Has anyone tried this? (raise middle B to D on LKV)

[Bill Dobkins]

On my E9th neck: I hooked my 5th string to my vertical, raise it to a D. with A&B pedals down 5th string is C# push the vert lever for the half to D. Really nice little move. One more little thing I did was move my 4th to my RRL instead of my C pedal, E to F#..Now with A&B Down (Example)open no bar in A push your RRL 4th, lift your 5th vert and get a nice D. pedals and levers off for E.......

[Earnest Bovine]

I like that change too, B up to D on the 5th string, especially for country style playing. I have it on most of my guitars, but usually I can't spare a knee lever for it so I put it on a pedal for the right foot.
I think it is an old idea that was more popular 40 or 50 years ago.

[b0b]

Jimmy Day raised both B's to D on his vertical lever, according to Winnie Winston's book.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

A predictable question:

increased string breakage?

This change interests me but I'm not sure I'm willing to pay for it with a compromised 5th string (I accept the standard amount of breakage that I get. But more?). I got rid of the standard U-12 9th string B>D raise for this reason. But the application here----I perceive it as a "B pedal" on the AB position....as it were.....really appeals to me. Plus, I have a dummy P8 sitting here waiting for something to rod up to it.


btw, Bill---an edited title for this thread would be cool, for archival purposes. Otherwise your title Has anyone tried this? could apply to playing with flip-flops as aptly as raising the 5th string to D. Which would sorely disappoint anyone doing a search for tips on playing in flip-flops. Just a suggestion.

[Michael Douchette]

Pete Drake had a pedal that did that, and it also raised his fourth string to F# for a full D triad open... why, I have no idea...

[Ga McDonnell]

If the 5th is raised to D, might as well lower the 9th a whole tone to C as well.

With AB pedals down adding this pull gives the same notes at the 3rd fret as pedal 6 on C6.

On strings 9 to 5 notes are Eb,G,A,C,F which is the same as C6 open on strings 6 to 2 with pedal 6.

However, with the heavier gauge strings it doesn't have quite the same bite on E9.

[Bill Dobkins]

Well shoot I thought I'd found something new: But seriously I love the effect of riasing the 5th and then the 4th. I'll never be a speed picker because of my index finger being messed up and I don't have C6th. I just want to play the beautiful country stuff on E9th. As soon as I learn some of course.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Seems to me that anything that can be accomplished by raising the 5th string to D can also be done by moving the bar up a fret, releasing the B pedal and engaging either the E-Eb lower lower or, if you want the major chord, the E-F raise.

They guys who figured out the E9 tuning, Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day, Jimmy Crawford etc, got it right. They spent years experimenting, trying out all sorts of things, filtering our what wasn't necessary and boiling it down to what's really needed.

I frequently see people trying to come up with new changes that don't really add any capability to the tuning, but only make it possible to get a lick or chord that would normally require a bar movement, without moving the bar.

The thing to do is to learn how to get these chords and licks with the standard set up, rather than spending your energy looking for shortcuts.

The wheel has already been invented.

[Jon Light (deceased)]

Everybody stop thinking. Mike says the thinking has been done for them.

How come every time someone thinks out loud here, someone comes along and decides that the question is about them and their opinion of the idea?
I can think of several ways and places to get similar sounds and movement. So what. I am interested in this change. Am I supposed to care that Mike P is the new authority? It never fails that a self-identified progressive mind falls into a personal orthodoxy and uses it to annoy other people.

Filtering what wasn't necessary?

What rot. I don't believe a single one of the people you name would stand behind such a dead-end statement.

[Tom Gorr]

I frequently see people trying to come up with new changes that don't really add any capability to the tuning....

I put a (+2) 5th string raise on my vertical (U12), and that's all that lever has, and I wouldn't part with it for anything.

Can you figure out why ?

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Gee Jon. we're talking about KNEE LEVERS. From your reaction one would think I personally insulted you or one of your loved ones.

