Playing by Ear

[Bill Mayville]

Most beginners have problems because the approch is done very wrong.
The ones that can play a regular have it maid.But that depends on how well they played the 6 string.
1 4 and 5.The regular guitar.F postion ,third fret gives you G.Down two frets to a C7 position always gives you the four chord.Back up two frets with the C7 position gives you the five chord.Yes,you can find
1 4 and 5 in the same fret,another way.Lets start over. 1 4 and 5.(Pedal steel.)Third fret.(3)
Strings 86&5 So far we have 3/86&5.Your B pedal and your D lever together will give you your 5 chord.Actually a five 7.The five 7 is exactly like your C 7 postion. Leave the third fret with B and D to the first fret,and you will ALWAYS have your four chord.On a fretted instrument ,moving two frets up will give you the Five chord.To simplify something.
Just think of the notes as 8.And one of those is a repeat.Don't need sharps and flats as yet.Some thing different.3/86&5(G) to 3/86&5AB(C) to5/86&5AB(D)
there is one four five in a different manner.Works up the whole neck.
I used to help a lot on the forum.The second I had to charge $9 + 1 for shipping,the guys would not pay like they said ,so I quit trying to help.I hope this little thing helps a few. Merry X mas

Bill Mayviile

[Steve Waltz]

Someone earlier had listed scales for each key. I thought I would mention a way that helped me to figure out the notes in a scale on the spot without having to memories all of them. Maybe this has been covered before but everyboduy learns in different ways so maybe this will help someone or maybe I will learn something.

Memorise (Whole,Whole, half,Whole, whole, whole, half.) Think of it as a template to be used with the template of the C scale. CDEFGABC. Whole=two frets. Half=one fret. Look at the C scale there is a whole step(or two frets) between C and D, Whole step between D and E, Have step(or one fret) between E and F, Whole between F and G, Whole between G and A, Whole between A and B, Half step Between B and C.

So to write a scale in F.....Use the two templates, you have to think of the C scale and the whole whole half thing....

F whole step to G, whole step to A, Half step( or only one fret up) to Bflat, Whole step to C, Whole step to D, whole step to E, half step to F.

The note that is different from the C scale is the Bflat. That's because we use the template which says you need a half step in the F scale from the A to the next note. A half step up from A is Bflat.

This usually works for me when I need to alter a chord that I don't know. If a chord needs to have a flat 5, you need to know what the fifth is to start with before you can lower it a half step. I just can't remeber all of the keys on the spot so I do it this way.

If I'm wrong on something someone point it out.

Last thing, I have always found it difficult to understand modes when people continue to say that the modes work off of the C scale and start at different notes. I can't even remeber the names right now but one starts on C....CDEFGABC and another starts on D....DEFGABCD.......and so on. I never got that very well because I thought "how does the scale change the way it sounds if you just start on a different note." yup, thats silly. But everyone learns differently. I beleive the way to use the modes is to memorise a C scale and then move it to a different positions on the neck to get the different sound from the moved scale when used in the same progression. Help me out here! What is the second Mode called, I forgot but if I wanted to see how it sounds agains an A chord would I take a major scale in a, lets say at the 5th fret and then move the scale up the fretboard two frets? And then likewise for the other modes?

Steve.....not too afraid to point out what I don't know.

[Calvin Walley]

Bill my freind, you confused me with this

1 4 and 5.The regular guitar.F postion ,third fret gives you G.Down two frets to a C7

moving 2 fret down from G (3rd fret) would be an A
(5th fret)
where are you getting the C7 ??

[Mike Winter]

"1 4 and 5.The regular guitar.F postion ,third fret gives you G.Down two frets to a C7 position always gives you the four chord.Back up two frets with the C7 position gives you the five chord."

The regular guitar, not pedal steel.

If you play a G in a non-barre manner (like you're playing an F), you then slide down and play a C7...move back up two frets playing the C7...there are the I, IV and V chords.

[Charlie McDonald]

Really what is playing by ear?

This is really a deep subject.
To do it justice, we'd have to delve into the senses, individual character, and how we perceive the world. So much would be said, and so little of it read.
The problem is, it's true, 'Talking about music is like dancing about architecture.' Each of us has an individual model of how to get the experience of the instrument to the brain and back; but in practice, the experience is best when it's completely sonic. No matter how you got there, the language is what happens on the bandstand. We develop the best skill we can in communicating about it, but it never is the real thing as played.

But you ask some really good questions and postulate some answers:

In my opinion it is nothing more then being able to predict from hearing a song what chord(s) are being played and in what order. They know it why?
...and for whatever reason JUST KNEW WHERE TO GO NEXT!

