Playing by Ear

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 29 Nov 2007 2:10 pm

I still approach the steel from the perpective of a rhythm guitarist who sings. When I'm learning a song on regular guitar, I get all the lyrics down on paper (in rhyme), with the chord changes on top of the word where it changes. It's then easy for me to play and sing along.

So using that method, any beginner can "chord" along to songs on the steel. Just learn your chord positions: For a song in G, learn where G, C and D are located in the places up the neck. Once you learn where chords are located, you can at least play chords along with a CD. From there you can learn to slide up and down into the chord and it sounds pretty cool. From there you can figure out what sounds good in the different pockets around each chord, even though you don't have complete knowledge of what you're doing. (Believe it or not, many "ear" players couldn't tell you "scientifically" what they're doing, but what they're playing works and sounds great.)

Granted, this is very basic and simple, but any beginner can do it with minimal music theory knowledge.

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 29 Nov 2007 2:40 pm

Thanks for your post, thie is what Iv'e been doing for a couple of weeks now getting use to the difference of chords from a standard guitar to a steel! Let me also point out that the beginner who has never played a guitar can do really the very same thing. Pick your favorite song hopefully an easy one that has just 3 or 4 chords.

Got to the internet and search for a tab for that song. If you don't kinow how give me an email and I will try to find it for you if I don't have it. My email is
dsalisbury@si.rr.com

While your doing this if your totally a beginner get your steel tuned and start finding out where the chords are. Find for example where C, Am, F and G, or G, Em, C and D and or F, Bb, C, and Dm

Many songs have been written with those chords.

good post Mike thanks

Dean living in NYC

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 29 Nov 2007 2:53 pm

Dean, I hate to seem to keep 'harping' on about accuracies, BUT,

While your doing this if your totally a beginner get your steel tuned and start finding out where the chords are. Find for example where C, Am, F and G, or G, Em, C and D and or F, Bb, C, and Dm

Would be MUCH more beneficial to a beginner if you used the "7th" designator for the dominant chords in the examples you give..
Surely the C, Am, F and G should read G7 ? Lest we mislead the learner.
And why the "Out of order" on the last example ?

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 29 Nov 2007 3:14 pm

It sure is

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 29 Nov 2007 3:24 pm

I'll stand by the G instead of G7 being the songs that I play use a G more then the G7. May be in country music which I dont' do a lot of tabing G7 However I do like the sound of G7

Dean living in NYC

Moon in Alaska · Post by **Moon in Alaska** » 29 Nov 2007 3:42 pm

Dean.... The name of the game is "hang in there" !!
I have no doubt that you will learn steel !!!!
I am 76 years old and started playing a Sears lap steel which cost $29.95 when I was 16...It goes without saying, I had a hard time learning a few songs without any help.
I have said many times, I wish we had a forum those days, of course we did not have an internet, but any help would have really helped me.
OK...
If you want to learn a little about me....click on my web site below.....
Good luck to you !!
Moon

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 29 Nov 2007 4:15 pm

Dean

don't let anyone give you a hard time about little things like spelling, as long as we can tell what someone means most of us could care less about the spelling
you have a great thread going, and i am sure many newbies are getting a lot from it

Vince Luke · Post by **Vince Luke** » 29 Nov 2007 4:28 pm

My thanks to all who've responded so far! This thread has been immensely educational for me.

David Doggett's post about all the scale notes lying within the I, IV, and V chord positions was particularly enlightening. I have a feeling that info will be instrumental (pun intended) in helping me get to the next level in unravelling the fretboard. JD Sauser's discussion of learning intervals brings me to my next snag: going up and down a string I have the advantage of seeing the visual distance as well as hearing the intervals. Seeing it really seems to help to confirm what I'm playing and then my ear catches up later. Going across strings I don't have that visual cue and that seems to confuse my little brain--anyone have any tips on developing ear familiarity with the intervals going string-to-string? Just a matter of more repetitions, I suppose. . .but can't help hoping for one more breakthrough!

Muchly appreciated,
Vince

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 29 Nov 2007 4:31 pm

OMG!

A double negative and a dangling participle in the same sentence??? Sorry, I couldn't resist.