You are free to disagree with me all you want, but why all the anger and hostility?

[Bill Dobkins]

It seems that every time I post something, negitave comments insues. I'm getting to the point of being paranoid and maybe just quit posting anything. I posted,,The Anatomy Of a Country Song. Not one person explained thier opinion of what it takes to make a country song, only argument's about classic and new country. One guy even wanted to know why I have a right to make such a statement. Even said I showed disrespect for my fellow Steelers. What is wrong with you people ? Is this forum just about A- HOLE"S and know it all's. I have a lot to learn, Thats why I joined. I've been playing Steel for about 8 months and have already been invited to some shows next year.I'm very proud of what I have accomplished on this complicated instrument. And Mike P the wheel is forever being invented, Austin Stewart and Tyler Hall are evidence of that.Ever heard of them. So you experts just wallow in you stagnat little world. I prefer to be Inovative.

[Al Terhune]

Gee Jon. we're talking about KNEE LEVERS. From your reaction one would think I personally insulted you or one of your loved ones.

You are free to disagree with me all you want, but why all the anger and hostility?

Well, the way I see it Mike, is that we're not just talking about knee levers. We're talking about someone experimenting and you telling him the wheel has already been invented. That's a personal insult. If you don't have something productive to say, why say it? I think you, of all people, have defended there are many ways to get to the same phrase, so why does that not apply here?

Edited to add: Live up to your Einstein quote.

[b0b]

Pete Drake had a pedal that did that, and it also raised his fourth string to F# for a full D triad open... why, I have no idea...

As I recall, it was Pete Drake's solution to the same problem that Lloyd Green solved with the F lever. As the story goes, Pete came up with this change in a dream. Lloyd heard about it and realized that the same thing could be accomplished more simply and with less mechanical stress if you simply moved the bar up a fret and raised the E string to F.

Someone can correct me if I have the details wrong.

BTW, I've updated the title of this topic to more accurately reflect its content.

[Bill Dobkins]

Thanks for the change BOB, You can get a simular change with the F LVR but not the same and not as easy. When you raise the 5th and the 4th together or slowly back either or both apart it is awesome. The only way I can explain it is to try it. If I could post sound bites I would so you could hear it.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

I have a lot to learn, Thats why I joined.

And more experienced players like me have a lot to teach you. I posted a specific way to achieve the same results that you are trying to achieve without the addition of extra, and in my opinion unnecessary levers. Perhaps you'd be better off trying out what I suggested and see if it works for you instead of getting angry.

[Bill Dobkins]

Mike, I do know all the changes you speak of. I find them complicated compared to just simply riasing my V lever. It is quick ,clean and easier to control. every one owes it to them selve's to try it. I don't know of any way to use a 4th raise with a F lever and get the effect that this has.
Mike my anger is more frustation and not directed at just you. There are certian people on here that do nothing but put people down and confuse new comer's.
I am not stupid, in fact I'm very inovative. Casey Lowmiller brought his Lagarritt to the Kansas show and I set it up for him and cured some of his problems. Other people want me to work on their Steels. I just don't have time. The point I'm trying to make is I don't like to be talked down to. Just like you or any one else I want respect. Maybe I'm new to Steel but I've been in the music business for a long time.

[b0b]

Thanks for the change BOB, You can get a simular change with the F LVR but not the same and not as easy. When you raise the 5th and the 4th together or slowly back either or both apart it is awesome. The only way I can explain it is to try it. If I could post sound bites I would so you could hear it.

This is why I raise and lower my E's on opposite knees. Engaging one while releasing the other gives me the full step change that you are getting one fret lower with an E to F# lever.

Also notice that, at the fret where you are raising C# to D, you could instead raise your 2nd string from C# (double-lowered) to D (lowered), and use your 3rd pedal to get the E to F#. So you see that on a standard E9th, you have two alternatives that give you exactly the same notes as the levers you're suggesting.

