Bobbe's Newsletter: Steel Players, Traditional Country Music

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 13 Mar 2008 11:05 am

As he frequently does, Bobbe brings up another important issue in his newsletter this week.

A statement that I made on the forum is sort of a question. Here’s the question. “Isn’t it amazing how bluegrass has become so incredible today and pure traditional country has disappeared, but as you know, it’s not our fault as consumers, that traditional country music has disappeared.”

I feel we can thank those in power who never even knew what country music was. It seems like everybody everywhere loves country music, with or without words. Who would have ever thought that traditional country music would be bigger in Germany and all of Europe than it is in the United States. I don’t know what we can do about all this, but just keep the pressure on. Maybe someone will hear us. In the meantime, keep playing in your country bands, learning steel guitar and staying true to the music that we love most.

I totally agree, but I think we need to do even more than just play in country bands and so on. Right now, in a lot of places, there's nowhere to play traditional country music and no organized audience. I don't believe for a New York minute that there isn't an audience out there. I also think that young people will be interested if it's presented well.

I think we need to organize. I think one of the very important reasons bluegrass is doing well is that they have been organized for decades. The people at the heart of that movement don't care about current trends, large-scale commerce, or what anybody else thinks about them. They just put their heads down, set up grass-roots communities of musicians and fans, organize bluegrass festivals large and small all over the country, and are totally committed. Try arguing with them about doing something else - forget it. They are hard-headed and if you're with them, great. Otherwise - "no worries, you go do your thing, but we're not interested." They formed their own record companies 30-40 years ago, and just self-produced their own records and did them their own way. They have their own formal organization and their own awards ceremonies. They are completely self-sufficient.

I may be wrong, but I think this is the only way to bring traditional country music back to any reasonable state. I think that railing against the monied corporate interests pushing what passes for mainstream music is a complete dead end. If what you want out of this is to work for a big star, that's great - but has nothing to do with this. This has to be completely and honestly about the music, or why should anybody care?

Remember - it is people who want to listen to traditional country music that can bring things back. Nothing less will help. If there is no organized effort that is totally committed to this music - not the limos, not the money, not the star status, not the ACMs or the CMAs, not Hollywood, not the record companies - then again, why should these people who love country music care?

I think it's eminently doable if organized properly. The financial bar for setting up a record company and making high-quality recordings is lower than ever. The problems, to me, are that

1. This kind of music has lost its identity. That needs to be reestablished.

2. There needs to be an organized audience for this kind of music. It needs to start at grass-roots levels and build.

Right now, everything in this area is splintered, as a result of being viewed as the "has-beens" in the mainstream country world. Here we have these older artists looking for scraps off the big plate. Instead, there needs to be a new plate, with this music as the centerpiece. One of the difficulties is that this would be a small plate at first.

What does this have to do with steel players? I think steel players are, to a large extent, the heart and soul of this style. Steel players already know how to organize events like steel guitar shows. The community of steel players is unusually tight, and more tied to traditional country music than any other instrument. They are, as a group, technically capable and respected.

But I also think, to make something like this work, would require going far past the strictly steel-guitar orientation of steel guitar shows. To really get grass-roots interest, the full picture of traditional country music would have to be put across, much more like a bluegrass festival. You don't see "bluegrass banjo festivals", right? OK - no jokes.

What say you all? Am I nuts? Or better yet - how can this be done?

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 13 Mar 2008 11:46 am

Dave,
About 10 years ago, I started a bluegrass organization called the Northern Plains Bluegrass Association. I recruited players from eastern Montana, North Dakota, and Wyoming. At one time, I had like 25 members. Sounds small but we're a small area. We had jams here and there and then I was contacted by another organization in Billings, MT who had a bluegrass organization. They wanted to join forces.

Then in conjunction with the local Lions club, we organized a bluegrass festival. The Lions have a beautiful setting in Makoshika State Park where we held the festival for 3 years.

After the first year, some people from Miles City who had come for the festival called and wanted help organizing their own bluegrass club. So we went over and helped them their first year. Now they have their own two-day bluegrass festival every year in September. They are beginning to bring in bands from as far away as Wisconsin.

