or second-hand tobacco smoke is way beyond unpleasant.

RR
PS: I'm not a reformed addict - I never tried a cigarette in my life; as a small boy I was put off for ever by the sight and smell of my parents lighting up after every meal.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 11 Dec 2007 5:57 pm

we are getting carried away..

Playing a gig now and then in a BAR is not the same thing as working 5 days a week , 52 weeks a year for 20 years , for a company in the same Plant.

A gig is not an OSHA controlled work area. The building may have the appropriate Fire Exits and Emergency lighting dictated by city ordinance but thats where it ends. OSHA rules are based on company size and employee headcount.

we cant compare Apples to Fig Newtons here.

Many here are very passionate but the end of the day issue is still the same, it's NOT THE FEDS mandating the NO SMOKING Laws, it's the local City Councils or the State legislatures, NOT the FED GOVT.

Why isn't the FED Govt involved ?

Don't we find that odd ?

Why aren't they demanding that every State and every place that a human goes be Smoke Free ? After all, isn't that the problem ? Smokers being around NON Smokers and killing them ?

I find it a bit nutty for someone to go into a Smoke Free place to buy Cigarettes !

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 11 Dec 2007 5:58 pm

can someone tell me what this thread has to do with steel guitars????

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 11 Dec 2007 7:51 pm

Like it or not, our friend Dave Mudgett is 100% correct. The No Smoking ban here in michigan, was written for employees in bars and resturants. It had nothing at all to do with the patrons. Here is a news clip from our local television station. Sadly we won't see a no smoking ban here in michigan unless someone steps up real quick. As a side note, about a year or so ago, michigan raised it's cigarette tax a quarter a pack. Here is the news release:

-----------------------------------------------------
WZZM13 NEWS

MORE HEADLINE

Michigan Senate deals blow to smoking ban in bars, restaurants

Make WZZM 13 your home page

(AP)

LANSING, Mich. - Efforts to ban smoking in Michigan bars, restaurants and other workplaces have hit a road block in the state Senate.

Republicans sent the smoking ban measure to a committee where many bills go to die. Democrats tried to steer it to the health policy committee instead because the committee's Republican chairman supports the ban.

Democrats on Tuesday accused the GOP majority of ignoring a U.S. surgeon general report that says breathing any amount of secondhand smoke harms nonsmokers.

Republican Majority Leader Mike Bishop says workplaces should be free to decide whether to allow smoking or not, and government shouldn't interfere with private businesses such as restaurants and bars.

The state House last week voted to ban smoking in most workplaces.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 11 Dec 2007 7:56 pm

Playing a gig now and then in a BAR is not the same thing as working 5 days a week , 52 weeks a year for 20 years , for a company in the same Plant.

A gig is not an OSHA controlled work area. The building may have the appropriate Fire Exits and Emergency lighting dictated by city ordinance but thats where it ends. OSHA rules are based on company size and employee headcount.

With all due respect, Tony, I know lots of working musicians that have made a living 6 nights a week for the last 20-50 years in smoking clubs. Lots of musicians do this as a JOB, and plenty of us here do this and know others that do. I did it for 6 years, full time, 6 nights a week, and part-time for a lot longer than that. I left the "profession", as y'all so euphemistically call it, because my lungs and especially my sinuses just freaked out, and started growing all kinds of strange stuff. I decided I didn't want to mess with pharyngeal cancer, so I bailed out on doctor's orders and went back to my former profession as a science - engineering college professor. I was lucky enough to have something else to do. Many are not so fortunate, and I have had several musician friends succumb from cancer and other gig-lifestyle maladies the last few years. I would think we in the steel guitar community would have noticed some of this going on the last several years ourselves. What does it take to see what's going on?

I'm not given to emotional fits. I can look at technical situations and data with cold-blooded detachment - it's just the way I was trained. And you can believe that the data here is clear. Smoking and second-hand smoke dramatically raises the risk of early death by a host of causes. It's comparable to the kind of risks that chemical workers faced before companies were forced to clean up their working environments. There's a lot more to workplace safety than fire exits and emergency lighting. We're talking about what "should" be going on here, not what OSHA does now.

What amazes me is that we're having yet another one of these pointless discussions, and even further, that I'm back into the fray. But I think it's worth it to at least try to articulate some of these points. Ignore them if you like - it's really not a problem. None of us really influence this to any significant degree. We're just talking here, player to player, I hope.

can someone tell me what this thread has to do with steel guitars????

