Preview of my new Bud

Jon Hyde · Post by **Jon Hyde** » 1 Nov 2007 4:11 pm

I'm a long ways away from being the most knowledgeable Sho Bud enthusuiast on this forum but I think the fingers are pretty much the only place you'll find pot metal on your guitar. The other parts you read about are the knee lever brackets and bellcranks and pedal rod pullers on the Super Pro era Buds. My LDG is a 75 with a 2 and 1 changer and I was very surprised to see pot metal fingers in that one too. Chris Ledrew mentioned on a different thread that both of his 2 an 2 Pro I's were pot metal fingers too. It's pretty normal I guess.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 1 Nov 2007 4:27 pm

Chris, Jon, thank you so much.

OK--here's another question---something I only just noticed (I'm not real sharp).....

I've seen this bracket, spring and rod assembly on other Bud pictures. On my guitar, the rod, at the far end (circled) just hangs there, connected to nothing. Obviously, this is not how it was meant to be but without knowing the original setup of the guitar, I wouldn't ask anyone to speculate on where it should have been connected. But what I am asking is....what is it, generally speaking? What function does it serve?

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 1 Nov 2007 5:03 pm

Jon,

That is a feel stop. It doesn't look like it is installed correctly from what I see .... it may need adjustment. Activate the lever that it is connected to that cross shaft, you will see the puller hit the brass barrel and begin to compress the spring and add resistance to the lever. you can set the resistance point for when one of the other strings on the lever hits a halfway pitch.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 1 Nov 2007 5:41 pm

Aha.

My picture is poor. Nothing about this assembly is connected to any cross shaft---it's an orphan. Just hanging there with the rod ending where it's circled. But in the foreground where it appears to interact with a puller---no, there's no connection. The 2nd string D lever is down at the other end---that's where I would expect a half-stop. So it is a bit of a mystery what this might have been hooked up to.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 1 Nov 2007 6:02 pm

Looks like someone might've had a half-stop on the LKL (or the vertical) at one point, but removed the puller and used it elsewhere for another pull. Of course, all you need is another two-hole puller and you can easily reinstall this half-stop on the RKR cross shaft. Those little things are 50-60 bucks!

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 1 Nov 2007 6:15 pm

You can see my half-stop in these photos, connected to the RKR. I wish I had a better close-up, but I think you can see here how it works. It's connected to the cross shaft by the same two-hole puller you see throughout the undercarriage. As Mike explained, the lever moves the cross shaft until comes up hard on the spring, which can be adjusted for tension by loosening the metal ring, pushing it up against the spring, and tightening it again. It can then be tuned with the barrel. At least this is the way it works for me.

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 1 Nov 2007 8:13 pm

My RKR has this half stop.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 2 Nov 2007 3:55 am

Let's hear it for two-hole pullers!!

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 2 Nov 2007 11:27 am

All I can say right now is that I've got me a goldmine here with all the info & photos. Can't thank you all enough. Soon as I figure out just what I want/need I'll talk with Mr. Coop and get me some parts. I will also be in touch with Duane or Jeff at Marrs but that's sort of on hold for now until it feels right---I'm not liking the news I'm reading about Duane.

I'll surely not trash that feeler stop hardware but in that I've never liked feeler stops and I don't have them on any of my guitars, I don't really see using it. On the other hand, I'm trying to create a real lean, mean efficient and minimal setup and you'd think that I could expand my possibilities by using it. So I'm giving it a lot of thought. Where's my beer?

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 2 Nov 2007 4:28 pm

Jon Light wrote:

...is Herbie on his way to play a Sho-Bud ?

Jim Cohen wrote:Stick a tiny piece in a pipe and see what happens?

...ah ! I get it now.

I must get some new glasses.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 4 Nov 2007 12:03 pm

As is often (always) the case, it took some mucking around to appreciate and understand what is involved with changing things around in an unfamiliar mechanism. I had assumed that I could slip off the pullers from either side and finesse my way around the rods. I hadn't understood that the lever sides of the cross shafts are peened into the hardware and not removable. And the rods, especially with that 'pickup cover' guide piece, are totally an impediment. So although I was going to try to cheat, it would appear that I am going to have to strip the undersides in order to set this up to my specs.
I admire the mechanics of this instrument at the same time that I am cussing it out for not being as tab A into slot A as I would wish it to be.