After the third year, the Lions pulled the plug on us so we had no place to hold the festival. I couldn't find anyone else to sponsor us, so we were done. But the Miles City festival is still going strong. Not sure about Billings.

So it can be done, and once started, is infectious. Bluegrass has something we wouldn't have. For some reason bluegrass appeals to a wider group of audiences than country. Even people who don't like country like bluegrass. I don't really understand that, but I know from experience with my festival audiences that is it true.

How do we begin? Do we start by forming a national organization and then appoint regional leaders to over see districts? If we are serious about this, then I believe it can be done. Look what the Musik Mafia has done in Nashville?

Great topic, Dave.

Joe

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 13 Mar 2008 12:03 pm

Young people will definetly be interested ...IF THE MUSIC IS GREAT. Hank III is playing trad country with steel and selling out every show and his audience is comprised primnarily of young punks, alterna-types and metal merchants. Wayne Hancock is drawing large young crowds with pure trad country. Scott Biram too. The music has to be great and young people have to be able to relate to it..it has to speak to THEIR life expereinces in order for them to be into it.

I dont see the impediment to young folks enjoying trad country as bieng CMT, the OPRY, major labels, or any lack of organisation. I see the main probllem being just plain and simply...a lack of great artists playing and writing great music.

Thats my take on it as someone coming from the demographic you seek to engage. If you build it (great music) they will come wether it be trad country or gypsy folk (Gogol Bordello is doing quite well with the kiddies). I'm not up on the bluegrass scene or even the country scene....but I know the hardcore, punk, metal alternative scenes VERY well..and i dont see them coming out for an organised festival of trad country or to a country only venue and CERTAINLY not to a steel show where the emphasis isnt even on songs but rather on technical prowess.... Young folk dont wanna sit in conference room #6 of the airport hilton on a sunday afternoon under full flourescent lighting listening to an instrumental variation on some 40 year old song that has nothing to do with them or their lives (no offense everyone)....nor do they wanna spread out a blanket with wine and cheese at some day long festival at the gorge. It has to be visceral and real and whats happenin on a friday night at their local watering hole to draw them in.

Im not sure what it is you are suggesting...hell, Im not even sure what i am rambling on about here...i just feel there is maybe a disconnect somewhere in understanding young music lovers and their willingness and motivation to become involved in music of any style.... and what it might take to make trad country popular again..if that is even the goal being sought here?

again my opinions only as an observer from sort of outside ..sorry if they offend anyone thats not my intention.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 Mar 2008 12:15 pm

Thanks for posting this, Dave. I don't get Bobbe's Tips anymore, for some reason it stopped coming and despite asking....

Besides Germany and other parts of Europe, country music is huge in Argentina. I think it's odd that here in Mexico, it's virtually unknown. I love all kinds of music, but I'm hoping country music is discovered here, and if it were "rediscovered" in the U.S. that would be cool too.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 13 Mar 2008 12:55 pm

Joe - there have been bluegrass organizations pretty much anywhere I've ever lived or spent significant amounts of time. New England, PA, Ohio, Michigan, CA, TN, you name it. I think there is lots of bedrock support for traditional country music out there, but people just gripe that everything is going to hell instead of doing something about it. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is. One issue may be that bluegrass is more tied to grass-roots folk, which has always been self-organizing and less commercially oriented. Another issue may be that it's quite a bit easier to draw boundaries around bluegrass than country music, so there is less bickering about the definition. There is always some bickering - bluegrass, blues, jazz, rock, you name it, they all bicker somewhat about what is REAL blah blah - but it seems that the notion of country music is a more diffuse concept.

Ben - I play mostly with much younger musicians than myself. Mostly early 20s to 40 or so. I'm absolutely not out of the loop of the scene you're talking about. I definitely agree that young people will come if the music is great. But right now, most lovers of traditional country music are not young. I think we need to pull those people together, and take back the identity of traditional country music. I don't think we need to inject punk energy into traditional country music to get plenty of people interested. I'm not against that in its own context - but I think it would be too divisive in this context. Note that there is large interest in bluegrass music by young people - I know some very young (early 20s) bluegrassers touring right now. I don't see anything like this with what I call traditional country music.

