Figuring out the key on new songs

Matthew Prouty · Post by **Matthew Prouty** » 25 Feb 2009 1:45 pm

I am having an ever increasingly difficult time figuring out the keys on new country songs.

Here is what is happening. We learn a new song and I learn it by ear. We go to practice and the guitarist says the songs in B, but the song sounds to me like its 5544, 1155 or BBAA, EEBB in the key of E. This happens on almost every song, I just play E and it sounds great. I told him to stop giving me a set list because his song keys were messing me up. If it were B wouldn't that be an Adim or Am7b5 or something like that instead of an Amaj?

An example of this song would be Feel That Fire. Which appears to be in Db to me and the guitarist would call this Ab. It looks like 5544 1155 format to me.

Am I wrong?

Thanks for any help.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 25 Feb 2009 2:07 pm

Hi Matthew, Feel the Fire is in Ab on record , we play it in A. Not sure how you arrived at Db. Can you describe how you are approaching the key to songs ?

years back Jeff Newman told everyone "if you don't know what key they are in (the band) take your bar slowly and softly and slide it up the 8th string (E) until you find the root note. Works every time !

I have a package coming your way, I hope you enjoy it.
Send me a note anytime, i will be glad to help if I can .

Tony

Matthew Prouty · Post by **Matthew Prouty** » 25 Feb 2009 2:13 pm

I look at the chords in the song. So it has G-F-C-G as the chords with a capo at the 1st fret. I see that as Ab-Gb-Db-Ab, or 5-4-1-5.

m.

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 25 Feb 2009 3:17 pm

It’s usually easy enough to figure out the key of a song, but sometimes you can’t tell immediately.
What can really lead to a train wreck is when someone in the band thinks that the first chord of a song is always the key it’s in. What they should say is I don’t know how to determine what key a song is in, but I know the 1st chord is X. I ran into this problem once when sitting in with a band and they said let’s do “I fall to pieces” in the key of E. As it turned out, they should have said we do it in the key of B, and the pedal steel has the pick-up leading into the 4 chord which is E.

Obviously not a country song, but how about Sweet Home Alabama, do you consider the key to that song D or G?
In D it’s 1 b7 4. In G it’s 5 4 1.
I’ve heard this debated a few times.
You can’t judge by the guitar solos either, because one time it’s basically in G Major, and another time it’s in like a D rock & roll mode.
I guess for this one it’s safe to just say “the key on the record” unless of course the singer demands to sing it elsewhere, though I’ve never had that happen yet.

Marc

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 25 Feb 2009 4:24 pm

Marc Friedland wrote:... Sweet Home Alabama, do you consider the key to that song D or G?

I have tossed and turned many a sleepless night trying to solve that one.

Other things that keep me awake are:

If I shot a man in Reno (Nevada) just to watch him die, why am I in Folsom (California)?

If I go down down down in a burning ring of fire, why does the melody go up up up?

Rick Campbell · Post by **Rick Campbell** » 25 Feb 2009 4:56 pm

Earnest,

It's got something to do with phonetics, which indicates that a word should be spelled by the way it sounds.......... which means phonetics should be spelled fonetics. I can't figure that stuff out either.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 25 Feb 2009 8:20 pm

That sounds fony to me. DYKBC.

Papa Joe Pollick · Post by **Papa Joe Pollick** » 25 Feb 2009 8:47 pm

Sweet Home Alabama sheet music says 1 sharp..Looks like the key of G to me...PJ....

Mickey Lawson · Post by **Mickey Lawson** » 25 Feb 2009 9:27 pm

Matthew said: "but the song sounds to me like its 5544, 1155 or BBAA, EEBB in the key of E."
--------------------------------------
Normally speaking, the chord you end the song on is the tonic (I) chord (tonal center). If your song ends in B...then that is the key of the song (so you MUST make it the 1-chord). This being true, in the example the song chords being BBAA..EEBB; equate to 11b7b7...4411.

Dave Harmonson · Post by **Dave Harmonson** » 25 Feb 2009 11:23 pm

Although the last chord of a song is usually the tonic or I chord, that is certainly not always true. I know a number af songs that end on the IV or V and many that end on a vi. The key of a song is determined by the scale the melody is based on. I've had the same discussion about Sweet Home Alabama. It has the principal chords of G major and the melody follows a G major scale, but most people refer to it as in the key of D and could also be correct if you determine the C chord is a "borrowed" chord or a substitute V of IV. I don't know the song being mentioned here, but it has a similarity to the Sweet Home Alabama progression and could be viewed at as the ending chord being a I or a V. For practicality's sake I would probably call the last chord the tonic and the second chord then would be a bVII, but without knowing the melody I'm guessing.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 26 Feb 2009 12:10 am

You should tell that lad if he wants to just pick a chord and call it the key.... don't pick the first chord, pick the last chord !
(that's the short answer)
-John

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 26 Feb 2009 12:45 am

I look for 2 patterns in the major chords, whether its :

1.the 1,4,5 as open, ab down and up 2 ab down.

or

2. the 1,4,5 is ab down, up one fret a/f up 2 more a/f

so by testing out those 2 boxes based on known majors I can hack my way through a song the first time I hear it.