Question: do you choose the upper or lower hole of the puller the same way as you would on any all pull guitar---for the optimized pull leverage--or does alignment with the raise and lower changer holes come into play?

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 4 Nov 2007 12:43 pm

Jon, my experience on several brands is that on all-pulls the hole used on the changer makes very little difference in the leverage, throw or stiffness. It seems to work best to choose the positions desired on the bellcranks, and then just use whatever hole is most convenient on the changer finger.

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 4 Nov 2007 12:54 pm

No--my question is about choice of hole in the bellcrank. I am familiar with the physics. Just wondering if any part of the choice here in this particular case (Sho-Bud) is influenced by how you want to align the rods. It was my impression at the time of my writing that most of the raises were in the puller holes closer to the body and the lowers were in the holes farther--IOW optimally aligned with the changer holes. In re-examination I find this not to really be the case so I withdraw the question. I will be guided by the fundamental leverage concepts.
Nevermind.

Jon Hyde · Post by **Jon Hyde** » 4 Nov 2007 8:37 pm

Hey Jon, it occurs to me that you can use that 1/2 stop without buying another bellcrank. The only pic I have of mine is while I had it apart but you can see how it works. The barrel attaches to the 1/2 stop and the existing rod sits loose in the open end. When you engage the lever, the bellcrank hits the barrel for your "feel" stop...

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 9 Nov 2007 5:24 pm

Been stupid busy this whole week and I've only had a few minutes at a time to remove a shaft here, a shaft there and clean things up and mount or remove pullers as my finalized (for now) setup requires. Might have this done and playing this weekend---exciting prospect. When I first got this home I realized immediately that it was virtually unplayable, as poorly set up as it was so I really only got about 5 minutes of playing time in before I decided that nothing was going to come out of it (music) until I stripped it and set it up. But in those 5 minutes I could hear that this guitar is the most distinct sounding (unique voice) of my harem--Carter, Emmons p/p, Fessenden, BMI. I still have no idea if I am a Sho-Bud guy. We'll find out soon.

One thing that I just realized this evening is that the 'orphan' feeler stop hardware is nothing more than a correctly installed rig on the LKR except that the puller was removed. The guitar as I received it has the 'Sho-Bud' setup of F lever on LKL, E lever on LKR. My guess is that at one time LKR raised 1, lowered 6 (is that called the G lever?) and the feeler was for the 1st string half/full step raise. Which is what I will be returning this to with the E lever going to RKL as per all my guitars.
So I think that clears up any mystery. The feeler stop rod extends to right where a puller on the LKR shaft would engage it.

BTW, Jon---the thing I can't figure about your last post is......how can that work, with rod installed and extending through and beyond the puller? I could see this working if the swivel were butting into the feeler hardware but isn't it a rod end that will hit the brass screw? Seems like a pretty small thing lining up with a pretty small thing. Or am I missing something?

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 9 Nov 2007 10:11 pm

Chris and the others explain it as good as I can, but here's my pic any ways! HA!!

(photo courtesy of John Coop)

mike nolan · Post by **mike nolan** » 9 Nov 2007 11:14 pm

Jon,

The question about which hole on the puller to use is important. Factory way is to use the holes closest to the body for raises and the holes farthest away for lowers. I have seen 'Buds connected other ways in an attempt to get more travel,faster action, different string timing, etc. I always put them back the factory way, because the rodding gets kind of messy and tangled otherwise. There are other ways to balance and time pulls on the two hole mechanism..... using different spring tensions, raise helper springs, etc. You can adjust travel by using different holes where the pedal rods attach.... on either end!! There is a lot more there than initially meets the eye.... especially an eye that is accustomed to the guts of a modern guitar. If you search.... you will find some posts by Ricky Davis that address these issues.

Jon Hyde · Post by **Jon Hyde** » 9 Nov 2007 11:27 pm

Hey Jon, sorry I'm not trying to confuse you. The way mine is set up is that there is a little bit of the rod sticking out beyond the bellcrank and that sits loose inside the barrel. At the other end of the barrel, the set screw attaches to the rod connected to the 1/2 stop. 2 rods, both in the barrel but only the one going to the 1/2 stop is connected to the barrel. I made this sorry looking diagram - I hope it helps!