So what I am talking about is pulling people together of all stripes, based upon a love of traditional country music. We need to take back the identity of traditional country music, and at least temporarily, separate it from what's going on in the mainstream. This is what bluegrassers did a long time ago. The focus needs to be on making great country music like the great music of the past was made, but with no compromises. That is not how it developed - it was constantly amalgamating new things, and was always focused on commercial success, IMO.

But now we have historical perspective. Agreement is not complete, but I think it's much more clear what the "great" country music of this period is. We can define these boundaries any way we want to. There would, no doubt, be some disagreement. But in the end, there needs to be a core identity that is firm and rooted. Bill Monroe provided that discipline for bluegrass - traditional country needs something similar.

Once that happens - which might take a while - it would be possible to bring in new ideas, much the way bluegrass has in the last 20-25 years. But I think this consolidation process is essential while we still have some of the progenitors of the style around to help. IMO, it's not too late now, but in 10-20 years, it may be.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 13 Mar 2008 1:08 pm

This is a quote from "Roadkill on the Three Chord Highway" by Colin Escott, from the chapter about Vernon Oxford. I think it's relevant.

<i>" Too country for country music is a hell of a fate, but it is Vernon Oxford's fate. Country music has always paid lip service to its past, but it must be a past that fits into the country music theme park. It must be a past that can be captioned in that special kind of English reserved for Cracker Barrel menus. A past that never really existed. When country music is confronted with a living, breathing specimen who embodies the confrontational truculence of its past, then it doesn't know what to do with him. " </i>

-John

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 13 Mar 2008 1:13 pm

An easy way to start is to have a house concert. There is an amazing network of private people that throw concerts in there living rooms all across the country for there friends. These gigs are great to play and usually pay pretty well.
Lets say you want Dale Watson to play but he is not doing a show near you. You contact him and find out when he will be near you. Make an offer. Lets say $1000. Be flexable about when so he can work it in on a travel day. Get 20 friends together with $50 each and somebody with a big room and have yourself a private concert. All my numbers are random and wildly variable.

There are tons of these type shows going on in an absolutely unorganized network.

It is a simple way to get things going. Helping keep the musicians alive and getting the music out there.

One thing though. When you cook dinner for the band make sure its anything besides vegetarian lasagna...

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 13 Mar 2008 1:17 pm

sorry dave, didnt mean to imply you were out of the loop or anything...it was very difficult for me to put my thoughts into writing and i was trying to be very careful

I am the one who just doesnt understand i guess.

From where i sit the only active "new" artists making great original country music in a traditional vein are largely ignored or rejected by the older trad country lovers. I'm not saying the older crowd should get mohawks and buy GG Allins country recordings or otherwise inject themsleves withpunk rock energy...but there seems to be an unwillingness on their part to acknowledge these artists, or even give them a listen..and i find that puzzling and very contrary to the often expressed desire that trad contry make a comeback in popularity. (John Steeles excellent quote above is what Im getting at also)

Im still not clear on what is being proposed and the "discipline" part and all that.... it sounds to me like organizing and separating out trad country in a fashion similar to what the grassers have done would only serve to further marginalize and separate trad country from the wider audience you seem to be seeking for it. From the oustide I see those grass festivals as very exclusive, and unwelcoming and very rigid in their notion of what is acceptable..and i think that drives many away from rather than TO them.

But since I am admittedly still lost as to the concept being discussed here...perhaps I am way off in what you are proposing?

Mike Cass · Post by **Mike Cass** » 13 Mar 2008 1:26 pm

yup to your first post,Ben! Most folks will listen to alot of different kinds of music including traditional country with steel and fiddle predominant in the sound if its performed well. The average age,sex, nationality etc, of those listening is irrelevant to its appeal and thats what seems to have always scared the music business establishment when trying to market it. IMO what hurts us most are amateurish renditions whether live or recorded, of the classics that drew us all in to begin with. Purposely watered down to appeal to a mass market, it hurts us more than helps us.

