intonation problems on stage

Steve Waltz · Post by **Steve Waltz** » 15 Nov 2007 2:38 pm

I have a gut feeling and I wanted to hear if I'm out of left field.
I'm having a hard time with intonation on stage. It's a four piece band, singer plays bass, there is a tele player, drummer and me on steel. No accoustic. The bass player plays through a super small solid state amp with a single 12" speaker. The cabinet is about 6 inchs deep and about 15" high. Hollow body bass with flat wounds. I just can't hear the bass notes. The amp just sounds like c..p I hear the tump or thud and that's about it. He mutes each note with his palm to get that kind of tic tac bass sound so the note doesn't hang there very long. Without an accoustic player strumming the chord and without that bass tone I find myself having a hard time hearing a root to match my pitch to.

Question: Should I be able to get my pitch from the bass regardless of his garbage amp? I don't want to suggest to him to get a different amp if it isn't going to make any difference.I don't seem to have much of a problem when I play at home to records or (I think) when I play with an other band.

I don't think there is a magic pill for intonation issues but besides practicing properly what else could I try to do. I'm not tone def, I hear when I'm out, but I feel like sometimes I'm chasing the notes around the fretboard trying to get in pitch.

Thanks,

Steve

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 15 Nov 2007 2:55 pm

Tell the Tele player to play!

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 15 Nov 2007 3:17 pm

Man thats tough,,I would try and get the guitar player to play more chords, and really try not to bend notes during the steel parts! Maybe tell the bass player to give a good ringing note every couple of measures, or just try and use the vocals, which is dangerous. What is the Vocalist using to get the intonation,,the bass as well?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Nov 2007 3:17 pm

You might try wearing those ear molds you get from an audiologist. It keeps the sound the same but brings the overall volume down enough to hear everything clearly without overloading your ears. It works for me in battle conditions. Talking to band members about what they should or should not do hardly ever works.

I stopped getting my pitch reference from the bass a long time ago. Its better to try to hear everything and then find your spot.

One thing I would like to figure out is how John Hughey can play with a band in a bar where everybody sounds out of tune except him !

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 15 Nov 2007 3:18 pm

Bob can you give me more info on those things? I think I could use those

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Nov 2007 3:25 pm

I use Westone Labs:

http://www.earmold.com/

They are life savers !

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 15 Nov 2007 3:29 pm

Sorry Bob,,are they the monitors or something else? an ear baffle,, I got lost on their page

Dave Zirbel · Post by **Dave Zirbel** » 15 Nov 2007 3:32 pm

Hey Steve, check your fret markers. Maybe they're out of center or slightly off in scale. You never know.

Dave

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 15 Nov 2007 4:06 pm

I usually get pitch from a mix of bass, acoustic, and maybe vox.... depending on the singer. If stage volume is an issue, then Bob's ear plug solution could work... sometimes getting everything down to a homogenized mush will make it easier to find a middle ground. That doesn't make for a real exhilarating playing experience though.....

I find that discussing the situation with the bass and guitar player in a constructive way often gets results.... people usually want the band to sound good as a whole..... which makes it a lot more fun to play the gig.

I am really, really lucky to get to play with some great players, so I don't have to deal with these situations too much anymore, but I do still do a couple of low down bar band gigs... and those guys are usually happy to get a steel guitar in the band, and usually will listen to ideas that will help with the overall sound.

That said.... I did play a gig during CMJ week with a guy that sent me his recording of these Neil Young Harvest era acoustic type songs.... really nice stuff. I took the gig. Problem is he decided to go electric on the night of the gig with a '67 SG that he just got in the mail from Ebay.... and he tuned the SG down to D.... and then went back up to E with a capo. Easiest steel guitar gig I ever had.... as long as I was within 2 frets of what was on the chart, I was good.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 15 Nov 2007 4:26 pm

Bob Hoffnar wrote:I stopped getting my pitch reference from the bass a long time ago. Its better to try to hear everything and then find your spot.

Excellent advice, especially since bass is one of those instruments that's often out of tune when the dynamics change.

One thing I would like to figure out is how John Hughey can play with a band in a bar where everybody sounds out of tune except him !

Easy, you learn to (slightly) ignore everyone else, and then concentrate on your own playing. Like I said above, it helps to find that "tonal center" spot where your playing blends with everything else. But when that's impossible, you gotta blaze your own trail (and be the only thing that's in tune). Never let poor musicians pull you down to their level. Always try to bring them up to yours.

Been there, done that. $:\$

Steve Waltz · Post by **Steve Waltz** » 15 Nov 2007 4:44 pm

Dave,

I did recently check the fretboards on the sho bud and I feel silly for not doing it sooner. The E9 neck was put on at an angle and was out of wack and they were a bit worn, so not too bright. I should have the new ones in my mailbox from Tom Bradshaw today. BTW the green on my sho bud is actually blue under the fret boards.

The fret boards might be part of the problem but I seem to be able to adjust for those issues at home and I can't on stage.

Our old tele player never played chords so that didn't help. The singer can be off vocally sometimes so I'm not inclined to follow that to much.

I could try the ear things but this band isn't particularly loud. But it wouldn't hurt to try it.

I feel like if I could just hear the bass notes better and for a longer time it would help. Maybe I need to put his amp right behind me?

Roger Shackelton · Post by **Roger Shackelton** » 15 Nov 2007 4:48 pm

Would miking all the amps through the PA work to balance the sound over all?