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 10 Nov 2007 5:14 am

Jon H. Looks like yours is the same works as mine and Chris's.!! HA!!

My pic is a little small, sorry for that. Chris I see has the same pic and it's clearer. I'm editing my post above, I see this subject has been covered plenty well enough. Jon L., bet you didn't know you had so many Shobud pals, huh? HA!!

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 10 Nov 2007 6:29 am

James--the word is "awesome".

To be able to go into this armed with the accumulated experience of all you guys....priceless.
Let me clarify matters because the thread is long and too wordy (my bad habit) for people to read every word----

Jon's tip, with photo and then with diagram, was on how to do a feeler stop without using a dedicated (extra) bell crank. I had not thought of the hardware as lining up with the precision necessary to work in any way other than having the swivel butt into the brass feeler end. But with the diagram and with further inspection of my hardware I now understand that by moving the brass part so that it extends beyond its rod, the actual pull rod can extend beyond the bellcrank swivel and be inserted into the brass part, but leaving room for it to travel, hit the rod of the feeler and activate the feeler hardware. Lousy description but if you follow it, Jon, does that sound right? Seems like it ought to work. And it means that I can move ahead without having to wait to order a bellcrank. Which is great because I am exactly one bellcrank short for my setup!

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 10 Nov 2007 6:48 am

Jon L. all you need to do is have a spare brass roller/puller to mount on whatever cross shaft(bell crank) you want to have the halfstop feel on, and slide it over to a spot that's out of the way, that gives you enough room to mount your bracket(feel stop) hardware. As you activate your knee lever, you will see it makes no difference where you mount it on your cross shaft(bell crank), it pulls just the same. Hope this helps. James

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 10 Nov 2007 7:12 am

James---thanks for walking me through it....except that I don't have a spare puller. What Jon H is showing in his photo is how to use the same puller that is pulling the changer to engage the feeler stop. The pull rod runs from the changer, through the swivel on the puller and into the brass head of the feeler rig (that has been retracted so that it extends out beyond the end of the rod of the feeler rig, providing a cavity to insert the pull rod.

I have embellished Jon's graphic a tiny bit:

Jon Hyde · Post by **Jon Hyde** » 10 Nov 2007 8:07 am

Jon, I think you've got it. I don't know if that's a standard set up but that's how mine works and I think it works well. I'm pretty sure that is a stock set up on mine. James, I think I was off drawing my little picture while everyone else was so excellently answering the question!! Still, I think mine is set up a bit differently so I think it's still an interesting conversation. I've learned so much about Sho Buds here on the forum, what a great place!

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 10 Nov 2007 8:14 am

Ah--HA!! Cool!!! Don't see why that wouldn't work, too, as long as you don't bind up---it's got to move freely, and you have room for mounting the bracket.

Jon H, I thought that's what your drawing was saying, I just had not seen that method before. I WILL file this one away in my little bag of tricks!!

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 10 Nov 2007 8:21 am

Both of you guys are posting while I'm trying to compose this post.....slow down everybody!:D

As I delve deeper I realize that the biggest liability to this method is that it requires mounting the feeler stop rig directly in line with an existing bellcrank on the cross shaft in question and by golly, that isn't easy, up by the left end of the guitar where I'm working (LKR). I may eliminate one change in order to free up a bellcrank so that I can position it where I need it. Since LKR will raise 1 and lower 6 (with the feeler stop regulating the 1st string G/G# raise) I am having a lot of trouble finding space to put the feeler where it doesn't interfere with the standard 5th & 6th string bellcranks from the A B&C pedals or the pedal hardware itself up by the rail if I line up with the 1st string. But with the dedicated bellcrank I can move it on the shaft to a clearer area. There's a whole lot more room on the right side but that doesn't do me a lot of good.

I'm also getting a headache trying to work out the best swivel holes---Mike's info above vs. other rodding/space hassles. Plus I've got a bunch of swivels that are cut in half (semi-circles) that no doubt are for rod clearance. I'm trying to figure out what to use where. Gaa!