Lydian Chromatic Concept

Adam Kavanaugh · Post by **Adam Kavanaugh** » 4 Dec 2009 4:23 pm

For some time now I have been reading about George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization. I have been quite intrigued from what I've learned about the concept and am contemplating splurging for the book and studying it in depth. Wondering how many here have studied the concept, and allow it to influence their playing? Any thoughts or opinions anyone may have pertaining to this would be greatly appreciated!

Adam Kavanaugh · Post by **Adam Kavanaugh** » 4 Dec 2009 5:28 pm

In a search of the old forum for the concept, I came across some very interesting and informative posts. I can see the great potential that tonal gravity would lend to modal tunes. I can also see how the concept can be a way of thinking over a song with typical jazz changes. In a post by Franklin, he stated upon studying this method, he found it was mostly just a new way of looking at the old things he learned to apply. Does anyone have any feedback with pros to studying Russell's concept other than just traditional jazz theory?

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 4 Dec 2009 6:35 pm

I have been a huge fan for years (actually, I'm quoted on the website). Whether you are looking to apply scales to chord changes or chord changes to a melody, this will give you options to consider.

I don't think you'll be disappointed in it. Good luck.

Mike Delaney

Bryan Daste · Post by **Bryan Daste** » 4 Dec 2009 8:19 pm

I spent a little time researching the idea a few years ago and decided not the buy the book. It seemed liked a very "niche" idea that made sense, but didn't appear very useful in the real world. Mike, can you be more specific about how it has helped you musically? Why styles do you play?

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 4 Dec 2009 8:46 pm

I spent some time with it but ultimately decided to walk away from it. The system is based upon the premise that the Lydian scale is more consonant tonal center or stronger parent scale than the Ionian scale. The Lydian scale in tertian order (stacked in 3rds) contains a ladder of intervals of a fifth (C-G, E-B, G-D, B-F#, D-A), where the Ionian scale has the interval of a b5 in tertian order (B-F). In that respect, the Lydian is more consonant sounding.

For me, it was too heavy for me to consider reorganizing all the information I already had and spent so much time processing. I'm not saying I made the right decision, though.

If you decide to continue to this system, you should study with a teacher well-versed in it.

AJ Azure · Post by **AJ Azure** » 4 Dec 2009 11:44 pm

At least to Western ears I don't buy it as being a natural and intuitive natural change. Although, i adore Lydian tonality.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 5 Dec 2009 6:48 am

There are many different ways to get to the same place, so an assessment of what specifically you're trying to achieve is a good start towards deciding what to study. Is it playing freely in the chromatic sense, being able to call up any note combinations? Is it in making new & fresh chordal choices.... In my opinion, if you can define the goals with specificity, choosing what to study almost explains itself.

I looked into the Russell stuff, and thought it to be a thorough review of harmony but with a slightly different starting point or "slant" - sort of like Pat Martino's "everything's minor" approach. On the other hand, Martino's other approach - organizing via diminished & augmented concepts - is something I'm really enjoying. It certainly couldn't hurt to dedicate a few years to Russell, if the teaching style hooks you. You'd probably get to a fairly equivalent level of knowledge if you memorized the heads and all the solos from a few hundred jazz songs, and then analyzed them for the reasons behind note choices - paperwork required, in either event. Different people work in different ways.

(Check with your public library about their inter-library loan program - in Maryland, I've been able to check out almost every music book I've ever heard of, without buying.)

Don Drummer · Post by **Don Drummer** » 5 Dec 2009 9:31 am

Adam, I too looked into this tome some years ago. It was a copied version of the original self published one. My conclusions mirror Mike Neer's in that the use of this info is best applied in a Be Bop jazz sense that avoids the use of the Ionian interval of mi fa or the half step in the 3rd and 4th interval. For some reason this is favored by Jazzers. It's use is incompatible with other styles that depend on this half step for the character of that music. I did get alot out of reading and trying some of the material. Just not that useful overall. Don D.

Adam Kavanaugh · Post by **Adam Kavanaugh** » 5 Dec 2009 9:47 am

Thanks guys...by the sounds of it, the concept seems essentially just another way to look at what's learned in any other legitimate method of jazz learning. David, that's interesting..although I've listened to some Martino, I've never really looked into those approaches of his you mentioned. I'll check them out too. I guess there are a lot of different avenues that can be taken that will lead to likened results with just different perspectives....

Adam Kavanaugh · Post by **Adam Kavanaugh** » 5 Dec 2009 10:06 am

Other than the scale theories, making it more consonant with the Lydian being thought as as the Ionian, what about the whole aspect of Tonal Gravity mentioned in the Concept? Surely this, outlining more inward and outward playing takes up a good part of the teaching...

