A Musician or a Steel Player????

[Michael Douchette]

Reminds me of the joke Charlie Carter (w/ Tammy) told me... guy in a bar stands up and hollers out, "Who called that steel player a SOB?" Voice comes back, says, "That's not what I said! I said, 'Who called that SOB a steel player?'"

[Larry Bell]

Right you are, Doug

That thread definitely spawned this one. And I agree that the disconnect you describe exists.

Any “musician” should know where the notes are on his instrument. He should know the scales and how to use the scales to Create and Improvise. He should know the various chord types in several positions on his instrument. He should understand chord construction, what notes make up major and minor chords. Note reading is important too. A good musician should be able to communicate with other musicians in "musical" terms, not in terms of "boo-wah" and "X-lever". He needs to know what Musical changes are taking place when he pushes the pedals and levers. Otherwise he's just playing by Rote.

You said a mouthful there, hoss, but SHOULD is the operative word. And I agree with that observation. It was in some ways what I described as MUSICIAN and, more accurately, should have described as MUSIC STUDENT. That's really what I meant.

I feel that many students fail to see the importance of learning the principles of music. As a result, that person won't speak the language and have the advantages of picking material up from sheet music written for any instrument, knowing what scales sound good over a certain chord, learning to equate what you HEAR with what you KNOW -- stuff like that.

This mostly relates to students. A successful working musician won't make a living without being able to catch on FAST and know what to play.

I've run into some players who have simply never found a reason to learn what a major scale is and what it means. They know it if they hear it and can play it but they learn to play over a minor chord by starting over, rather than by understanding how starting on the 2nd note of the scale creates a minor scale with a b7.

BUT

There are a slew of players who can play a blue streak but don't know what to call it. More power to 'em.

Obviously, learning music theory is not required to be a good player but it helps. AND, most musicians who are really good and play with others who are really good pick it up. As soon as they have to transpose a chord chart or make some sense of what the piano player is talking about, they learn what they need to know. And, usually, it doesn't hurt their playing.

[Alan Brookes]

Anybody who plays music is a musician, whether he's a jungle bow-twanger who can't read a bit of music or Beethoven.

This discussion is predicated on your definitions. Change the definitions and the discussion changes.

[Doug Beaumier]

I guess "Good" Musician is a meaningless term. For example, the excellent note reader who plays written music well, but can NOT improvise, can not Create anything, would be considered a "Good" Musician... whatever that means.

[Michael Douchette]

Any “musician” should know where the notes are on his instrument. He should know the scales and how to use the scales to Create and Improvise. He should know the various chord types in several positions on his instrument. He should understand chord construction, what notes make up major and minor chords. Note reading is important too. A good musician should be able to communicate with other musicians in "musical" terms, not in terms of "boo-wah" and "X-lever". He needs to know what Musical changes are taking place when he pushes the pedals and levers.

Ok, you guys are, once again, pulling the serious side out of me. I hate that. Ok...

Doug, I agree wholeheartedly with what you say, and what several others have said here. That being said, we are known to hold in fairly high regard guys that never knew how to do those things. Pete didn't know how to play a scale. He had a pedal that would take the tuning to a 7b chord in the open position (E open, A with A+B, then D with the other pedal, not realizing all he had to do was use his E raise knee with his A pedal and move up one fret!) Then we have guys like Hal who could read like a fiend. Was Pete a "musician?" By the parameters set here, no. He was a steel player. Was Hal a "steel player?" Again, not by the general sweep of this thread; he would be a musician.

There is so much more to being either one than can be really classified. IMHO, we need to be musical, with everything that involves, with whatever our instrument of choice is.

[Joe Miraglia]

Might someone who is a accomplish musician,a violinest, or some other instrument still be a musician,trying a steel guitar for the first time? Do some musicians think the steel guitar isn't much of a instrument? If this is so than a steel guitarest dosn't need to be a musician,just playing one of the hardest and greatest sounding thing. WHAT IS THAT THING YOU ARE PLAYING!Don't ask me I'm not a musician. Joe

[Doug Beaumier]

Michael, what you say is true. It's hard to define "musician" and/or "steel player". It's true that a lot of great steel guitarists, a lot of our heros, didn't know much music theory, and it would be hard to argue that they were not good musicians.

It seems to me that steel guitarists should be able to communicate in musical terms with other musicians, in all genres of music. The more we know about theory the better off we are. I started out playing "by ear", like many others, but eventually I learned theory and how to read music, and that helped me to understand the pedal steel in a more complete way and expanded my playing... or, I like to think it did!

[Billy Carr]

I know the basic 1-4-5 numbers and such but I like to improvise, especially in a club setting or a jam session. With studio sessions, I usually listen to a little bit of each song and play a style of PSG that fits the song and pleases the session producer, who usually signs the checks. Most of the time, I don't know what I'm going to play until it just happens. I believe musician's are placed in catagories according to the instrument and how well they pursue it and what level they choose to get to. I choose to be a steel player with no boundries or borders. I do however, pick up bits and pieces along about the number system by listening and watching all types of players on various instruments.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

If you guys remember, I had a big fight with another member of this forum about whether or not it is desirable to learn all the old songs like SG rag and sleepwalk. I say it is, because these songs can provide a foundation on which you can build.