That might be the end result of playing by ear, altho it might be the answer in itself.
It seems that many here have been offering clues about how they think about specific musical figures. You may not have to have a conscious picture of movement, but you do have to have a memory of how a particular interval sounds. I think that part can be learned. It follows that as the intervals change, they contain clues about where the progession is going next.

Bent Romnes says:
In the words of the late Jeff Newman whom we all respect: The 7th chord is the DS chord, the Do Something chord. Which means that the 7th is a chord that walks you from one chord to the other. But you don't linger on it; you Do Something..you keep moving to the chord that the 7th tells you to go to.

He also cites the use of the aug. 5th. In terms of how I think: both it and the dom. 7th are leading to the 6th of the key--being the 3rd in the scale of the IV chord. In C, it's the movement of G# and A# to A, which is either the 3rd of F, the 6th of C, or the root of Am.

Here is another example cited by Steve Walz:

The note that is different from the C scale is the Bflat. That's because we use the template which says you need a half step in the F scale from the A to the next note. A half step up from A is Bflat.

In a way, we're all saying the same thing, but how we arrive at expressing it is different, as each person has his own model.
But it is about movement, how one thing leads to another, and using one's ears as a way to establish a 'data base.'

So is it a gift or do you acquire it?
Who has knowledge of the state of mind of all of us?
OK, I'm getting wordy here....

[Calvin Walley]

thanks Mike

i thought my brain had striped a gear haha

[basilh]

Calvin you have 'up' and 'down' on the neck confused..Down 2 from G is the F position where you also get the C7 chord ... A is UP two from G .. Up and down refer to PITCH..

[Stu Schulman]

I play mostly by ear.

[James Morehead]

It took me a week to read this whole thread, but I sure got my 5 bux worth for my membership----------------again!! Great Thread, Dean!

[Dean Salisbury]

I'm glad that whatever I do I have an idea of what I did, because now with such responses I'm totally confused again. lol

At least I know why Im confused and that is because I have no clue about the pedal. I've got to play the lotto to night in hope I win to get me a pedal steel!

I feel like being a bum and go to 42nd street with a tin can and with a xmas bell and ring it loudly and holding a large sign up saying PLEASE DONATE SO I CAN BUY ME A PEDAL 8 OR 10 STRING STEEL GUITAR for Christmas! A plain 6 string non-pedal guitar is a strange enough beast. I don't know how a newbie with NO musical back ground even has a chance to learn it.

Well may be I should think of 42nd street and Broadway! that might even be a better location to set up!

Merry Christmas to all! put your wish list in now!


Dean living on Staten Island NY

[James Morehead]

Hey Dean, to me, a beginner also, it's about navigating the neck. If you have a 6 string regular guitar, for instance. How many positions can you learn to play a "G" chord, for instance, and an "E" chord, ect. That will be basic "101", for me, and I relate well with the Nashville # system. Then you can play some basic rythmes to songs.

But now start learning scales over those chord positions. Now start blending scale "sections" of "G" in one position with "G" "scale sections" in another position connecting the two "G"'s. It builds and builds as deep as your imagination.

Now do it with your steel guitar, learning how to form your different chord inversions/chord grips and neck positions and apply your scales, connecting. When you step into the pedal steel world, the pedals and knees simply give you new ways to make chords on the neck, but that's not all by any means. The cool thing about playing pedal steel is that you just don't play notes, you play AND shape notes, or better yet, you shape sound--channeling it where you are going to next, in the song. Think bar slants on the nonpedal and lever movements on the pedal steel. Think connecting these chords with slides and lever movements. Shape sounds. Those sounds will become a voice. This is what I'd help a rank beginner to see, and keep it fun and "possible looking".
A simple country boy's slant on things.

[Dean Salisbury]

Thanks for that post James. I am charting out my 6 string C6 position strings and frets now. so I can print it out and know where the notes are of each string. I did that before but cannot find it so got to do it again. I got Doug Beaumier 60 song material the other day only problem is it is for a 10 in the E9th tuning and 8 string, so I have to tab it all out for my 6th string C6 so a lot of work to tab. I have no clue where the notes are on a C6 tuning.

