Anybody deal with this situation?

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 17 Oct 2007 8:33 pm

I play almost 30 years. The entire time playing in bars big and small. I spent a lifetime trying to get a good tone. In the last few years I went rackmount and spent a small fortune creating my dream system. I set up tonight at a large club with a super large PA. They use ear monitors and when I got to the club I was the only one with an amp. The whole band is direct, guitar, bass rythgm guitar...everyone except me. When we went to do the sound check the guy that runs the club went direct from my system before my preamp. The sound in the mix was dry. No reverb no tone no nothing. Sounded like straight from the volume pedal. When I complained to the big dog I was told he would rather have a clean tone through the mains. He even told me if I want to use my amp at all, turn it down so it doesn't interfere. I am at wits end with this as it seems to me to be impossible to play that way. Feedback Please????

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 17 Oct 2007 9:25 pm

Yes, I have had to deal with direct-to-board situations like this. I found a Pod or other modeler to be the best solution for me. I actually like the Digitech Genesis 3 better for PSG - it's a bit cleaner and more robust-sounding - but I don't think it's anywhere near as solid and gigworthy. There are many other modeling options.

These modelers are not the same as a big wall of sound, no question. But it sure is a helluvalot better than straight out of the volume pedal into a dry board, and I can get any volume I need from the monitors.

I had to tweak for a couple of months when I got mine to get the sounds I needed, but I never leave home without it anymore. I don't always use it, but it's saved me many times when I needed to get things going at a low stage volume. For guitar, I think it's actually very good.

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 17 Oct 2007 10:07 pm

Does this club owner know what he's doing or is he a control freak. I played in a church where the pastor was a control head but didn't know what he was doing.
Impossible situation.
You should be able to come out of your amp speaker imulator and use your effects by going to the DI box. I can set my Marshall up the way I want, then turn the master all the way down and not loose my tone. Just a thought, good luck, I feel your pain.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 18 Oct 2007 2:45 am

Does he sign your check??? If so then you have the choice of either going direct or going home.

There is a direct box set up that has a speaker inside of it. I used one on a show recently and liked it. There is also a mic inside and an XLR connector on the out side. You just take the speaker output from your amp and plug it in and then take a mic cable and go direct to the board. You hear what your amp rig sounds like if it were miced. Box is called AxeTrak.

http://www.jlhproducts.com/axetrak/

There are others you can find on the net that take your speaker out and convert it to line level for direct.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 18 Oct 2007 4:42 am

I'm sure there are better methods but, ever since I switched to using NV-112s on gigs, I've had the sound-guys take a line from the XLR 'out' on the back of my amp. That way, they get the exact signal that's going to my amp's speaker. Consequently, the steel goes out of the 'mains' with my EQ and any effect that comes from my Profex 2.

I have my amp right next to me, so I can have it set at a very low volume and still get plenty of monitoring. Whatever goes to the house - good or bad - is all me!

RR
PS: That's another big 'plus' for the 112 - why didn't Peavey put those XLR outputs on their earlier steel amps, I wonder?

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 18 Oct 2007 5:42 am

Hi Ron,

There will be those that will totally disagree with me, but I prefer to run my own setup. Years ago, I played professionaly and I've also played on a bunch of big shows Branson, Nashville, State Fairs, etc. and elsewhere and I used to become so frustrated.

Recently, there are those who have tried and tried to get me to have all of the steel players run all of their steels at our annual steel guitar shows through the house system. I totally disagree, because the individuals tone or sound is not theirs. That's what identifies and or seperates the players or artists from each other.

In the old days when you heard a steel player on radio or record you could identify him. Each had a unique style and sound. Whether it be Curly Chalker, Buddy Emmons, Lloyd Green, John Hughey, Pete Drake, or even earlier players like Jerry Byrd, Speedy West, Bob White, Roy Wiggins, Don Helms, if one heard them they could identify these players. Today, alot of good players sound the same. We need individuality. Now when there is a controler and that's what most of these people are, when they are in control they will dictate your steel sounds.

Granted there are times when one has to use or go through a large system but if they are messing with my sound, I am out of there.

Unless you are starving and really need the gig, I'd say do what you want. Go elsewhere and play. However, if you really need the job and there's no other job available, I would just bite my lip and do it. Get their money and run.

I guess that I was too young and possibly stupid years ago, but I walked away from the Branson scene and all that years ago, early 1980s. I went back to school and changed professions, I have no regrets from leaving all that.

The Great Steel Player Jimmy Day once said, "Nashville is a Rat Race and the Rats are Winning!"

My thoughts agree or disagree. I wish you the best and I sure do sympathize with your plight.

Terry Wood

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 18 Oct 2007 5:44 am

Ron,

Also, I think Roger's post right before mine, has a great solution, if you choose to stay with that dilema.