Now, Bobby Flores is right on target with his sound and tune selection, etc. He's a proud traditionalist in the truest sense and it shows,live or recorded.
Mighty fine stuff from them boys,vintage or new.
My boss would qualify as another. Heck,we're not even using electric guitar,just amplified gut-string. Not too many folks doing that,Im guessing. You just cant get the true sound with the wrong instrumentation,mix,key,arrangement,etc. Little things, but they become evident when you try to capture the feel and give the listeners what they came to hear, live or recorded.
While country was still country those then-current artists began their careers, many spanning 30+years with their record sales maintaing a decent average whether the artist was alive or deceased, as in Ms. Cline's case for one.
Since the 80's we've seen a new philosophy which says, "we'll give 'em a taste of it on the first release, then its back to James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt-inspired rock ballads for the next 2..." Gradually the artist ends up dissappearing from the landscape after those last 2 singles. Why is that? What made those next 2 singles possible? Maybe it was the traditional sound that interested them in the first place. Makes as much sense as GM winning some safety award for its pickup-truck division, then making all new models without doors or seatbelts.
Nowdays its all about quantity not quality. We can all name the artists who were big guns 6 years ago. Where are the majority now? Some listeners go along with the cookie-cutter/assembly-line fluff, some dont. If the traditional market appears to be dropping its always used as proof by the "new" faction that "....the market for the real deal is dying, therefore lets flood the market with new".
What Ricky Skaggs did with bluegrass needs to happen to traditional country music. He pretty much stuck to his guns and the results are clear.
Im thinking: "Oh,Brother...the 50's-60's". Now Id pay to see that movie

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 13 Mar 2008 1:47 pm

When classic country music was really big (and I was there), the audiences didn't have many young people. Nope, young people have never been hot on what you would call "classic country". Sure, the young 'uns will go to a Hank Jr. concert, or a Willie concert, merely because of the "outlaw" reputation of these artists. They sure wouldn't go see Ray Price, Connie Smith, or some other more conservative artists...not on your life! Young people want an experience, they don't want to just listen to good music. IMHO, this illustrates the difference between "classic country" and hell-raisin' borderline country-rock. It's not what songs are done, but the way they are presented that attracts younger audiences.

The Opry still has some good classic artists, but they really don't know how to present them, nor does the management seem to care much anymore. These days, it's image-oriented, it's all about the "show".

Plain ol' music? Nobody cares much about that these days.

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 13 Mar 2008 1:58 pm

You are "spot on" Donny.

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 13 Mar 2008 2:25 pm

So I'm hearing that we're not going to get the young'ns because we won't have a hot floor show and big screen TV and everything. Well so what?

I think another way to get started is to just book some dance halls, senior citizen centers, what have you, no alcohol, no smoking, and charge at the gate. A friend of mine is doing it in Texas and says its working great. When you make it non-alcoholic you kind of weed out the more rowdy types. Of course then its more of a dance-oriented venue than concert, but I prefer that anyway.

Joe

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 13 Mar 2008 4:48 pm

Ben wrote:

... it sounds to me like organizing and separating out trad country in a fashion similar to what the grassers have done would only serve to further marginalize and separate trad country from the wider audience you seem to be seeking for it.

My suggestion is to emphatically not seek a wider audience. In fact, it is exactly the opposite. I think it would be good to consolidate the traditional country audience and promote undiluted, high-quality, uncompromised country music for it.

I agree 1000% with Mike Cass. No compromise, forget about mass appeal. Let it fly on its merits or fail. But I'm also suggesting at least a temporary and significant break from the current commercial country world. Obviously, some of the major traditional artists aren't going to do this. But it seems to me that the mainstream country world has abandoned - even rebuked - a large enough proportion of these great artists that a bunch of them, coupled with younger traditionalists, could form a large enough critical mass to get a "movement" going.

I also agree with Donny that very young people were not the driving force of traditional country music, much the same as they were not the driving force behind real blues or bluegrass. Right now, the mainstream entertainment biz doesn't seem to care about anybody over 40. OK - let's not cry about that. Blues and especially bluegrass are doing just fine, thank you. We don't need the mainstream entertainment biz. In fact - if such a movement succeeds, they'll be knocking on its doors in due course. If and when that happens, the important part is to not be bowled over and stick to its guns.