If its in c major, your on fret 8 open,ab down and up 2 ab down for your 1,4,5

or your down on 3 with ab, a/f one fret up and back to 3 open for a quick 1,4,5 check. If the songs in G youll know it when you try the a/f at the 4th fret (sounds real sour).

another way to test it is just play the majors open and see how far your sliding for the next major chord. If your sliding 2 frets your probably doind a 4chord to 5chord. But if your sliding 5 frets thats more than likely your 1 to 4. and you know your 1chord is the key to the song.

these tests work well for me, as most of the bands I play with stick to a 1,4,5,6minor theme in various orders. (they think they are breaking the mold too..)

problems arise in those songs with lots of minors or ones that change keys a lot, but similar logic works.

learning the harmonized scale (scale in 3 note chords) will beat these patterns into your head and you will immediately recognise them in songs. for C thats

Cmajor Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim Cmaj

learning the pedal/lever combos for this scale will show you where the root note is when you recognise where in the scale pattern you are.

Matthew Prouty · Post by **Matthew Prouty** » 26 Feb 2009 8:08 am

So is the b7th chord that common?

m.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Feb 2009 8:58 am

Yes the flat 7 chord is common. Its a very basic rock chord. In most everything. If the chords are D then C then G you can think in D only make sure you play in D7 or mixolidian mode. You can also play in a D rock minor mode. Either pentatonic or dorian. Learn a few classic rock guitar licks over that progression and it will start to make sense. Regular country licks don't quite work. All those dominant 7 pivot moves in standard country licks need to be modified.

Spend some time learning this stuff:

http://www.dougbsteel.com/PentPage.htm

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 26 Feb 2009 9:46 am

"Flat 7" is actually just "7" in a minor scale (such as aeolian or dorian.)

Matthew Prouty · Post by **Matthew Prouty** » 26 Feb 2009 9:59 am

Bob,

That was the epiphany for me. Rock. Now I understand it. I have never studied rock and that what Modern Country is. Its rock. Now I understand everything.

And that explains what the guitarist was talking about. He is a rock guitarist that plays country.

E.B.

I guess I need to study beyond the Lydian mode.

I suddenly feel smarter.

Thanks for the help on this.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 26 Feb 2009 2:04 pm

I have never studied rock and that what Modern Country is. Its rock.

Mathew,
It may have the same notes, chords and sound exactly the same as rock music. It even may be produced and played by the same musicians that played rock music in the 70 and 80's. But you can tell from the hats that it is country music now. Plus rock music is about sticking it to the man. The new country (and pop music in general) songs are about accepting your situation and being a happy consumer even though the man is sticking it to you.

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 26 Feb 2009 2:13 pm

uhoh,,LMAO Bob,,im gonna use that

Bo Borland · Post by **Bo Borland** » 26 Feb 2009 7:37 pm

"Now I understand everything"

And yet , the question remains.. what key is it?

If I shot the sheriff but I did not shoot the deputy, then who did?

If the chords are D- C - & G ..as in Sweet Home Alabama... what key is it?

Steve Norman · Post by **Steve Norman** » 26 Feb 2009 8:03 pm

G,

G = 1
C = 4
D = 5

Guy Cundell · Post by **Guy Cundell** » 26 Feb 2009 10:42 pm

"Sweet Home Alabama" My take is..... Forget the chords for a minute and work out what the main note of the melody is. To my ears it has got to be D.

The key is D but D what?
D Major? No, it has the C natural.
D Minor? No, the first chord is D major.

But the chords suggest G major. The major scale of G with D as the key note is the D mixolydian mode. The chords D, C and G fit into D mixolydian.

Traditional theory teaching generally ignores the modes of the major scale though composers such as Bach and Beethoven wrote some modal music. If Beethoven had written "Sweet Home Alabama" he would have written it with the key signature of 1 sharp (same as G major) and called it D mixolydian. The alternate way is to write it as D major (2 sharps, F and C) and make all the Cs natural, though personally I think he would have sided with Neil Young.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 27 Feb 2009 3:53 am

If Beethoven had written "Sweet Home Alabama" I don't think we'd still be listening to him 200 years later... somehow a marble bust of Ronnie Van Zant on the grand piano just seems off. Here's a pix of younger sib Johnny, stickin' it to the man:

(when Frank Zappa & Abbie Hoffman wore flags in the 60's, it was dirty & bad....)

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 27 Feb 2009 7:06 am

I found this rare footage of Beethoven showing the correct use of the blues scale that utilizes both a major and minor third over a major 1 4 5 chord progression:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X20woQAh-c4

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 27 Feb 2009 10:17 am

I lost the key signature versus mode argument awhile back when I thought Malaguena was in E. It turns out the original sheet music key signature is C. So even though there is no C chord in the piece, it is considered "key of C, E phrygian." The modal root does not denote the key.

Now thinking back on Malaguena, seems like it is in Am, not C. The prominent beginning chord of the progression is Am. The progression is Am, G, F, E. E is what you keep resolving back to. So I just always felt the key was E. A bunch of sticklers displayed the original sheet music on the Forum and showed there were no sharps or flats, thus key of C (or Am). As a practical matter, there are fewer accidentals to write into the music if it is written in C rather than E.

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 27 Feb 2009 1:19 pm

Papa Joe Polick had it right for "Sweet Home Alabama" It's in the key of G. I have some sheet music for it and the chord signature is one sharp which to me equates to the key of G like Joe said.....not D....

I used to work with a bass player who was horrible about calling out chords for song. He said one night he wanted to do "Proud Mary" I said "What key" and he said "C". I started the intro on the Bb chord and he started it with a C note on the bass, so you can imagine what a trainwreck that was. Later we had a nice long talk about what constitutes the key of a song, like someone else mentioned, he thought the first chord was the key of the song........ I won't mention any names, but he's on here from time to time (You know who you are!).....JH in Va.