Roger

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 15 Nov 2007 4:55 pm

You need to be further away from the bass amp. It's almost impossible to tell the pitch of a bass note when you're close to the amp, because the wavelength is longer than the distance from the speaker to your ear.

Steve Waltz · Post by **Steve Waltz** » 15 Nov 2007 5:11 pm

Bob, you are right about the distance from the speaker. I play bass for someone else and I never trust the sound of my bass when I'm standing right front of it. This bass player usually sets up on the other side of the stage and he is loud. It's just that when we are playing I can't hear the pitch of his bass very well. It's like taking a normal amp and turning the bass nob all the way down. You hear what is being played but there's no bottom end and that makes hearing the pitch hard. Maybe hearing it is just hard for me for some reason. Does anyone else have this problem?

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 15 Nov 2007 5:15 pm

Steve,
Your problem seems to be with the bass player, so, I would have a heart to heart with him about this problem. Bass players have a two fold job, in that, they have to syncopate with the drummer and be the bottom of the band. Adding a guitar player means you have to play in tune with two fretted instruments. The guitar player may not be playing chords all the time, so, that means that your bass player is the one you have to be in tune with. I think if you explained the situation, it would be resolved.
Also, I would not put his amp directly behind you. Bass amps (imho) have a tendancy to cancel out some low notes on the steel

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 15 Nov 2007 6:47 pm

I would make sure that everyone is tuning to a common source. I.E All tuning to electronic tuners, or at least using them for a common reference point. If you don't have this you will never be able to intonate because everyone is out of intonation to begin with. I've seen this happen a few times.
There is a magic bullet for intonation and I will be coming out with a DVD on it soon. Its 100% accurate for steel and works as long as everyone else is tuning commonly and accuratly.

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 15 Nov 2007 7:49 pm

I tune myself up to the bass player by habit. Tell him to let those babys ring. Sacrificing a deep sustained bass for a tic tac effect is not advantageous in a 4 piece situation. Steve is definetley not tone deaf, I've heard him sing!!

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 15 Nov 2007 9:21 pm

Steve,
I use these:

ES49 Custom Fit Earplugs

Click on Hearing protection for musicians on this page
http://www.earmold.com/content/8.html

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Nov 2007 9:24 pm

Steve, I don't think you are imagining this problem. I have had the same problem in groups without a strong rhythm guitar or keyboard. A boomy, muddy bass is hard to get a pitch from sometimes, especially down on the lowest notes. It might help if the bass had a horn in the speaker system, or 10s with metal dustcaps. That would project more of the higher overtones, and give the bass notes more character that would be easier to hear. Even new bass strings might help. Also, you don't necessarily want all the roots played on the lowest bass string with a small group.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 16 Nov 2007 5:12 pm

I stay with the singer's tonal center irrespective of the rest of the band, I feel it's my responsibility to BACK the frontman.

I'm fortunate that MOST of the guys I've worked with could sing reasonably well in tune, BUT, when they did stray I'd try and help them back on to the straight and narrow as UNOBTRUSIVELY as I could.

You really shouldn't' try and pitch to a Bass.

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 16 Nov 2007 5:39 pm

basilh wrote:I stay with the singer's tonal center irrespective of the rest of the band, I feel it's my responsibility to BACK the frontman.

What do you use as a reference during your solos?

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 16 Nov 2007 7:24 pm

Steve,

All good advice here.

BUT...I would simply have a real pow-wow with all concerned and iron out this problem.

It's called practice. Something is not right.

I know it's useless trying to talk to band members about anything at anytime. I'm going around again with this, for different reasons; but not unlike the same frustration.

I think you oughta try to at least talk it out. Egos may and probably will get bruised, but there's really no other way around it. Try to be diplomatic and kind and not, directly anyway, point fingers.

Make suggestions, and admit you may even have a hearing problem - just to smooth things over.

FWIW

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 16 Nov 2007 8:54 pm

Myself, I try to listen for the band's tonal center, and run down the middle as much as I can. Of course, it there's a large standard deviation of pitch accuracy, it can get very difficult.

If I think a band I'm working with is having intonation problems, I say so nicely. I don't lay it on anybody in particular, but suggest we just listen to recordings of ourselves and make a task for all of us to get it better. It has to be an ensemble effort. The only thing that matters to me is that we are together - not whether anybody is on some absolute pitch.

Of course, sometimes it can be difficult getting people to admit to a problem. Luckily, most of the people that I have been working with lately record periodically, including making DATs of gigs. The sound quality isn't always great, but real problems pop right out. We all want it to sound good, and when there's a problem, we all know "the tape don't lie". That goes for me too - you can't get better if you can't be honest with yourself.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 16 Nov 2007 10:00 pm

It doesn't look pretty on stage, but wearing headphones linked to the control box is one answer.

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 16 Nov 2007 10:48 pm

I had a very similar problem recently brought to light when the band I usually play with was recorded outside live- ouch! I thought after 35 years of playing I'd be past that but noooooo. Anyway- we normally used to setup in a line and the drummer is usually by my right side. No mas! Hearing each other has always been a problem but now an absolute necessity- especially when we play outside. On a different note, a well known player brought his guitar in that had been played on tons of records saying that the intonation seemed off in the higher registers and, when we measured the fretboard- it was off roughly 1/8 of an inch at the 12th fret- YEOWWW! Fortunately an easy fix but it was probably this way since its birth (so don't forget to measure this- scale length/2 measured from the center of either the roller nut or the changer fingers - or both- to the center of the 12th fret).