Again, the best to you.

Terry

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 18 Oct 2007 5:48 am

Ron, put a piece of duct tape over the XLR jack and tell him it's broke and he'll have to mic it.

Not much he can do except not turn you up in the mains.

Curt Shoemaker · Post by **Curt Shoemaker** » 18 Oct 2007 5:53 am

What Terry said.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 18 Oct 2007 7:25 am

When a club sound man tries that with me I politely and firmly refuse. I just say absolutely not. If you are firm and polite enough about it they generally don't push it. Let the guy think you are a nut if he wants. I just say "I'm sorry but the DI will not work and I can't play like that."

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 18 Oct 2007 7:52 am

There are several issues and solutions being discussed.

For electric guitar and steel, the amp (pre and power), any effects, and speaker are part of the instrument. A pro artist will have chosen all those components carefully to ge the sound they want. So ideally the artist's preferred and perfected sound can only come from miking the amp's speaker. Awhile back there was a post by Paul Franklin about this. They did various studio comparisons, and this was the preferred method. But obviously not all venues will let you do this.

The next best solution would be something like the Axetrax, which actually has a speaker and a mike inside a box. This eliminates the "interference" your sound guy was worried about, and gives him a line to go into the board. You control your own EQ and effects. He controls your volume in the mains and monitors, and can override your EQ to some extent. He can add more reverb or delay, but can't eliminate what you have dialed in yourself.

A line out from your preamp, is next best. It lets you control your EQ and probably the amp's reverb. You lose the tone of your power amp, but for solid state amps and clean sound, that may not be a big deal. Many amps now provide speaker emulation with this method (NV112 is one I believe).

The next best solution is going line out from a multi-effects unit. You can control your EQ, effects, and use amp and speaker simulators. This is not as good as a real amp and speaker, but the simulators are getting pretty good these days.

Any of the above situations except the first one give some sort of line out that any sound man should be happy with. Going straight from your volume pedal is the worst possible solution. In addition to being an unnatural flat, full-spectrum sound for an electric instrument, it eliminates any control you have over your own EQ or effects. Many players change EQ and effects from song to song. For example, we might darken the tone and add reverb for a ballad, and brighten the tone and cut the reverb back for an up tempo number. Taking that control away from the artist is unreasonable and just plain ignorant at best, and at worst is the mark of outrageous arrogance. Might as well ask him if you can just set up the steel guitar by his sound board, so he can play it like he wants it. No one should have to put up with that. Can you imagine some clown telling Hendrix or Clapton, "Just give us your line straight from your guitar, bypassing all your amps, speakers and effects - we'll take care of all that for you." But if you can't reason with the guy, you have to decide how much you need the gig.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 18 Oct 2007 8:05 am

I'm with Bob H. on this one.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 18 Oct 2007 8:11 am

A mic is the best solution, but the price you pay in a live situation is, of course, 'spill' from the other instruments. For this reason I like that XLR option on my NV-112s.

One of these days I'm gonna get out of the Dark Ages and replace my ancient Profex 2, but that's a whole 'nuther discussion....

RR

Marty Smith · Post by **Marty Smith** » 18 Oct 2007 8:53 am

I just walk off the stage

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 18 Oct 2007 9:11 am

I appreciate all the comments. I actually own a POD XT that I bought from Tommy Dodd. I know i can use that but I would never have thought to bypass my speakers and go direct. It works pretty good in the studio but on stage i really like my two 15" Black Widow wedges that i put through my 800 watt Stewart Power Amp. Plus listening through headphones to the entire mix is a misery for me as I won't hear my tone as well. O well I guess I'll bite the bullet and do the gig. I won't be happy but I guess I'll try to be professional and take the money and run. Where is the Rat Poison??

Keith Murrow · Post by **Keith Murrow** » 18 Oct 2007 9:24 am

This has happened to me, but mostly when I play bass gigs. Same story; the sound guy insists on using a direct box straight out of the instrument. It drives me crazy. Hasn't happened yet on steel, but I hear it is getting to be a more common "request" (demand) for guitarists, too. For bass, I recently bought a SansAmp, which has speaker simulation, to try and head off some of the problem. I'm still experimenting with it, but I'm hoping it can go direct and still have decent tone so I can keep control of as much as I can. But as far as I'm concerned, there's no substitute for a speaker moving real air into a mic, even on a bass amp.

As has been mentioned, it's possible to get a reasonable direct sound from the modeling units, or even a rackmount preamp. My old Ashly instrument pre has a surprisingly warm tone when going direct if it's EQ'd correctly.