There are lots of good ideas to learn from in this thread. Granted, some of it has been said before and maybe explained in an easier to understand manner but if it opens a door or gives someone an answer to a question they were afraid to ask then it's a good thing. It's easy to tell someone to "do a search, this has been covered before" but there's a ton of info archived on this forum and sometimes it hard to find your answer without wading through tons of other unrelated stuff. Been there, done that. My personal experience here on the forum has been a great one and I've learned more about steel guitar and music in general in the short time I've been a member than in the 30 years prior. Just keep on askin questions no matter how stupid you may think they are and use the vast knowledge that's stored in the archives to your advantage. keep on pickin!

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 29 Nov 2007 4:32 pm

But Merry Christmas to all

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 29 Nov 2007 4:38 pm

Yup I have spent over 30 years researching as I am a criminal investigator and a certified paralegal. I have had it up to my neck researching over the years. Its nice just to ask a question to save time and get an answer. Why waste the time if ya don't have to. ASK AWAY ASK AWAY.

There is never a stupid question only a stupid non responsive answer.

Back to picking!

Dean living on S.I. NY

Antolina · Post by **Antolina** » 29 Nov 2007 7:45 pm

Dean,

With the possible exception of your opus magnus, you've started a wonderful albeit unexpected thread. The information gleaned is far more valuable than the verbal exchanges. Imagine you arguing the steel with pros, experts and teacher in here. Kinda gives me a case of the warm fuzzies

Seriously, my suggestion is that you invest a few bucks in some really good instructional material such as that offered by Jeffran College. Jeff never wasted a lot of time on theory and debates. From him you'll simply learn how to play it and you'll be able to expound on your own.

I can see him now looking down with that bemused expression of his saying... "why are you making this so hard?"

The biggest problem I see with beginners (and I include myself) is we all want to sound like John Huey... NOW.

Peace love and woodstock

Lowell Whitney · Post by **Lowell Whitney** » 29 Nov 2007 7:52 pm

Dean, After reading your question about playing by ear, and the many technical, and not so technical responses, I decided to throw my two cents worth in. I am 69, have been playing music since before I was 10, and except for a few piano lessons at around 6, which I hated, have always played by ear. I was fortunate enough to come from a musically inclined family on my mother,s side. One very important factor in playing by ear is one must have some degree of natural musical ability. This is almost a must when playing steel guitar. I believe nearly everyone has some ability that can be developed. Learning the chords is the physical part, learning to hear the song is the mental part. And as Yoggi Berra once said, it's 95% mental, and the other half physical. Just play the darned thing. LW

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 29 Nov 2007 8:46 pm

Dean,
Keep on doing what you have been doing. You have brought a new type of life into this forum.

Here is a thing I really wish: That you would be able to get yourself a Pedal Steel Guitar that is tuned to E9th. I know, me and others have already harped on this but if you could, then you would be speaking the same language as the rest of us are speaking. But I will quit harping on it now.

Another thing I wish to bring to your attention: Please don't hang on too tightly to your G chord. What I mean is, don't lose sight of the G7th. The G7th is every bit as important to know as any other chord. You wrote about ..what did you call them?...family chords? aunt and uncle chords, stranger chords?
In the words of the late Jeff Newman whom we all respect: The 7th chord is the DS chord, the Do Something chord. Which means that the 7th is a chord that walks you from one chord to the other. But you don't linger on it; you Do Something..you keep moving to the chord that the 7th tells you to go to.

You know music theory so I can tell you another little discovery I have made the last couple of days. The augmented chords..they work just like the 7th chord. You can use an aug instead of a 7th! And it does really sound a bit more sophisticated in some songs.

For those of you who have E9th pedal steels, I can't tell you what notes go into the aug chord, but I can tell you that the way to use it is when you play a AB pedal 'I' chord and want to move to a IV chord, what you do is add your F lever to AB and there is your Aug to walk you to the IV

The no pedal position is a bit more tricky. To get your correct aug there, you have to push your A ped down half ways. Your IV chord is right there as soon as you push A down the rest of the way and of course add the B pedal.

I hope I have explained this the right way. Those of you who know, please correct me.
Super thread!
Bent

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 29 Nov 2007 9:18 pm

Bent, if you like the augmented chord on E9, try just the F lever alone for a diminished chord. It can sometimes substitute for a 7th, and is always pretty interesting. Take a diminished chord up the neck three frets at a time. It sounds like the villian creeping up in an old silent movie.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 30 Nov 2007 12:53 am

Just for the sake of not leading one too far astray, if the rest of the example chord sequences read 1, 6m, 4, 5 (Omit 7th), then the last sequence example SHOULD read F, Dm, Bb C..

