Lessons online?

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 27 Aug 2007 4:05 am

Gary, I know that the mic that is built in to the webcam would be fine if somebody has an amp turned up. What about those who would rather NOT have an amp on, and need to go direct? As I stated earlier, playing at night or in a small apartment might require a direct line. There may be other situations. Behringer makes a small 4 channel mixer that might do the trick. I'm trying to find a low-cost solution to this problem. I don't think this is an insurmountable setup; it's just going to take a little while to find the optimum equipment without spending a bundle. Once I find it, I'll try it out, find somebody else who has a similar setup, and write back with the results. I'm hoping to be able to set something up that would cost less than $250 (still a good chunk of cash, but well worth it for what it would accomplish). The final phase is figuring out the best way to record the whole lesson for review. Let's see if we can find an interface that will allow a voice and a guitar and a cam at the same time!

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 27 Aug 2007 4:13 am

Hey! It just occured to me (duh!)...some of you computer gurus might know the answer to this: would a USB fast port hub work in this situation? Webcam (with headset), and guitar with USB connection, all going into one hub, then to Skype...what do you think?

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 27 Aug 2007 4:28 am

Sandy, I can assure you if the amp volume is at the same level as your conversation, the sound of a flushing toilet could possibly drown you both out. There is no need to incur additional expense for this set up, the volume needed to be heard through your web cam mic will be no louder than your TV or radio. You seem to set in blowing some dough, my pocket is wide open.

Why don't you purchase the web cam I suggested, install her and call me up? You will see what the dilly-0 is. I look at this way, you want to attract new business by not suggestion an elaborate set for new students. Set the example: Simple Stupid! Just like one of those easy to use high tech PHD cameras. (PHD: push here dummy)
gary LeeeEeeeee

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 27 Aug 2007 4:54 am

I found this interesting bit of information:

Installing a USB hub is simply a job of connecting the hub itself, AC adapter and USB cable, but if you already have a mix of Hi-Speed USB and classic USB devices, getting them to coexist could be a challenge. The reason is that two isochronous devices (real-time video & audio) can already saturate the classic speed bus. If you need a couple of different classic USB devices to operate simultaneously, multi-transaction translator USB hubs are crucial as they allocate dedicated 12Mbps bandwidth.

So...it looks like what I need is called a Multi-TT USB hub. Upon further searching, I found a cool piece of equipment that fulfills the job: IOGEAR MicroHub GUH274 USB Hub, selling for $20.61 through www.TheNerds.net. I'll keep on looking, but it seems that this might be the answer to the problem of hooking up all of the equipment at the same time (using the guitar interface, of course.) I'm still well within my stated budget so far!

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 27 Aug 2007 5:12 am

Gary, I understand that using JUST the mic that's integrated with the webcam is sufficient. I'm a great believer in the "K-I-S-S" rule (Keep It Simple, Stupid), but I also know that, in my case anyway, playing even at TV level after 10pm at night would not be cool, at least up here where my computer is set up. I live in a condo, where there are specific by-laws that prohibit any musical instrument practicing past a certain amount of time, and certainly none after 10pm. Also, the by-laws prohibit music lessons that can be heard on the premises. Why do I live here? I'm on the ocean, it's gorgeous, and I have access to technology that will allow me to get around the rules. There are probably some other players who have similar situations where they can't operate an amplifier in their homes. I use headphones all the time, enabling me to be able to practice whenever I like, for however long I like, and at whatever volume I like. In addition, having a setup where the guitar goes directly into the USB hub will save space, and provide privacy when trying to learn something new (how many people can effectively practice a lick or a run with an audience?). If this USB Hub is able to do the trick for $20, the guitar interface is about $40, and a good webcam is about $100, then we're talking a great private setup for well under $200 that would enable valuable musical returns far beyond the initial cost. Considering the cost of guitar, accessories, and amp, I think this is an incredible value. I am hoping to get it set up soon, and be able to report back with a successful trial run.

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 27 Aug 2007 5:33 am

Just one more note: I found this IOGEAR Multi-TT USB hub at www.wolfcamera.com for $17.69, with $6.95 shipping. Only $24.64 total!!! Now, to find my chosen webcam at the best price, and I should be ready to rock in a week or so. Stay tuned!

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 27 Aug 2007 8:36 am

Wouldn't a simple head set without a mic work with the webcam? I do a lot of family communicating with my family all over the country using my webcam. My head set, a Microsoft gaming headset, has a hub that switches the external speakers on and off. In other words, I can listen through the gaming head set only; or, through my surround sound computer speakers.