But the way I see it, learning to play these songs is like going to school, and there comes a point where you ought to graduate.

Learning SG rag taught me where the notes on the fretboard are. now that I know that, I apply that knowledge to other songs.

I've been listening to Billy Easton's "Feeling Groovy CD recently. For those who aren't fortunate enough to know Billy or hear him play, let's just say he's a thoroughly professional journeyman player who can do all the stuff you and I are still learning.

This CD is very traditional playing, applied to a bunch of tunes that have rarely been played on a steel before. Beautiful Dreamer. New York New York. Moments to Remember, The title tune, and my personal favorite, a swinging C6 take of Tchaikovsky's piano concerto in Bb (which Billy calls Tchaikovsky's steel guitar concerto.)

Billy is a very traditional player. It's very clear that he spent more years than he wishes to think about playing very straightforward E9 and C6, very much the way others have done it before him.

But instead of staying within the traditional repertoire, he found new material, and the result is a delightful blend of newness and familiarity.

I think we need more players like this who've done their homework and learned the classic steel songs, but having done so, are going one or more steps further.

*** dons flame proof suite***

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

BTW, of course classical musicians who can't improvise are real musicians. They're just a different kind of musician than we are.

Listen to any recording of any symphony orchestra, How can anybody suggest that the people producing those sounds are not real musicians?

[Barry Blackwood]

To me, the question, "Are you a musician or a steel player?" borders on the rhetorical. IMO, putting it this way kind of pits one faction against the other. I also sense an undercurrent of snobbishness in some of the replies. Anyone else?

[Willis Vanderberg]

Now, if you want to find out how little you know, try teaching someone the pedal steel.
In the process you will come to realize you really know quite a bit but, never had a reason to think about it. Because of the difference in copedants you will quickly stop saying knee lever F or whatever.
Saying raise your E's will get the job done. no matter what lever they are on.
It amazes me when I ask a player to gip 4, 5 and 8 they start counting strings. Most know the grip but never thought about it. So think about what strings you are gripping and what notes you are playing.I can picture in my mind a song and know what strings I am going to grip to play it.If you start thinking about what a lever does it will help also.
I can read music but I never tried to play it on my steel yet. I can sing it note for note and that really helps too.
Hey Larry, I really didn't mean to hi-jack your thread. you shouldn't post things that make me think..ha ha.

Bud

[David L. Donald]

Mike Shefrin summed it up pretty well for me.

I was a musician before I became a steel player.

[Eric West]

Well Mr Bell, I'll bite.

I think it's like being "The Man".

The individual is not the one that decides it.



EJL

[Dave Mudgett]

I try to be a musician first - as you define it - and guitar player, steel player, banjo player, and so on, second.

But I think the proposed definition of a musician is far too restrictive. Western-harmony based music is not the only music. Even the most tight-a$$ed music professor I ever met acknowledged this - in fact his definition of music was simply "organized sound".

Please don't take this personally, but I am, frankly, amazed that anyone could even consider the notion that John Lee Hooker is not a "musician". IMO, he and other seminal blues musicians understood that type of music at a level most of us will never even approach. I don't know if it's true or not, but suppose he didn't know the technical distinction between a maj7 and dom7? What difference does it make? In the style of music he played, it mattered not a shred - he always played the right notes at the right time from an instinctive but deep level of understanding of that form, and absolutely not as a rote exercise.

I think it's interesting that one would call a robotically trained instrumentalist who can read and play things from sight and analyze anything to death, but is unable to come up with simple on-the-spot improvised melodies in real time, a musician, while someone who is an advanced but not theoretically-trained and sight-reading improvisor clearly doesn't fit. Think Wes Montgomery, Tal Farlow, and many others.

It was in some ways what I described as MUSICIAN and, more accurately, should have described as MUSIC STUDENT

Modify that last phrase to "student of western harmony based music analysis" and I'll go with you.

Mind you, I am very interested in western harmony based music analysis and find all the things you're talking about important and interesting. But I really think we should be very careful to avoid a provincial attitude about music.

[Larry Bell]

Some folks study notes, scales, chords, progressions -- all the elements that are combined to make music. Some don't. Therein is the crux of the question. I was just curious what proportion of steel players actively study music.

My bad for framing the question ambiguously. I should have realized that calling the two approaches ANYTHING would lead to confusion.

[David L. Donald]

The moment you decide to 'stop learning'
Jack youse dead...

I had 10 years aborbing french trad music and assorted
ancient music, irish and other celtic forms and then
wandered off into Rumanian, Bulgar and Magrehb styles.

Now I am getting a rather eastern slant on
both melody and harmonization.

'Musician' doesn't have to be limited to Western forms at all.
Many other things can be grafteed to it as a base,
or it can be ignored for a time too.