I realize that some of this is already happening in places like Texas, and that's great. I think it's proof that it can happen. But I think this needs to be a national and international movement. I think it needs its own organization, similar to the IBMA or the Blues Foundation.

I said in an earlier post that I think there will be some significant resistance to this. Country music has, for many decades, been a very largely commercial form of music, driven mainly by commercial considerations. I'm not an insider, but my sense is that a lot of the decisions were made by record company executives who were really not connected to the music. This approach I'm suggesting is a radical departure, into a world that is governed purely by musical considerations and an attempt to, once and for all, establish a continuing identity for traditional country music. For those expecting quick stardom, big bucks, and lots of mainstream attention, this would not be an appealing approach.

Bob H. - yeah, house parties are doable. I've played house parties over the years, in fact a lot of punk and alternative-whatever bands have done that for the last 20 years or more. In blues, it goes back much further. But I think the organization part is critical. Really, I honestly believe that is a big, big part of why bluegrass has succeeded so well the last 40 years.

One thing though. When you cook dinner for the band make sure its anything besides vegetarian lasagna...

Yeah - barbecue, collard greens, beans, and corn bread.

John S. - yeah, I completely agree. My suggestion is the antithesis of the "Cracker Barrel + Wal Mart" promotional approach. Vernon Oxford would be the archetypical performer I'm talking about.

Joe D. - yeah, I agree on the venue aspect also. I think the music has to be the centerpiece or it won't work. Donny says nobody cares about music. Well, maybe that's true for 70-80% of the population, but 20-30% of 300 million is still a lot of people.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 13 Mar 2008 6:12 pm

Jim Phelps, if you are using Yahoo, you will never get the "Tips news letter". Yahoo won't deliver news letters. We have printed this many times in many places.

If you are NOT on Yahoo, I will again try to get your provider to let the "Tips" through.
Ask me one more time, but the trouble is on your end, not ours.

I want you and everyone on the "Tips mailing list", so let me know.

Remember, no Yahoo.

Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 13 Mar 2008 6:34 pm

Mike Cass I agree with you completely. I will say no more.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 13 Mar 2008 9:20 pm

This is a VERY important post. I totally agree with Dave. Mike Cass makes excellent points. There needs to be a grass roots effort. Maybe state organized "Traditional Country Music Guilds". With an organizer in each state. I have an idea to approach one of the media stars for funding who loves traditional country music. He's worth a couple of hundred million and I think I can get him involved. I might just take this on. I have to see how my time permits. There would need to be a commitee formed with a charter laid out, and a mission statement. Something like "preserving traditional country music" as a primary. Grants could also be applied for. State "Opry" facillities could be organized, and Board Of Directors could be set up. Mike Cass touched on a very important point. Traditional country music has suffered greatly by those seeking to play it on a part time basis. Alot of the players that I have seen try to play traditional country music in the past twenty years were off key singers, out of tune players, musicly ignorant of musical arrangement or music theory, poorly equipped, poorly dressed, hoaky, and amateurish. This does not help the preservation of traditional country music. A great example of the preservation of traditional country music is the Renfro Valley Barn Dance in Renfro Tennesee. The players and management are highly organized and professional and they are successful at what they do. They put on a professionally organized country show including traditonal country comedy. It works. I could just about guaratee that the Cracker Carrel folks would support it immediately. There is alot of power right there.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 13 Mar 2008 10:00 pm

Kevin - I believe you understand clearly what I'm talking about. Yes - it needs to be professionally and proudly done. This needs to be a labor of love or it just won't work.

It may be reasonable to bring in certain types of the right commercial sponsorship. But I am a little suspicious about too much big-money commercial involvement, at least early on. If support has too many strings attached, it could be more harm than help. Grass-roots efforts can be scrambled by a perception of strings from too much outside support.

Specifically, I think it's important to have a filter for commercial interests that would place those interests above the musical interests. People really interested in the music don't care where the financial support comes from if the music is not spot on.