Just a thought.

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 27 Aug 2007 9:25 am

Yes, Les, I would think that using just a set of headphones would be fine (correct me if I'm wrong here). The webcam's mic would pick up anything you'd want to say. Also, of course, if your amp is set up right next to you there at the computer, you could certainly use it to send what you're playing. Personally, I don't want to lug my amp up two flights of stairs to my computer, and also, the amp would take up space making this room REALLY crowded, to say nothing of lugging it back down to the basement after using the webcam. I have a Sho-Bud S10 that I'd set up by the computer that would be a lot easier to deal with, weight- and space-wise than my Emmons D10.
I'm trying to make a setup that would be easy, convenient, and relatively inexpensive. I just found a Logitech Quickcam Pro 9000 for $85.86 (free shipping, and no tax) at www.AMatterofFax.com, so I'm still staying well below my limit of $250 for the entire setup (that budget is less than what it would cost to get a good little practice amp!). I think the final total will be well below $200.

I think using a set of headphones would be very important to eliminate feedback. Whether a mic on the headset or the mic on the webcam is better than the other, I don't know.

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 27 Aug 2007 12:15 pm

Ok, so now I have the last piece of the setup I want. I found an excellent headset, Plantronics DSP-500 (Google it to see what a great headset it is; normally goes for around $85.00) that I got from the Plantronics site for $24.95 plus $7.95 shipping for a total of $32.90. I have to add it all up, but I can tell you that I will have an excellent webcam setup, including high-end headset, hub multi-TT port and guitar interface for a smidge over $180.00. This might be a little pricey for some, but it's still less than what we pay for some accessories! How much have you put out for CD courses? Once I have everything here (within a week), set it up, and test it for convenience and clarity, I'll report back. This is really exciting!

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 27 Aug 2007 2:25 pm

Now, who is going to convince some of the 'biggies' to share some wisdom, and technique, with us ?
Interesting thread.......

Regards,
Nic

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 27 Aug 2007 3:25 pm

Biggies would be nice of course.
But the idea can apply to this scenario also:
Sandy posts a message:I need some tutoring in pick blocking
Nic du Toit answers her and says: I have a neat routine worked out for that. Gimme a call on Skype and I'll teach you.

This idea would work great with those of us who are not "biggies" per se, but we just have a burning desire to share.
And this is just one example. The possibilities are just about endless.

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 27 Aug 2007 6:27 pm

You are SO RIGHT, Bent!!! That is EXACTLY what I was thinking! Of course, having a "name" to learn from for some lessons would be exciting and amazing. The potential to be able to have a world-wide communication tool that enables us to literally share, critique, and personally encourage on a one-to-one basis is simply priceless. It brings the community closer, and opens doors to ideas and perceptions. Think of all the musical paradigm shifts! There's just no substitute for having somebody who KNOWS check out what you're doing, and give constructive suggestions. Instant feedback.

Awesome!

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 27 Aug 2007 7:18 pm

I am not sure it would work the way Bent suggests. First, There is a matter of payment, unless it was prearranged that certain people get paid a predetermined rate. If some one like Bobbe Seymore, or the likes, offered his services in such a manner, the poor guy would be inundated with posters seeking his advice and teaching.

I think a contract type set up would have to be worked out or, possibly a pre-arranged set number of lessons over a given time.

Could you imagine what would happen if Buddy Emmons offered to help teach people in here and he gave out his MSN or SKYPE ID on this forum?

Terry Farmer · Post by **Terry Farmer** » 27 Aug 2007 7:58 pm

Sandy, I'm interested in how this goes. If the topic dies down please send me an email with the latest developements. Also, another option for your interface may be a Roland micro cube or Vox da5. They have line out/speaker off modes that would solve your portability issue and need for quiet. Just thinking out loud. Good Luck.

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 28 Aug 2007 5:21 am

another option for your interface may be a Roland micro cube or Vox da5. They have line out/speaker off modes that would solve your portability issue and need for quiet.

