2nd String Alternatives

[Jim Eller]

Seeing I don't use the second string very much, I was wondering if there are any useful alternative tunings?

Please keep the KISS theory in mind.

Thanks,
Jim

[Larry Bell]

The 2nd string D# was an innovation that Buddy Emmons added, first on the lower two strings, later moved to the top of the tuning, when 10 string guitars were first used in the 60s. It is there for a very good reason -- several of them actually. It is to your advantage to learn to use this string. It is important to be able to move between C# / D / and D#. All three notes are important scale tones in the open E, A, and C# Major chords / scales. If you have a hard time figuring it out on your own, get a teacher to work with you on that specific topic.

You mention alternative tunings -- do you not play standard country E9? It is a staple of many country pickers' playing. My suggestion is to learn it before trying to reinvent a well designed wheel.

[Larry Strawn]

Jim,

I'll second Larrys advice.

Like you, I felt I didn't use that string and the pulls on it that much until a few weeks ago. Due to equipment breakage during a gig I temporarly lost the use of the knee lever lowering the 2nd string, I found out then just how much I had come to rely on the 2nd string, and the lowers on it.

Once again I would suggest spending more time exploring the use of this string. JMO

Larry

[Fred Glave]

I think everyone is thrown off a bit by the 2nd string and the position that it takes in the line-up of strings. It is an absolute necessity! It is placed in the 2nd position to make it easier to hit using the back stroke of the finger pick when running up and down a scale. Once you've figured it out you won't think the same about it.

[b0b]

You could do like the Sacred Steel guys do: put a D string between the E and B instead. I don't really recommend it because of the lack of instructional material, but it does provide the same notes in a way that's a bit easier to understand.

I tried it for a while and found that it messed up my phrasing, especially in country music. I've been playing E9th too long to change now.

[Jerry Hayes R.I.P.]

I've played E9th for many years now and use a C# on my second string as does Weldon Myrick, Mike Perlowin, and others including the late Hal Rugg. The late Jimmy Crawford as well as Terry Bethel use a D for the second string.

I have a knee lever that raises it to D# if needed but I don't really use it much. Try this little exercise. Play strings 5 2 4 1 3 1 4 2 5 in that order with your 2nd string tuned to D#.... Then do it again with your 4th string lowered to D#.

Then tune your 2nd string to C# and do the same thing again with and without your "E" knee lever and see what you like best.

My personal hero (Ralph Mooney) doesn't use either D# or C# or D for his second string, it's E because his 1st string is the high G#.

All that said, I don't believe any way is actually better than another to tune your 2nd string. It all depends on what you want to do with your guitar. I was a working six string lead player for years before I got serious on steel and my steel is set up so I can do most of my guitar things on it, that's also the reason I play a 12 string as opposed to the more common 10 string tuning. You should experiment and try other things. Hell, Buddy Emmons the acknowledged master of our instrument still experiments with his guitar. I believe that's one reason why he's so great, he never stops learning or trying new things, if you stop learning you might as well hang it up!.......JH in Va.

[Ben Jones]

It is placed in the 2nd position to make it easier to hit using the back stroke of the finger pick when running up and down a scale.

back stroke on finger picks??
wow didnt know that was a possibility
do you mean actually using the back of a finger pick to strike the string (which would seem like a real string breaker to me...) or something else?

I need to figure this string out too..so far it hasnt sunk in yet. Some have said its valuable in rock and blues licks but i just dont get it yet.

Man I need to find a teacher here in seattle...I am just not progressing like i want to.

[Robert Harper]

I, as a limited ability player, admit I dont use either of these strings often. I have two song in my very limited reprotare that uses the seconfd string and a few using the 7th. Theorethically I see the usage. But the problem becomes if it isn't used much it doesn't become a part of muscle memory or habit and then it is necessay to pause or hesitate or if you are like me ADHD kicks in and well you know. I to am curious about the backword lick on the second string. Also I have tried the no pick work. I think it produces a great tone, but once again muscle memory or habit kicks in and I have to think about the lick. Am I wierd? I would like to innovate some. ell, I would like to play C6, Drobro, Fiddle, Harmonica universal 12, I must be insane. change the strings to what you want. As a song I heard the other night said "do what you do well" Bobby Cox was plying on that Sat night on Midwest Country and he does what he does well

[Kevin Hatton]

That second string is extremely important to me. I use it alot lowered to D for the dominant 7th sound. Lowered to C# gets some real nice banjo rolls. I wish some one would come out with a course on the second string for the steel community. That and the ninth are probably the most misunderstood for steelers.

[Tony Prior]

It would make much more sense to tune the 2nd string to a D then to remove it from the mix. Having the 4 notes available on the 2nd string (raise, natural, and two lowers)isn't there by accident. It doesn't matter how you get those 4 note as long as you can. To remove them because you are not sure how to use them I feel is a mistake.

I think another big issue is the pesky half stop which for the most part is not always accurate so we may avoid the string or the half stop note(D) because when we go for it, it ain't there ! Some other note shows up in it's place, and it is not pretty.

On my Carter , which was pretty good to begin with, I decided not to give in, I studied the Emmons Legrande 2nd sting half stop system and then went to Lowes and walked around looking for STUFF that would work. Well, a few small angle brackets, springs, stop nuts and threaded stock made the chore possible.

here's what I came up with and the 1/2 stop is now VERY positive.The RKR STOPS cold and I need to exert force to go to the 2nd lower. The new added spring slightly compresses for the half stop but is really stiff to get to the full tone stop.