In addition - restricting big commercial sponsorship, again especially in the early stages - is an important filter to bring people in with the correct motivation. Don't get me wrong - I know people need to make money. But if it's just, or even mainly, about money, I don't think this type of thing will work. Big money involvement is, ironically, the thing that has led us to the situation we're in. If you get dependent on big corporate sponsors, then when they say you need to change, you change. Seems like a quote from Dick Haldeman fits: "When you've got 'em by the %^&&$, their hearts and minds will follow."

I think such a movement - to reestablish the identity of and preserve traditional country music - needs to have an aura of complete sincerity to establish credibility. I also think building a strong core base and expanding gradually is the best way to achieve this.

Of course, this kind of stuff needs to be throughly vetted. I just had some ideas - but no corner on the market.

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 14 Mar 2008 5:17 am

It needs to get back to the basics. No smoke, no light shows, no uneducated sound men that have no idea how to mix a steel or fiddle, without the bass the kick drum hitting you in the face. People still love the classic stuff. I have been doing some fill-in gigs in Sandstone on Midwest Country and I see firsthand how much the people still like to hear it. I thought that at one time Branson might have had the idea but the whole concept was too good and soon it became Las Vegas East. If there wasn't a market for it then those guys and gals in Texas wouldn't be enjoying the success that they are.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 14 Mar 2008 7:19 am

committes? charters? the blues is doing just fine?

wow...I dont understand this at all (which probably means its a really good idea)

Joe Drivdahl · Post by **Joe Drivdahl** » 14 Mar 2008 8:23 am

Dave, Kevin:
Count me in. Whatever I can do. As I said, I have some experience with organizing these kinds of things, writing charters, and such. I'll volunteer to be the "Goto guy" in Montana, or Region, whatever it will be. I'm probably putting the cart before the horse, but I'm excited!

Joe

PS: Oh hey Craig. I just read your post. Yeah I caught you on Midwest Country the other night. Sounded good!

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 14 Mar 2008 9:46 am

Ben, the point is that both bluegrass and blues have their own organizations which promote and honor artists in these styles. These organizations have a clear idea what they mean by "bluegrass" or "blues", and they don't have to worry about commercial interests steering them in a very new direction. The identity of each of these styles is very well established, and enthusiasts of traditional bluegrass and blues don't feel abandoned.

Country music is in a peculiar position. They have not one, but two organizations like this - the CMA and the ACM - which, theoretically, play this type of role in promoting the music. But a large contingent of country music enthusiasts - especially older, more traditional style fans, musicians, and singers - feel abandoned. They turn on the radio, and the music these organizations promote is totally foreign to them. They go to the Opry and are put off by a very different look-and-feel - Bobbe posted on a different thread the analogy to American Idol - I understand what they're talking about. Worst yet, they look at the awards shows and they definitely feel like American Idol, to me anyway. Even the Country Music Hall of Fame sometimes feels like it just isn't really thinking about traditional country music anymore.

My entire point is - I think it's a waste of time to try to duke it out with these commercial interests and organizations. Their objective is to make money, period. I think it was pretty much always that way - they just represented a different set of interests 40-50 years ago.

But rather than just gripe about this - it is possible to set up a new organization which is devoted to what I loosely call "traditional country music". Again - to make it clear - I'm talking about following a path that both bluegrass and blues have taken with the IBMA and the Blues Society. These organizations are devoted to promoting their idea of bluegrass and blues, which have remained fairly traditional.

This may sound simple. I think it is far from it. I believe much of the country music establishment is likely to say, "Why are you doing this? We have two organizations plus a HOF devoted to preserving country music. What's the matter with you people?" Some of you out there may feel like this. This has the potential to create some animosity.

I still think it should be done. But to avoid being coopted by purely commercial interests, I think it needs to go down a very different road than the CMA, ACM, or even the CMHOF.

This cannot happen is there is not a groundswell of support at grass-roots levels from people who don't like the way commercial country music is going. This isn't something just a few people can do and force on anybody. If these people don't feel the need to get organized about this, it won't happen. There's nothing wrong with doing this more haphazardly, which I think is already happening in some places. But without organization, I am concerned that this will just dissipate as the decades wear on.

This thread is just a trial balloon of this concept, which I have never heard anybody seriously suggest. Of course, I'm hardly in the center of the music biz, and there may be others thinking along these lines. I figure - if a large group of steel guitar players can't get excited about this concept, there's not much hope for it. No problem, I'll just continue along my merry way.