Calvin, this section is "Steel Players", not "Steel Guitars". This is the kind of stuff that working club players of all stripes have to deal with - both smoking and non-smoking. If you don't like it, you can move on. This isn't about political idealogy, as much as some of you seem to want it to be. It's about environmental hazards in a musician's - and other workers' - workplace.

All IMHO, of course.

Danny Kuykendall · Post by **Danny Kuykendall** » 11 Dec 2007 8:02 pm

I own a billiard/room sports bar in Orange County, CA and 9 years ago smoking was banned in all public buildings including restaurants and bars.
I was really ticked when this happened, I lost about 10 per cent of business, and cops weren't enforcing the ban in small bars, which made it more frustrating for me as a bar owner.
As it finally played out, after a few years most of my customers returned and it was a much nicer place to work and hang out.
I do think it's a bit hypocritical for the state govenment of California to tax the heck out of cigarettes, make smokers seem like a parhia of some kind and make it illegal to smoke almost everywhere.
Why not just make it illegal, if it's so bad to everyone around who has to breathe your smoke?
They won't make it illegal because they're collecting so much in taxes right now because of those who smoke they don't want to lose the revenue.
If so many are dying from second hand smoke, why keep it legal?
When you consume alcohol the only people (generally) you put at risk are other drivers, if you've had too much to drink. I understand why prohibition didn't work.
Smoking is a different animal, I believe.

Danny K

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 11 Dec 2007 8:51 pm

Some one above made the statement[DRINKING ALCOHOL DOES NOT HARM OTHER PEOPLE]You must forgot about the thousands upon thousands of INNOCENT men,women,and children that have been slaughtered on our highways by drunk drivers[the worst part a lot of times the drunk walks away unhurt].You must also forgot all the wifes murdered by drunk husbands,Did you forget all the children abused by drunken parents,or maybe the broken homes caused by alcohol,or maybe all the great careers lost because of alcohol,or all the educated intellectuals that are turned into babbling idiots after a few drinks,Don't think the smokers have caused near this much carnage and heartache,I feel a hell of a lot more threatened by a drunk than a smoker anyday,Gonna keep playing my steel guitar in that smokey bar,don't you know.

Kevin Mincke · Post by **Kevin Mincke** » 11 Dec 2007 9:26 pm

Y'all ever seen the commercial about the waitress who worked that second job and was around second hand smoke where the air was lingering BLUE, just to earn a few extra sheckles so her daughter could go to college? About 9 months after taping she died of lung cancer and her final comment was "I didn't smoke, I never smoked" Not to mention the billions of dollars spent on health care for these patients.
Would I still play a job where smoking was allowed? Sure, but would I make a steady diet of it....I think not but am thankful we're moving in the direction of smoke free. Go burn one out on the porch or in the shop

no problem and don't forget that cup of Folgers

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 11 Dec 2007 9:43 pm

Hell i'm not anti smoking, most of my family smoke. With the Lords help i gave it up cold turkey. Then 5 years later after not smoking one single cigarette i came down with cancer. The cancer doctor told me my lungs looked as if i had worked in a coal mine all my life, that's what 3 packs aday did to me. I am not suppose to even be around a fireplace or campfire. So the bar scene is out of the question.I had to give up scotty's convention finally because of smoking. But i hear it's none smoking now, is that correct? maybe someone can jump in here and answer that question for me. Thanks George

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 11 Dec 2007 10:38 pm

Well, I wasn't going to join in again. But smoking absolutely should NEVER be made illegal. The fact is that banning things just doesn't work. The greatest per capita incidence of alchoholism in our country was the 20 years right after prohibition. The 2nd greatest was DURING prohibition. Alchohol use actually went up during prohibition and has for the most part gone down (again PER CAPITA) ever since. Smoking is going down because of education and taxation. Use of many other drugs that most people probably never would have even known existed spiked in the '60's because of the illegality of them and the panic about them. Drug use is going down now not because they are illegal but because after our national binge we are learning our lesson about them. Regulate them, tax them and educate about them with the facts. But DON'T make them illegal. If it's not adventurous and scary, alot of the fun of using just isn't there anymore.

George Redmon · Post by **George Redmon** » 11 Dec 2007 10:46 pm

Ed with all due respect, you are comparing apples to tomatoes. In this instance we are talking about health issues. In theory, you can stand beside me, and drink untill you drop, and the only thing that will happen to me, is the beer that gets spilled on my nikes. But you stand next to me and chain smoke 3 packs of camels...and that's a different story.