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 5 Dec 2009 10:10 am

I always leaned towards the symmetrical aspect of the LCC's theoretical foundation. (found in the middle of my old copy) At the time I was really into it, this young hippy really liked being able to render my understanding into a kind of yin/yang overview of the natural harmonic world. My attention span was pretty well compromised in those days, so the "in going verticals" and "out going horizontals" were never actually used in real world practice for me.

Then I took up steel, joined a country band, and all of it went out the window.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 5 Dec 2009 10:20 am

I should add, that even though I don't technically think about the LLC when I'm playing, it really is a large part of whatever it is that I play like now.

Understanding "Tonal Gravity" is a really valuable tool!

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 5 Dec 2009 8:22 pm

In answer to Bryan's questions, first of all I'm primarily a jazz player. (Not on steel...playing steel is something I do for fun. Primary instrument is guitar)

Something that is often overlooked in discussing the Concept is that it is based on the "vertical now" which occurs during the course of a piece of music. Say, for example, we were going to consider each chord change in a vertical sense, and at this moment the chord is C Maj7. Our decision would be which tensions to use. Lydian would give us D,F#,A. Ionian would be D,F,A. Once it has been decided which is best for the vertical moment, we now know which scale to play horizontaly over the chord change.

This is grossly over simplified, and maybe doesn't make a lot of sense as I explained it. The long and short of it is that there are several options in any situation, and the Concept is a tool to help you decide which you prefer.

That being said, traditional theory will go a long way toward understanding most of what you hear and play. I'd be sure to have a thorough understanding of it before I went into the Concept, because traditional theory is how you are going to be communicating with other musicians.

I hope I made a bit of sense here. This is far too complicated to cover in a few paragraphs, but the main thing is it is another way of viewing harmony, which gave me some fresh ideas.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 6 Dec 2009 3:53 am

Here is a 10-page PDF file that outlines Pat Martino's approach:

http://www.patmartino.com/Articles/Guit ... l_2004.pdf

His ideas changed my playing. The Cliff Notes version:

Take an augmented triad. Raise one note a half-step - observe what chord is formed. Go back to the original triad - raise a different note - what's the chord? Try lowering each note. What you'll see is that you get three different minor and three different major chords. Since there are only four augmented triads, every basic chord is within four frets. As always, fingers are problematic, and this isn't music, of course - it's just vocabulary.

The other part is more useful to me - try the same process with a diminished 7th chord, 1 b3 b5 6. Raise one, lower one... equals WHAT chords?

Combined with the eminent substitutability* of the diminished chords and symmetric scale, it's like a rocketship to Chromaticland. Zowie - what bass lines!

Another thing I added was to raise any two adjacent notes within the diminished 7th a half-step.

I even drew up a Martino/diminished pedal steel guitar tuning on paper, but alas, I have too many instruments to keep up with already. Maybe when they manufacture that new improved 36-hour day....

*(it's a word now, Mr. Spellchecker)

Dave Ristrim · Post by **Dave Ristrim** » 6 Dec 2009 6:02 am

Thanks you guys. This seems to be an actual discussion of something that relates to music and pedal steel for a change. I was about ready to take the Steel Guitar Forum off of my bookmark bar until I found this thread!
I have the LCC book, and the Martino stuff. Maybe it's time to dig in again and devote some serious time to it. Again, thanks for the inspiration.

Don Drummer · Post by **Don Drummer** » 6 Dec 2009 6:14 am

Mike Delaney, thank you for that example. It is just what I needed. So if the chord is Cmaj7 and the verticle approach means "scale per Chord" and horizontal means, for lack of a better term, "scale over chord progression," from what I just played on piano using your example, I would use the G major scale if CM7 was the tonic chord and the progression reflected this this key center. In so doing I would be applying the LCC. Am I getting close? Don D.

robert kramer · Post by **robert kramer** » 6 Dec 2009 12:00 pm

LCC Lesson I (Pages 2-3)
Determining the Parent Scale of a Chord

The parent scale for Eb7 is the Db Lydian scale (or Lydian Tonic in LCC terms): Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
On C-6th, lower your 3rd String C to B and locate the Lydian Tonic on strings 5, 4 & 3. Play and listen to the sound the Db Lydian Tonic over the Eb7 chord.

Now, with your 3rd string C lowered to B, locate all the notes of the Db Lydian Tonic on strings 5, 4 & 3 of your fretboard and play these over the Eb7 chord:

(1) Practice tip: When you woodshed your scale patterns with a metronome during long practice sessions, tune down the 3rd string from B to C with the tuning key to save wear and tear on your changer.

(2) As you learn this or any other scale, don't forget to throw in non-scale chromatic tones as lead in notes or passing tones.