[Mat Rhodes]

So few of us, so many more in the audience. I wonder if they care or know the difference?

Me, personally, I think of myself more as a musician. I'm in a combo where I have to plan arrangements, sing accurately (and hopefully halfway decently), and think about the best places to put a steel line that doesn't interfere with what I'm trying to sing. But, in my case, I had to start off as a player before I became a musician.

Generalization:

Players believe the arrangement is a vehicle for them. Musicians believe they're the vehicle for the arrangement.

[Jim Sliff]

Edited - Larry, I missed you last post before typing the stuff below - reading it I just noticed your clarification of the intent of the question, and so my post does not directly address what you apparently meant, it addresses my initial interpretation of it.

I still stand by what I say below, however, even if it's not completely in the framwork of the intended question - and I still think the points regarding "labels" are valid, based on followup posts.
_________________________________

A MUSICIAN concentrates on understanding how music works...

As some of the others have said in different ways, I can't answer this question - because I absolutely do not agree with the definition of "musician".

To me, being a musician has zero to do with concentrating on understanding etc etc....

A musician is one who creates music. I'm not playing with semantics, but I think most would agree that "music" is a noise that's pleasing to the ear - whether it's pleasing to YOUR ear is irrelevant, as long as it's pleasing to the "musician" - the one who creates the noise. If you don't agree, don't even read the rest of this.

A guy in the Brazilian rain forest who beats on a hollowed-out log that is constructed in such a way that it makes exactly one "note", and beats away on that thing because he likes it is a "musician". A person whose office chair squeaks in different ways and likes to make it squeak in a repeating pattern is a "musician". They don't concentrate on understanding squat. They are making what to them is a pleasing noise - that's music.

Heck, the intial definition eliminated banjo players completely. Come to think of it, so does mine.



While we're at it - a steel player is someone who plays steel. A friend of mine came over, sat down and picked a few strings and then pressed some pedals and notes changed.

Congratulations to him - he's a steel player.

To wrap it up - who cares? Why do such labels even matter? You don't need "qualifications" or cetificates, or talent - or even *hearing* - to be either. What, do we now need to appoint someone "judge" to determine whether someone is entitled to call themselves "musician" or "steel player"? Will we form a committee to develop a set of criteria that must be complied with in order to allow oneself use of ether "label" personally?

Don't worry abut what to call yourself (or someone else) - just play.

[Donny Hinson]

Anyone who makes music is a musician. You don't have to "understand" anything about it to create it, it's an art.


Music comes in all forms, and so do it's players. I've seen "accomplished musicians" look down their noses (or at least feel sorry for) someone who's a decent player, but who doesn't read music, or understand the concepts of scales and harmonies.

These same "accomplished musicians", however, will admire and talk enthusiastically about some native players in a distant country, on another continent, that make totally rudimentary music with primitive instruments.

What a strange lot we are.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

What about people who play "air guitar"?

[Ray Montee (RIP)]

I find it most difficult to observe what they're playing and then identify what key they're in. Can someone here, help me?

[Doug Beaumier]

This idea of the robotically-trained instrumentalist who can sight-read anything, and knows all of the theory, but is unable to improvise, unable to create anything on the spot... vs. the naturally gifted, untrained player who can hear anything, play anything by ear, and come up with amazing parts, but knows no theory... this is very interesting. Both are musicians, but very different kinds of musicians. When a player has Both natural ability and a head for theory, he has it all! Fortunately it doesn’t have to be one way or the other. Most of us have some of each in varying degrees IMHO.

[Bill Dobkins]

I don't read music,or do I desire to, I've tried to take lessons before only to find it confusing what I already know and holding me back. But I know what music is supposed to sound like.The great Dave Kirby even ask me how to get a certian chord one time. He said he had never seen it before. Hell I don't know it was just somthing I had made up over the years, but it works for me and thats all I care about.SO WHAT AM I IN THIS THREAD.What was the Carter Family or the old time pickers who came out of hills with homade fiddles and banjo's ect.Who kinda started all this.
Thats what wrong with music today,if you don't have a degree in music then your not a musician, sorry i'm not buying.I respect everyone who plays music, no matter who bad or good they are. The person who just learned that C chrord is just as proud as the one who has the degree. This is my opinion and not meant to step on any toes.

One more opinion,Mikey D needs to write a book on Logic as I've stated before.

[Mike Perlowin RIP]

My earlier comment about air guitar was partly a joke and partly not. A couple of years ago, somebody in his early 20s, upon learning that I am a musician, told me he was too, and when I asked him what instrument he played, he replied air guitar, and he wasn't kidding. He honestly thought that makeing playing like motions while a recording played in the background was as much of an accomplishment as actually playing.

I hope this guy was not typical of his age group.

This brings up another question. What about the person who does not play an instrument, but who takes recorded samples and strings them together with a computer program like Pro Tools.

The result has to be considered as some sort of music but can the computer operator who assembled the thing be considered to be a musician or not?