The Vox DA5 looks like a very cool little practice amp! I have a little Fender Champ that I have used on occasion for those situations. I'm not certain that an amp with a line out would work in this case, unless it had a USB-2 connector, which neither of these amps have. I'm hoping that the guitar interface I purchased will be the answer. For someone who lives in a house and can play at any hour through an amp, the interface would be an extravagance, unless they wanted to record online for virtual jam sessions. My "vision", if you will, is to have an S10 set up to play next to my computer, interfaced into a high-speed hub along with a headset. The webcam and computer monitor would be placed right in front of me. Very simple setup, minimal space taken, and completely silent and private. If enough steelers had this setup, I could envision a virtual classroom session, where an instructor could have a number of students, be able to provide feedback to each student, and be able to exchange ideas between all. This is already done on college courses online. At this point, I'm not sure how it's physically set up, but it wouldn't be difficult to get that information. For the immediate future, I'm just looking to make a one-on-one connection. Several players have expressed great interest in this project, and so with a little time and experimenting, we should be able to come up with a good report on viability, apparent drawbacks, equipment comparisons, approximate costs, and the convenience factors, among others. I truly believe this is the wave of the future, and as more people utilize the webcam as a communication tool, the technology will rise to meet consumer needs. My gosh, there are surgeons who are doing virtual operations thousands of miles away from the patient. What I'm proposing here is well within the technological reach of the average person. Obviously, having DSL or Broadband is a prerequisite, as is having plenty of RAM available. This is within the system parameters of the average computer sold today.
As an added note, it will be interesting to see what kind of response an online teacher will get. The convenience of it all is simply amazing. No travel time, no limit on time frames, no location limitations (presumeably, a teacher could bring the cam and hookups with a laptop and teach while on the road!), and best of all, access to teachers that would be otherwise all but impossible for many players. Not just teachers, but other players as well, sharing ideas on a real-time basis. This wouldn't put CD courses or YouTube demos out of business -- they have their own function. This is a step farther, more personal and immediate. Who knows? Maybe sometime in the near future, we'll have holographic teachers who sit in front of us, demonstrating an intro, while we can hover and check out hand positions from a 3-D perspective! It's not that far out.
Finally, any instructor who invites students to participate should expect responses, maybe even an onslaught. Wouldn't it be worse if a teacher asked for students, and nobody replied? From an instructor's standpoint, I think it'd be terrific to teach someone from Oregon, then give a lesson to somebody from Italy, then a lesson for a student from New York. How cool is that?!!!

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 28 Aug 2007 7:02 pm

Les Anderson wrote:I am not sure it would work the way Bent suggests. First, There is a matter of payment,

Les I believe that you did not read my post very thoroughly.
I wrote: Biggies would be nice BUT...etc
Then you go on to prove your point with the mention of BE and BS, two of the biggest biggies. My suggestion, if you had read it in proper context, was by way of an example of someone having a question, puts this question out to the masses and someone volunteers their services. Totally easy and totally workable, and not a mention by me of inundating Emmons with requests.

When a player feels he has what it takes to give lessons for monetary gain, this would be the easiest thing to get set up via paypal by telling the prospective student: My fee is XX per hour. Here's what I feel capable of teaching you. Lessons will start as soon as I see $x from you in my paypal account. SIMPLE.

The biggest roadblock to this idea is the person who does not understand the simplicity of this idea, and does not care to sit down and learn about it.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 28 Aug 2007 7:27 pm

Sandy, I read your last post and just wanted to make you aware of Skype's limitations. Now this is my experience only and I could be wrong...

I think it is limitless how many can participate in an audio conference. But my experience has been that the video part will be disabled. Video works only for a one-to-one person call.

Now this might be because I only have the free version of Skype and sometimes free software has built in "crippling" like this.

Everybody, look into this and correct me if I am wrong.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 28 Aug 2007 9:10 pm

I have been chastized.

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 29 Aug 2007 12:28 am

First off; We should all applaud Sandy for her tireless efforts to research and share with us her findings re trying to set this up.
When this thread started I said to myself,'this will be awesome....' I quite often get asked 'how did you do such and such a section in this song ?'......now I can show that person in real time how I did it, as well as send him/her the tab. I suppose one could record such 'face-to-face' encounters ? The payment logistics can easily be worked out once that actual process is up and running.
If the odd person would contact me for a short 'explain' session, I would not even think of charging for that.........the honour in helping a fellow steeler would be payment enough.
And as for being 'inundated' with calls for help; like in Microsoft Outlook, just create another ID for this purpose. It's then up to you whether to answer or not.
Regards,
Nic
Nic du Toit

_______Click on any CD to listen to it's Music_______

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 29 Aug 2007 3:59 am

I think it is limitless how many can participate in an audio conference... Video works only for a one-to-one person call.

Audio conference calls to other Skype users are limited to the host and nine other participants. Conference calls to landlines (the PSTN, actually) are limited to the host and four other participants. You are correct that video is limited to two participants.