Belonging to the school of "Pass it On" I feel I must interject at such gross misdirections, other than that I can't see any harm in the poster's "Moment of Glory".

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 30 Nov 2007 8:03 am

David Doggett wrote:Bent, if you like the augmented chord on E9, try just the F lever alone for a diminished chord. It can sometimes substitute for a 7th, and is always pretty interesting. Take a diminished chord up the neck four frets at a time. It sounds like the villian creeping up in an old silent movie.

David,
Thanks! I love those 'off' chords(or DS chords like Jeff said.)
Funny thing about that F lever chord though: Very recently I was working out the progression in 'In the Garden' as played by Dave (shakey) on Youtube, here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=5mwYovro_2A
where he uses the knee lever for this chord at 1:13, 2:24 and 2:40. I asked what this chord was called and
one answer was : In the key of F it is an A7th. The other answer was: C7thb9. And now, form your explanation it is obviously a C dim (F lever on the 8th fret)
It never ceases to amaze me how music notation changes from one chord name to another, depending on what context you are playing that chord. The person who told me A7 is as correct as you are...it depends on how you use said chord.

David this leads me to another question: You say, as Jeff instructed us, that the dim chord appears every 4 frets. Then it is the aug chord that appears every 3 frets(again, according to Jeff in my memory serves)
My question How can this be?? We all know that it takes 12 frets(one octave) for a chord to re-appear.
This is not a "need to know", but it would kinda be nice to know

Thanks in advance!

Bent

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 30 Nov 2007 8:55 am

I think David meant moving a diminished chord up the neck three frets at a time, since a dim. chord is built with stacked minor 3rds.
But I could be wrong....

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 30 Nov 2007 9:13 am

I don't just want 2 cents or a nickly or a dime I want dollars! lololol.

Today has been a busy day but finally getting back on my computer. When I mentioned the family chords, cousin chords, friend of the family chords and stranger chords. It is just another tool I was taught by friend of mine who plays the piano who is also a piano teacher. He came up with this methods and terminology from one of the professional piano players he knows. It is nothing more then one tool that he uses when a student has a problem catching on. It is nothing more then a tool as he had put it using different terminology to explain to students
where they might understand chords and have a better ability to figure out songs playing by ear.

I was going to start this last night or today. Luckily I didn’t because I have to head for New Hampshire on Sunday or Monday morning and I don’t
want to miss one response or reply. I’m sure that it will cause a lot of debate and discussion. I just don’t want to miss any of that so everyone is
going to have to wait until I come back. Lololol

Really what is playing by ear? I have been waiting for someone to may be use the term I was waiting for but NO one brought it up so I will.

In my opinion it is nothing more then being able to predict from hearing a song what chord(s) are being played and in what order. Some as we have heard
already in their own way have said:. I cannot tell you what chord I play I just know it. They know it why? Because of the years they have played the steel or any other instrument. They may know it by at some point learning theory. However, not everyone has really learned music theory. That has been one of the overwhelming statements on this thread. However, obviously others know some theory and others know a lot about theory. Is it important? Yes and No.

However, even if a person is not schooled in theory, a person from his/her time playing even though they never was taught anything about theory, they learn it here and there and they JUST KNOW it, whatever they know they don’t think of it as theory.

All players learn something about theory even though they may not know it at the time and even years to come. But even though they don’t know it,
they through their years of practicing, playing whatever adopted the skill and/or knowledge to be able to hear a note or chord and for whatever reason
JUST KNEW WHERE TO GO NEXT! They clearly know where to go even if it is by gut feeling, intuition, whatever term one wants to label it as

No big argument here. It doesn’t matter where when or how. But whatever it is it works for those advanced players. Someone can say it is just a gift they have
and they would also be right!

I’m sure once I start on the family chord method system. Some will be up in arms and immediately stating that is the long way going about it, or you are making it harder then what it really is. Both statements will be true! But understand, this it
is just one (1) tool. Nothing more and nothing less. One thing I’m sure, it will cause a lot of discussion and through all the posts will open up a wind range of debate I’m sure.