The reason I bring it up is this: when you get addicted to non-standard knee levers, you use up knee lever positions that you will eventually want to use for more standard changes. I know this because I have a non-standard copedent myself, and I deeply regret having gone down that path. I had to put my 5th string lower on a pedal, severely limiting its usefulness.

I'm not saying "don't think". I'm just asking you to consider alternatives. When Pete and Lloyd came up with two different ways of doing the same thing, thousands of steel players decided that Lloyd's solution was the more versatile one. Many of us can't get our brains to work more than 5 knee levers. Pick them carefully!

[Bill Dobkins]

Thanks for the change BOB, You can get a simular change with the F LVR but not the same and not as easy. When you raise the 5th and the 4th together or slowly back either or both apart it is awesome. The only way I can explain it is to try it. If I could post sound bites I would so you could hear it.

This is why I raise and lower my E's on opposite knees

. Engaging one while releasing the other gives me the full step change that you are getting one fret lower with an E to F# lever.

Also notice that, at the fret where you are raising C# to D, you could instead raise your 2nd string from C# (double-lowered) to D (lowered), and use your 3rd pedal to get the E to F#. So you see that on a standard E9th, you have two alternatives that give you exactly the same notes as the levers you're suggesting.

The reason I bring it up is this: when you get addicted to non-standard knee levers, you use up knee lever positions that you will eventually want to use for more standard changes. I know this because I have a non-standard copedent myself, and I deeply regret having gone down that path. I had to put my 5th string lower on a pedal, severely limiting its usefulness.

I'm not saying "don't think". I'm just asking you to consider alternatives. When Pete and Lloyd came up with two different ways of doing the same thing, thousands of steel players decided that Lloyd's solution was the more versatile one. Many of us can't get our brains to work more than 5 knee levers. Pick them carefully!

So how do you have your levers set up ?

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Bill. I did not mean to be disrespectful, and I apologize if I came off that way. But I see people with relatively little experience who think that the answer to finding that elusive lick is to add another pedal or knee lever, when it can be found by using the standard pedals and levers and moving the bar, and I honestly believe that this is a mistake.

I have to admit that I did the same thing myself when I first started playing. But as I got more experienced, I learned how to get the same sounds with the standard pedals and knee levers and took off a bunch of stuff.

This link
http://www.perlowinmusic.com/DebussyAft ... faFaun.mp3
is to my recording of Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun. The reason I'm posting it is that it was all done on the E9 side of my U-12. My E9 changes are all the standard ones, and the only weird thing about my tuning is that I tune my 2nd string to C# and raise it instead of the usual D# being lowered, and my B-Bb change is on a wrist lever instead of a knee.

If you have questions, I'll be happy to answer them via E-mail.

[Bill Dobkins]

Thanks Mike, It take a better man to say he's sorry than one who stays silent. I'm a person who wants to know how something works. With Steel i think is very important to understand how they work. I have spent many hours with mine upside down, but I've always been mechanicaly inclined. I'm sure the time will come when i'll regret some things I've done. But for now I really like the change and will play with it for a while. And I certianly didn't mean to cause an argument. Thanks for understanding....

[Clyde Mattocks]

I've had and used this change since the sixties, and
now I learn I've been doing it all wrong. Do I have to start all over, or can I just go back to the day I put this change on?

[Bill Dobkins]

I've had and used this change since the sixties, and
now I learn I've been doing it all wrong. Do I have to start all over, or can I just go back to the day I put this change on?

Clyde, do you have it on a lever or pedal ?
I say what ever turns your crank stay with it, and enjoy...

[b0b]

So how do you have your levers set up ?

My copedent is here.

I just made a little recording that I think simulates your new levers:

http://soundhost.net/b0b/AB5-AF6.mp3

This was all played at the 5th and 6th frets, using the standard E levers at the 6th fret. With your two extra levers you can do it all at the 5th fret, correct?

[Bill Dobkins]

Bob, I could barely hear it but it sounds right.