Once I get it out may try your navigating method. that will confuse me I bet. lolol might take me a day just to do 1 scale not knowing where the notes are! lolol

Good post hope others try it as well

Dean Living on S.I. ny

[Moon in Alaska]

I thought of a funny way to think about steel guitar.
Playing ANY instrument that don't have frets demands you play by ear !!
All notes are formed by you and must be blended.
Back to one other post...I doubt than anyone can play steel who can not whistle, hum ot sing a tune !! LOL
Moon

[Dean Salisbury]

LOLOL your thinking of harmonica players. They say if you can whistle or hum you can play that! lolol

Now to a serious question here I'm looking at the fret/note lay out of my 6 string NON pedal tuned in C6!

Boy I know I'm going to be killed with this one! but let fly. I'm reading sheet music NOTES you know! Where would be the middle C? I know I should be more specific here but my mind has drawn a blank! Yes I know there would be more then 1 depending upon the postition and I know that is the wrong term for steelers. Hope someone know what Im trying to ask here.

Dean SI NYC

[Moon in Alaska]

I know you are not looking for a "nontechnical" answer.....
All of us would just strike middle C on the piano and match it on our steel...LOL
Moon

[Dean Salisbury]

lolol I would too if I was home, but Im not and a friend of mine don't have a keyboard or a guitar!
thought if I was lucky I could get a quick answer lolol

well may be someone reading the thread is more technical lolol. I hope someone who is reading this
tonight has a 6th string tuned to C6. But won't be that lucky. I hate to drive back to s.i. and have to pay 7.00 toll twice tonight....lolol

Dean from ny, yea we pay $7.00 bucks just to cross a bridge! and $5.oo to cross 3 other bridges just to get on and off staten island NY What money these characters are making becaues at least 80% of staten islander work off staten island! what a rip off

Dean from s.i. ny

[James Morehead]

Dean, You probably are already on top of this, but for the benefit of others: Start with one of your strings that are open tuned to C. Go to your first fret, it's C#(Db). 2nd fret is D, 3rd fret D#(Eb), 4th fret E, 5th fret F, 6th fret F#(Gb), 7th fret is G, 8th is G#(Ab), 9th is A, 10 is Bb, 11th is B, and 12, your at back at C, one octave higher. Past the 12th fret it all starts over and repeats to the 24th fret. Then go get another string and do it again. You will have charted out your neck for every note when you are done. Chromaticaly. Now do your chords---chart out a few of the positions, and you will have a reference point to go with--like a road map, so to speak. Have fun most of all!

[Dean Salisbury]

yes I am on top of that part. I have all the string and frets mapped out. But trying to figure out what would be the middle C so that we could hmmm trying to think map out notes from sheet music. So need to know where the middle C would be. Which fret which string? I know most guys here don't read music so I am probably out of luck or will have to take a ride back home which is 35 minutes each way plus a damn $7.00 bridge toll. But looks like Im going to have to make that trip. I knew I should have brought my standard guitar with me. My friends keyboard's power supply burned up tonight.

If we didn't have bad luck we wouldn't have any luck at all I guess.


thanks

Dean

[James Morehead]

[Dean Salisbury]

Thanks guys forgot it was Friday night, so most technical brains are out picking, partying, or drinking. Never mind about the Middle C, We are on our way back to Staten Island about an hour trip back and forth. I'll just bring my keyboard over so that my friend can do some playing as he don't play guitar only piano/keyboard. He has a yamaha keyboard and I do have two extra power supplies may be one of them will work!

Our luck even though one would think they should be standard, watch they won't be!

Ok guys and gals have a nice night and hope you designated a driver if your going to be drinking!


Dean living on s.i. ny

[Don Brown, Sr.]

Hey Dean, Why not go back and delete that long spew (in argument) "to free up band width" It serves no useful purpose what so ever.

[J D Sauser]

My thanks to all who've responded so far! This thread has been immensely educational for me.

David Doggett's post about all the scale notes lying within the I, IV, and V chord positions was particularly enlightening. I have a feeling that info will be instrumental (pun intended) in helping me get to the next level in unravelling the fretboard. JD Sauser's discussion of learning intervals brings me to my next snag: going up and down a string I have the advantage of seeing the visual distance as well as hearing the intervals. Seeing it really seems to help to confirm what I'm playing and then my ear catches up later. Going across strings I don't have that visual cue and that seems to confuse my little brain--anyone have any tips on developing ear familiarity with the intervals going string-to-string? Just a matter of more repetitions, I suppose. . .but can't help hoping for one more breakthrough!