However, if it raises a lot of question that is great. If the method raises a lot of differences that is great to because people will or might learn another method in the process. Hopefully it will really open the minds of the advanced players
here and getting them to think about really how they do what they can do even though they might not be able to explain it by putting into words.

I believe it will be exciting in any event and that is why I’m going to wait until I return from my trip to New Hampshire. So being I’m going to be away for a week or week and ½ don’t leave this thread! Because it will be exciting when I get back.

So think about the terms family chords, cousin chords, friend of the family chords and stranger chords. Think about how I might be explaining them when it come to playing by ear! Only thing I’m going to say that the newbie will have to do some work, it isn’t all that hard, but it is work. But through the work I believe that the newbie will gain some knowledge.

This method was designed by a piano player for piano players. However, it has helped me through out the years to figure out songs on the regular 6 string guitar and I’m sure once I really get familiar with the steel the same method will be of great use to me
in figure out songs as well. Have I used it with the steel? NO, as I am still playing around with the steel and getting use to it and getting more comfortable with it. I’ve only had my steel for about 3 weeks now! So give me some kind of a break here. However, I do know all the major and minor chords in the tuning of C6. I don’t have the time to
spend every waking moment studying, practicing or playing the steel. So again I hope a few will give me a break here. Lololol I am playing rythem to many of the songs that I have been playing my standard 6 string to so I think I am coming along pretty well. I’m sure there will be those that just picked the thing up through it on there lap and away
they went. Wish I was that good, but I’m not.

In the mean time have fun whether or not you’re a newbie or an advanced player. Stay tuned to this channel and don’t change the channel!

Dean Living on S.I. NY

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 30 Nov 2007 9:21 am

I forgot to add this for your response Bent! Me to, I wish I could have started with an 8 or 10 peddle steel. However, I would even be in this forum if it wasn't for my mother first giving me her old 1954 National 6 string NON peddle steel. lololol

So at least I have something to start with anyway. Being in May was determined to be disabled and not being able to work any more. Now I have to pinch some pennies until my claim is accepted from Social Security. However, there is not a day that has gone by that I am not checking every where looking for peddle steel that I can afford to buy! One of these days I will have one. If for not other reason to add to my collection of guitars which I have many.

But then again, having a peddle I would be totally lost. So I will just continue to learn on this old 6 stringer. hoping for the day that peddle will be in front of me.

Dean

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 30 Nov 2007 9:44 am

Dean, I don't want to cause you to spend time unloading on me the way you did on Basil, but I just want to say, in a friendly manner, that it is a little jarring to see your repeated references to "peddle". It's a small point, but surely you wouldn't mind spelling the word right ("pedal")? Hey, it's even one letter less--quicker to type!

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 30 Nov 2007 9:57 am

With his material he sends 2 CD of back ground music for all the 60 songs. But the melody isn't played as it is just background music.

Hi Dean, Thanks for buying my song book. I just want to clarify that the 2 CDs Do have the melodies on them. There is no steel guitar on the CDs... the melody is played by the piano. BIAB piano plays the exact steel tab that appears in the book. Thanks again, DB

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 30 Nov 2007 10:24 am

Fingers are just to quick for me these days and may be I should ware my glasses more often. I really don't care about typos. If thats all I had to worry about I would be fantasic!

At least my typing gives those that really care something to knit pick about and as long as it makes ya all happy. I'll live with and just laugh here and there.

Dean

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 30 Nov 2007 10:27 am

Yea your material is great! love them all just wish I had a 10 string pedal! see I paid attention this time and stopped my finger from hitting the "d" twice!

Now working on tabing one, to get to know where the notes individually are. This will be a slow process but will be learning while pecking.

thanks again your material is really professionally done and its great!

Dean

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 30 Nov 2007 10:34 am

Oops! I was counting the starting fret. For a diminished, you move three frets to the next inversion. For an augmented, you move four frets.

Another fun chord is a minor chord with a major 7th (a half-step below the high root). Drop this chord down four frets and go back and forth. It's the film noir chord, and conjures up Alfred Hitchcock.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Playing by Ear

Thanks Mike Winter

It is a great day

I like G7 to

we now return to our program already in progress...

A little bit early

RE: Andy Sandoval

Mr. Whitney Hope you don't stop with just the 2 cents!

Re: Re: Bent Romnes comments

Finger are just quicker then the mind

Doug Beaumier