I'm just a "weekender" when it comes to playing, but I consider playing music to be art, and "my tone" is what I want to put out to the crowd. Having someone tell you that you have to go direct is like telling Michaelangelo to use spray paint instead of a brush. Since my livelihood doesn't depend on playing, I've decided to walk away from these situations in the future if the club/sound engineer gets to be a real jerk about it.

(By the way, according to Mike Brown at Peavey, the XLR DI on a Nashville 1000 does not have speaker simulation like an EDI does. It is post preamp eq. Better than nothing, but eliminates one of the most important tone components of the final sound, the speaker, in my opinion.)

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 18 Oct 2007 9:30 am

Does he make the guitar player play without stomp boxes, too?

I'd use a POD in that situation. Put it before the volume pedal if he needs to go direct from your volume pedal.

Barry Blackwood · Post by **Barry Blackwood** » 18 Oct 2007 11:05 am

Do the steelers who use the Axetrak box get a black LED for the finest tone?

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 18 Oct 2007 11:41 am

Tech ignorance here, The pod xt can be used as a poweramp? Or is it just for effects and amp sim?

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 18 Oct 2007 7:19 pm

Had one recently where they wanted me to go direct and I politely said no, how about just micing the amp. He agreed and almost seemed relieved. Good thing because the stage mix was so loud and wrong, I had to push the monitors away from me (good thing they were on wheels) to hear what was going on with the band.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 18 Oct 2007 11:27 pm

I set up tonight at a large club with a super large PA. They use ear monitors and when I got to the club I was the only one with an amp. The whole band is direct, guitar, bass rythgm guitar...everyone except me.

I also prefer a band backline. But in this situation, I'm probably not gonna win any argument to crank up several hundred watts of steel amp power to monitor myself. They're obviously trying to keep the stage volume way down with the in-ear monitors. I sometimes run a modeler into a smaller but still high-fidelity amp in a very low-volume situation like this. This little Peavey Backstage Plus with an upgraded 10" speaker works pretty well. Might even be a good place for a Deluxe Reverb, ditching the modeler.

What are they doing with the drums? Plexiglass cage? Electronic drums? It seems to me that a normal drum kit setup would mess this all up.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 19 Oct 2007 3:15 am

years back in Stamford Ct. we played a club kinda like this, they had 3 or 4 very small amps which were mic'd, they insisted we use there amps and some STOOGE was in control of the soundboard. We played there 3 nights which was the deal, we left and never looked back.

This appears to be a good scenario but the fact of the matter is it requires a SOUND GUY/GAL who knows your material and is familiar with the bands sound. Someone who just sets the knobs and then takes off and chases the girls was not my idea of a PRO SOUND GUY.

By the way, this was a pretty big club , maybe 250 folks...we had no bandstand volume at all, each monitor had everything in them, even drums, it was very difficult to find any vibe at all thru the mix in the monitor.

When we requested a different monitor mix we were told "NO", this is what the owner wants...

I equate this to setting your Steel up next to a Drum set, you both play but you have NO AMP...

Curt Langston · Post by **Curt Langston** » 19 Oct 2007 5:50 am

When I complained to the big dog I was told he would rather have a clean tone through the mains. He even told me if I want to use my amp at all, turn it down so it doesn't interfere.

Tell that doofus to pipe down.
He obviously does not realize the implications of his decision.

Guys like that get on my nerves.

he would rather have a clean tone through the mains

Maybe he would rather have another steel player.

Perhaps no steel at all.

Yes, sounds like he has issues with control.

Mike Archer · Post by **Mike Archer** » 19 Oct 2007 7:07 am

ill have to agree with Terry AND Roger
on this one
so far ive had no problem ive played big and little shows I just tell them what i want and thats it I use an amp even in the studio because my sound is my sound and it ant gonna change
I will say the nashville 112 is a wonderfull amp
for use with a big PA out front better than one is
two

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 19 Oct 2007 8:37 am

I actually prefer having the main mix in the monitors. That is the only way you will know what your mix sounds like out front. If you or anything else is not coming through in the main/monitor mix, stop the show before the next song, get a mike, and tell the sound man what you want turned up in the mix. I have seen countless top pro acts do this. And if things aren't right after that they will keep stopping the show and giving the sound man instructions.

A related problem with ignorant sound men is that they will ask you to max your volume pedal all the way down for the sound check. Never do that. Instead back your pedal off a little below where you normally have it as you attack your notes. Then you will have the volume you need for sustain and expression. Then if you cannot hear yourself in the main mix coming through the monitors, you are simply not playing loud enough with your pedal. If you are having to bottom out the pedal to hear yourself, ask for more steel in the main mix. If he gives you a unique mix and only turns up the steel in your monitor, that defeats the purpose. You are then only playing for yourself. You might as well pack up and go home.

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Anybody deal with this situation?

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