Muchly appreciated,
Vince

The first step is easy to you, because the brain can relate to it doing only ONE conversion... heard distance to seen distance.
When progressing into other strings, I would suggest first exploring adjacent string.
First, explore the interval up it represents going from a particular string to the next up.
let's say it's a minor third (m3rd) higher, for the sake of an example.
When you play something and feel it would be time to jump to the next string, you look up the interval you were going to move your bar but instead jump to the next string. Since this is brain training, it is of utmost importance that you DO LOOK up to the number of frets you was going to move and then only replace that movement by the jump over to the next string to teach your brain the relationship.
Once you can do it fluently with an equal interval movement (replacing a minor third movement with a jump to a minor third apart string) you can progress into compensated jumps (like jumping over one string and down a fret to execute a two fret raise on to a string a minor third apart).
You want to do this very methodically. Again, you are talking directly to your brain! You want to do this with absolute discipline! But it works and you will be surprised how fast.
The same works for including pedals. Look where the movement would go, and replace it with the change.

... J-D.

[Don Brown, Sr.]

For the folks wanting to learn, take a minute of your time, and click on this link with John playing "Look At Us"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvFYj9-LU80&NR=1

After about 3:03 minutes into the song, watch his bar hand CLOSELY as you LISTEN to all of the many phrasings he's getting RIGHT THERE, never once moving his bar hand at all.

Only watch his bar hand

"A Great example of how important it is to know your steel and what your different pedal and knee combinations can do for you! "Even in using only ONE Fret"

Remember? I was telling you to stay on one fret, (or, open position) and experiment with the many different sounds, and variations that are right there!

Then, it will become quite apparent why it's so important, that you get familiar with your steel, between times of doing the Tab work.

After all, I do believe this thread was something about playing by ear. No? But before you can play by ear, you should have a real good knowledge of what makes up what, and where the sounds you need are located.

A person who plays by ear, isn't necessarily concerned with what notes make up a chord, nor what a scale is nor much of anything else concerning structure. What he does know, is his instrument he's playing, and where to get the tonal expressions that he feels at the time.

"One's who've studied music, has an advantage"

They can tell someone on the spot, exactly what notes they're playing and the name of the chord those notes are making up.

Us good ol boys never cared much about that, we played the music and let someone else take care of that end of it.

[Dean Salisbury]

In watching the video, I've noticed it in watching others as well the ease of movement that advanced players make with both their picking and bar hands.

That only comes with experience. For myself I notice that I"m going to use the term "over picking" guess it is really is hard picking not being use to the finger picks. When playing the standard guitar and not using picks, the notes are more mellow a softer tone. Hoever, I notice when using finger picks picking the steel some notes really bang out there. So that is one thing that I have to be very careful of.

Same with my bar hand, I tend to move it more instead of just taking my time. I have found one problem is the bar itself. The bar that came with the guitar is only 2.5 just making it across the strings with really no room. I never knew that they make them in different sizes. So I think a longer one would be better and more efficient. If I'm not right on the money, I'll either miss the 1st or 6th string.

This bar is the bar that my mother started in, may be the music store where she bought this ole National just gave her a small one because she is a very small, like 5'4" so. Don't know but Im going to get a bigger one anyway.

The advanced or pro players like anything else sure make it all look and sound easy.

Dean Living on S.I. NY

[basilh]

I made a living for over 50 years playing by ear initially, and learning to read later on as necessity demanded.
Reading was essential as I had cornered the session scene in Ireland during the 70's 80's and early 90's until I retired.
But the playing by ear was based on mathematics and the probability laws..

Dean, I wasn't being picky just to make my profile higher. I don't need to..It was just to HELP guide YOU along the best path..Accuracy in spelling and chordal designations will lead to an organized mind capable of making better assessments.

If you can spare the time maybe you could absorb Pat Mike and myself, not taking it too seriously and myself acting the fool as per usual (as is my BAD intonation .. The head wasn't so good that day)
On YouTube Here :-

My Tahni
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_9NvfOjM9Xg

Lovely hula Girl
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=dMbBWldZot0

Witchcraft
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=M7PsGI0dIIM

To Make you love me Kuuipo
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj7dePpco3Y

Midnight in amarillo
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wWuwl8Egum8

White Ginger blossoms
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_Qu9hGzW2GI

Ten Tiny Toes
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3MJFk-YZpb8

Little Brown Gal (AGAIN)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtQs5jtRwMk

Hula Blues on Ted's Guitar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8iLWA05qsQ

Maria Elena
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXrly-4Tz8Q


And for better quality click here :-
My Tahni

White Ginger Blossoms

Lovely hula Girl

Midnight in amarillo

To Make you love me Kuuipo

Hula Blues on a borrowed guitar

Ten Tiny Toes

Little Brown Gal

Maria Elena

There are some interesting comments about these bits of fun Here:- http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopi ... ght=brecon

Baz