All my views, of course.

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 14 Mar 2008 10:13 am

Some day there will be a hit movie about traditional country and whammy the whole world will love it. Urban Cowboy 1980 a boom for country and we were all pickin and making money, O Brother, Where Art Thou? 2000 A boom for bluegrass. Before this movie I didn’t see a lot of demand for bluegrass.
We only buy what is widely excepted and fashionable at the time and we have become so overwhelmed by political correctness that we have to be told what we like.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 14 Mar 2008 10:46 am

Bo - I agree that outside events can have an effect. But bluegrass has been doing fine all along, on its own terms. There was a big flood right after Brother, but grass-roots bluegrass has just chugged merrily along for a long time now. I look at it as bluegrass being prepared for a flood of outside interest - its identity and organization were well-established and they were able to really take advantage of it.

I'm probably gonna disagree about how important the Urban Cowboy movement was to traditional country music. Yeah, for a short time it led to a craze in country. There was some good traditional country in the 80s and early 90s, but a lot of it was as much disco/pop as country to my ears. But there was no traditional organization, and when the commercial interests went a different direction, traditional country pretty much collapsed.

I'm not convinced that this situation will be "rescued" by outside events. I see things moving very differently.

We only buy what is widely excepted and fashionable at the time and we have become so overwhelmed by political correctness that we have to be told what we like.

Well - that's what something like this would step up to fight. I think it requires organization - I agree, the powers against are strong.

Nathan Golub · Post by **Nathan Golub** » 14 Mar 2008 11:14 am

Bluegrass was popular before O Brother, it just wasn't popular to large record companies whose main interest is a profit (as any business should be). Bluegrass festivals have been going strong all across the country since the 50's, and many bands have been able to make a living by playing and selling merchandise at these festivals and from the gigs that are a result of the connections made at the festivals. This allows them to continue to play bluegrass music the way they think it should sound without worrying about current trends in the pop market. That reinforces what Dave's saying—it's a musical genre that cultivates its own fan base on a grass roots level, without relying on the support of large record companies that are mainly focused on what's the most popular with the most amount of people.

There're plenty of bands out there right now playing really great country music that doesn't fit the mold of what's hot on the CMT charts, and many of the members of this forum are playing in those bands. If people really want to see traditional country music thrive, it's not going to be on the same playing field as mega-level pop stars. It's very possible for bands to be successful and make enough money to continue playing and making records without the help of a large record label, and by providing festivals and organizations that make it easier for these bands to reach their specific audience, it allows them to continue doing so.

What Dave's suggesting is a great idea. Instead of complaining about the lack of, or more accurately lack of access to a product (in this case traditional country music), he's proposing an idea of how to better support it, cultivate it, and get it to more fans.

Steve Waltz · Post by **Steve Waltz** » 14 Mar 2008 1:12 pm

For examples of success in sub groups of music look at current Rockabilly events. Tom Ingram has been very sucessfull with his Viva Las Vegas weekender every year in Las vegas. He sells out somewhere around two thousand tickets to a three or four day event. People from around the globe travel to vegas just for that show. They go there for traditional Rockabilly, period. That has been the key for the last 10 to fifteen years. 'Traditional' Rockabilly. People don't want a watered down version. Older acts play and they are allowed a little un-hipness but the younger bands know better. There is room for expnading outside of tradition in song structure and lyrics but the overall sound is kept in line.

Maybe two thousnad people isn't huge, but they love it and it keeps them interested in that music for the whole year while they go to local shows that also stick to the same mind set or rules if you would rather call it that.

The festivals in Europe have done well in the same way and they infact started it. Hemsby, Rockabilly Rave and more.

I just don't think there are anywhere near enough truely traditional country bands around that have what it takes to make a festival work in the same way. In a strange way, unless it's extreme in it's adhearance to 50's and 60's country it just won't work. I'm basing that on Rockabilly bands and events that I have seen that did not stick to tradition.

P.S I haven't been to the Vegas show in a few years so maybe it has changed, but they did just start up a second weekend in October.

Steve