(3) This is not the only way of playing a Lydian Tonic on C-6th. Does anybody know any other fret positions for this scale? (Db Eb F G Ab Bb C Db)

(4) All your scales (major, minor, altered and the scales in LCC) can be organized in patterns (or pockets) on strings 5, 4, & 3 with the 3rd string lowered to C to B. When I learn a scale, I locate all the notes of the scale on these three strings - up and down the length of the fretboard. When I try to play over changes, I use the scales patterns on strings 5, 4 & 3 (3rd string lowered C to B) as a reference point for everything I play. In my mind, I am picturing the scale patterns on these 3 strings as a column going up and down the fretboard that I can jump on or off again when I leave to play Bird riffs, Emmons riffs or any other riffs or scales that use strings other than or including 5, 4, & 3. I woodshed these patterns in scales sequences (2nd's 3rd's, 4th's etc.) with a metronome. Jazz scale patterns/sequences can be found in any scale book or on Google. .

(4) The Db Lydian Tonic can be transposed to strings 8, 7 & 6 on E-9th by using as your root note the Db on the 8 string at the ninth fret (no pedals or knee levers) to improvise over your Eb7 chord.

Jim Robbins · Post by **Jim Robbins** » 6 Dec 2009 1:22 pm

Robert, scales on 3 strings with the C lowered to B is a great idea. They lie so easily -- it's like the magic lick for C6. Thanks.

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 6 Dec 2009 5:57 pm

Don- You are getting the basic idea. To get the vertical idea, play a 7 note chord:
A
F#
D
B
G
E
C

You now have CMaj7, with the tensions of 9,#11,and 13.

Now turn it on its side:

C,D,E,F#,G,A,B

The C Lydian scale, which is horizontal.

The Concept contains several scales, which are used to get the altered tensions (such as b13, for example). It showed me a different way to look at something, and as I said earlier, gave me some fresh ideas.

Twayn Williams · Post by **Twayn Williams** » 7 Dec 2009 10:58 am

So, if I'm playing on the V7 chord I should play in the IV chord position, yes? And if on a IM7 chord I should play in the II7 position? Or am I completely missing the point? I'm relating this to C6 lap steel.

Don Drummer · Post by **Don Drummer** » 7 Dec 2009 11:42 am

Robert Kramer and Mike Delaney, Thank You both

Don D.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 7 Dec 2009 3:58 pm

I have played around with E9 in the Lydian mode in what I call a Zappa mode as in the "Apostrophe" his solo in the Lydian mode.
Playing an E major scale over an A in the key of A is one example of playing in the country vain, which has the sound of playing in an A major seventh. Very good as well as practical for the E9.
However playing in parental forms using Dim/Aug cluster off springs is a useless venture and should not and can not be applied the E9 PSG in it's present coped.

Jim Robbins · Post by **Jim Robbins** » 7 Dec 2009 5:21 pm

Twayn Williams wrote:So, if I'm playing on the V7 chord I should play in the IV chord position, yes? And if on a IM7 chord I should play in the II7 position? Or am I completely missing the point? I'm relating this to C6 lap steel.

Playing a lydian over IV for a V works. If you take eg in C, the IV F A C and play a B instead of C (i.e., IV b5) you've got F A B which are notes which imply a V9. (Or, you emphasise B as the chord tone & treat C as passing.) If you're thinking about F as the root, and phrasing so you land there, you are really landing on the 7th of the V chord which can sound good. There are two standard voicings on the E9 neck that work this way: 2 frets back from open with the B-Bb lever down, or 2 frets back from A-B with the E-D# lever down.

It is less easy to substitute a II for a I either chordally or as a scale -- the II gives you 9th, #11 and 13 of the I chord so if you're playing in a context where you can emphasise that stuff, go for it. Similarly, lines based around II major will have you landing on some pretty tense sounding upper partials. You can use that II where you're adding colour but in line playing it's pretty tricky -- even in the bebop context (flat 5 land), there is a lot of play around the 3rd degreee of the tonic using a diatonic 4th degree (e.g. in C, turns around the 3rd like F-D#-E). You'd lose that if you were to think exclusively of the lydian on I. But at the end of a ballad -- sweet.

robert kramer · Post by **robert kramer** » 7 Dec 2009 6:52 pm

Twayn Williams,

CMaj7 = C D E Gb G A B

C7 = Eb F G A Bb C D

Dm7 & G7 = F G A B C D E

Dm7b5 = Ab Bb C D Eb F G

Here is a blues scale listed on the LCC chart:

Blues = C Eb E F Gb G Bb

On your C-6th lap steel you can find the notes of the C Lydian Tonic scale on the G & A strings at frets 5,7,9,12 & 14 with the octave C at the 13th fret of the A string. This is enough to play some blues.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 7 Dec 2009 10:01 pm

Does anybody have a scan of the top part of the "slide rule" that used to come with the LLC? Mine disintegrated years ago.

The Steel Guitar Forum

Lydian Chromatic Concept

Lydian Chromatic Concept

lydian

lccto

Tonal gravity

The Lydian sphere