Another easy way to do this on a D10 is to add the 2nd string STOP to one of the fat C6th strings for the SPRING tension.That would most likely require manufacturers parts to do it but it is clean and simple. My add on is crude but very functional.

I realize the topic is about the actual notes, but I also feel that in many instances we avoid the notes ,especially the most important half stop lower, because it may not always be accurate. Yes some guitars are better at this than others, but pretty much ALL the Steels I have played have a similar issue with the half stop and the PLAYER works around the Instruments capabilities.

tp

[Jim Eller]

Well....it looks as though I had better just learn to use it.

Anyone have any standard(simple) licks tabbed out that it can be used in?

Thanks,
Jim

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

Well....it looks as though I had better just learn to use it.

Anyone have any standard(simple) licks tabbed out that it can be used in?

Thanks,
Jim

No tab, but here's a scale pattern.

Activate your A pedal and the E raise knee lever, then with your middle finger playing the first string, your index on the second, and your thumb for strings 3,4,and 5, play the strings in this order: 5, 2, 4, 1, 3, 1, 4, 2, 5.

The pattern works for minor scales too if you release the E-raise.

[George Kimery]

Jim, that 2nd string (and first too) are important "missing links" in the classic country stuff that you play. I will be more than glad to get with you and see if I can shed some light on the subject. For what you play, I can't imagine any other string that you would substitue being as useful.

[Brint Hannay]

If you can deal with more than four knee levers, the half-stop problem can be avoided by tuning the 2nd string to D, raising it to D# on one lever and lowering it to C# on another, as Jimmie Crawford did. (I've never had the E raise on the 2nd string, and I don't miss it.)

Personally, (and all these things are personal preferences), I find the D and D# notes constantly useful, the C# more dispensable, though it's nice to have. But I would still tune the open string to D because it's the note I use most often, and offers things not available otherwise (D# is, of course, available with the 4th string lower--except on Lloyd's guitar!).

[Jim Eller]

Thanks George.

If yer headin' fer Knoxville give me a hollar.

Jim

[Jerry Hayes R.I.P.]

Hey Jim, that little riff that Mike P. posted if used in the key of A would be part of the bridge of "Orange Blossom Special". If you'll go to the 8th fret using the A pedal and F lever with your 2nd string tuned to the normal D# you'll hear it....JH in Va.

[Roger Edgington]

I'm with Kevin. I use my D string as well as the 9th a lot too. Without the D you might as well play an 8 string.

[Rick Winfield]

In the Winston & Keith book there are quite a few tasty little licks using the AB pedals and 2,3,5. Also using the D lever with 1,2, and 2,3 w/BC. I don't have the book in front of me right now,(or a steel) so please correct me if I'm in error, and you are familiar with these references.

[b0b]

Well....it looks as though I had better just learn to use it.

Anyone have any standard(simple) licks tabbed out that it can be used in?

Scales are the foundation of licks. Here are some exercises I worked out (in the key of C) for scales on the high strings.

'b' means flat the string, '#' means raise it a half step, and 'X' means raise it a full step.
[tab]F#_________1___________3___________4#__________6___________8________
D#___1___________3b__________4___________6___________8______________
G#____________1___________3___________4___________6___________8_____
E ______1___________3___________4#__________6#__________8___________
B __________________________________________________________________
e f g a f g a b g a b c a b c d b c d e

F#____________9#______________11______________13____________________
D#____9_______________11______________13____________________________
G#________________9_______________11______________13________________
E ________9#______________11#_____________13________________________
B __________________________________________________________________
c d e f d e f g e f g a


F#____________1___________3___________4#__________6___________8_____
D#______1___________3b__________4___________6___________8___________
G#__________________________________________________________________
E _________1___________3___________4#__________6#__________8________
B ___1X__________3X__________4X__________6X__________8X_____________
d e f g e f g a f g a b g a b c a b c d

F#_______________10______________11______________13_________________
D#_______10b_____________11______________13_________________________
G#__________________________________________________________________
E ___________10______________11#_____________13_____________________
B ___10X_____________11X_____________13X____________________________
b c d e c d e f d e f g
[/tab]

[Jim Eller]

Thanks b0b!!

[b0b]

The 4th fret position is the trickiest. It's like the F chord position using pedals A+F. The first string note must be raised to fit into the scale, and some people (including me) don't have that change.

You can get those same notes at the 5th fret, though, if you can lower the 2nd and 3rd strings together and half-pedal the 5th string.

I think that the scale position one interval up from the V chord is the hardest position on the E9th to master. I've been working on it for years.

[Jerry Hayes R.I.P.]

Years ago there was a series of articles called "Trappin' Squirrels" by a dude who called himself Catfish John or something like that. I believe they dealt with the use of the second string and sometimes the first. I can't remember what publication they were in, it might have been the PSGA Newsletter but I'm not sure. Does anyone know if they were ever compiled together in a course or anything?.....JH in Va.

[Gary Arnold]

“Catfish” John Greer

Trappin' Squirrels - E9th Tuning
Have you ever wondered what you are supposed to use the 1st, 2nd, 7th and 9th strings on the E9th neck for? Well, wonder no more "Catfish" John will show you how to utilize those strings and to specifically use the 2nd string. You will also develop a thought pattern for playing the E9th neck so that you can get the most out of the tuning. Book, Record and Cassette of the record. Your Cost $ 9.95 plus shipping and handling. Shipping weight 1 Lb.

:http://www.frenchyspedalsteel.com/Instruction.htm
I hope this helps...........gary