You can also create a Skypecast, which is a public audio-only conference with up to 100 participants. A Skypecast, unlike a conference call, is available to anyone who joins; you do not add participants yourself.

Now this might be because I only have the free version of Skype and sometimes free software has built in "crippling" like this.

There is no paid version of the Skype software. It is the same version no matter what you do with it. Skype does charge fees to call regular phone lines, establish an inbound number, use voice mail, or other calling features on an a la carte basis. But, again, the software itself never changes.

This is already done on college courses online. At this point, I'm not sure how it's physically set up, but it wouldn't be difficult to get that information.

It's also available for corporate training. The instructor can observe/listen to one student at a time, or several. You can also send files, use a virtual whiteboard, do screen sharing, or several other common training features.

Typically, you would contract with a hosting company which maintains a dedicated server to run the software. There are usually per-seat licenses you purchase that enable you to use the video conferencing for the duration of the class. You then create accounts and login credentials for your students and send them the server's URL.

There are several companies that offer this type of distance learning, each with its own pros and cons. But as a rule they are all very expensive.

Sandy Martin · Post by **Sandy Martin** » 29 Aug 2007 4:26 am

Hmmm...so, I guess the video conferencing idea would probably be worth spending the $$$ only if there were a number of students meeting on a regular basis. Personally, I'm more interested in the one-on-one concept with a good instructor, whether biggie name or not...

I also found several very good programs that would record the entire lesson; some for free, others with a modest price. Obviously, a good tool. It would record directly to your hard drive, and then you'd need a DVD/CD burner to transfer to disk.

I'm assuming that, while on the webcast, the instructor would be able to email any TAB or other written material -- am I right?

I have received queries from several potential instructors at this point. The common thread has been "I'm very interested if there's a market for it". So...let's get a poll going -- who's interested, and how much would you be willing to pay for, say, a half hour, or an hour? Would you want a single lesson, or a block of lessons? How often would you like to connect? Weekly? Bi-weekly? Once a month?
If this idea took off, and there was enough of a demand, would we add another Index item to the Forum - Online Instruction - and have instructor profiles listed, or would it better to simply have links set up under "Links"? Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but only time will tell...

Joe Harwell · Post by **Joe Harwell** » 29 Aug 2007 4:54 am

Compressed video using H323 is expensive.

It's definitely the stuff.

It's full audio/video, real time, interactive, unlimited participants.

It is routeable via IP addresses to take it straight to the desktop if desired.

Jeff Agnew · Post by **Jeff Agnew** » 29 Aug 2007 4:58 am

...the instructor would be able to email any TAB or other written material -- am I right?

Yes. Keep in mind that while you transfer large files the video may stutter on computers with slower broadband connections or those at the low end of the performance spectrum. But that shouldn't be a substantial problem for this type of usage.

Also, just FYI, but I know of two "biggie" names who are currently working to provide online lessons. There may be others. That shouldn't deter your efforts in any way but it proves you have a sound concept.

Joe Harwell · Post by **Joe Harwell** » 29 Aug 2007 6:35 am

http://www.video-chat-im-software-revie ... views.com/

Some current reviews on this type of software.

Bent Romnes · Post by **Bent Romnes** » 29 Aug 2007 8:20 am

Sandy Martin wrote: Personally, I'm more interested in the one-on-one concept ... Weekly? Bi-weekly? Once a month?
If this idea took off, and there was enough of a demand, would we add another Index item to the Forum - Online Instruction - and have instructor profiles listed, or would it better to simply have links set up under "Links"? Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, but only time will tell...

Sandy,
I agree with what you say:
Definitely one-on-one instruction. I have done a bit of conference calling and it gets quite hairy when 3 or more people try and talk at the same time. It all gets reduced to a mess where nobody grasps anything. Take this one step further and imagine 4 steelers trying to play the lick that the instructor just played! No way I say.

A weekly 1/2, or at the most, one hour session with the instructor. That gives the student a whole week to practice what the instructor just gave him.

Depending on the ability of the instructor... A seasoned one could easily get away with a half hour, whereas a fairly new teacher would need a whole hour.

I would be willing to pay $30 for one hour of instruction..unless its a 'biggie' then, if I wanted him/her to instruct me, I would have to pay his/her going rate.

I absolutely LOVE your idea of creating a new index item called Online Instruction. In my view, this is a must if we were to get this started, and a way better idea than to link to the instructor's web page.

This is very interesting stuff and kudos to Sandy for having taken the concept this far in such a short while!
Keep'em coming!

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