Blues Scale

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Several years ago I played with a really good guitar player. He played great but didn't sound like older traditional country. He played out of a Dorian Mode and Blues scale and could fit these scales to almost anything. It didn't sound "Major" chord country, but it was good in it's own right. I tried to show this guitar player how to play a major scale. The major scale was totally foreign to this guitar player and for the life of me I could not teach him to play out of a major scale. I concluded he graduated from a different school than I did. In other words he was a really great player, but came from a different school. I understand and use the Dorian Mode, but I have never been strong using the Blues scale. What are some examples of chords you can play through using one Blues scale?

Carroll Hale · From: EastTexas, USA

this subject interests me also....hopefully, someone will post some really great responses.....need to learn more about scales......

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I would characterize 'blues scales' as attempts to describe the notes that blues players tend to use that are defined by people who can't play blues. Kind of like describing a 'Hemmingway dictionary' comprising the words that Earnest Hemmingway liked to use. Playing a blues scale over blues changes will no more make you play the blues than writing a story by arranging words from the 'Hemmingway dictionary' will make you write like Earnest Hemmingway.

That said, blues scales can be fun if you want to noodle over blues changes and don't really have anything to say, musically. If you want to noodle over blues changes using an E blues scale, some of the chords that would work would be:

E7 A7 B7 G7 D7. C#m
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Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

Ernest Hemingway.

The scalar assesment is a little harsh, too.

KP

David Wren · From: Placerville, California, USA

I've listened to clips of Dan's playing, and if you are interested in blues on steel, I would say his credentials are well established!

With that said, David Wright has some very nice clips of C6th blues on his web site... also very nice!

This could be an interesting thread as it developes.
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Jim Peters · From: St. Louis, Missouri, USA, R.I.P.

Keith, the Dorian scale is a major scale, as are all of the seven basic modes. So your friend knew the major scales without realizing it. Play a blues scale over any 1-4-5 progression( C F G).
I have to agree with Dan T. The scales will get you in the ballpark. Playing a Dorian scale does not make you sound like Santana, but it can help you in your search. Being in blues based bands for the last 20 years in St. Louis has helped me a lot, but jammin with real blues people is an eye opener. Every genre is difficult to play, be it country, jazz, rock or whatever. it is difficult to be really proficient at more than one. Most of the "blues" I hear are not, although I can't really define why, just like my attempts at country can be spotted a mile off by the real country players. JP
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Kyle Everson · From: Nashville, Tennessee

The blues scale is the minor pentatonic scale plus a diminished 5th. It would read:

1 - b3 - 4 - b5 - 5 - b7 - 1.

I do this walkdown using the A pedal starting at the AF position (third fret for E). You can use whichever strings you want to walk the notes, I generally do the 5 - b5 - 4 on the 6th string. You can also do this move at the pedals down position if you raise your first string a half tone, just start it at the 3rd string with pedals down.

Does anyone have this scale in the harmonized (chord) format?

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

One of the problems with playing from a 'blues scale' is that it eliminates that infinute number of notes between the minor and major third that are so integral to the blues. And the steel guitar is so well able to take advantage of all those microtones.

Here's and example of one of my favorite blues players hanging on a major third:

Roy Buchannan

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Keith,
I know this is a serious question, so I won't be glib.
Jamey Aebersold has some great CD's, charts, and explanations. Jamey is a musician and teacher.

Have a look at his website and examine a play along booklet called "Blues in all Keys" (vol.42). You will hear and see, a "12 bar blues" progression that we all have heard a million times.
Now, having said that, you will see and hear tons of chords and chord substitutions that will work with that same basic 12 bar blues progression. The basic progression of chords thru the 12 bars is the same for all keys. But, the substitutions give each song a different sound/groove.
aebersold.com look for Vol. 42 and look and listen to the samples.

The CD has piano, bass, drums. All expert musicians. Using the pan knob, pan one direction and the piano drops out. Pan the other direction and bass drops out.
So, you can play blues lead over the track, or play the chords.

You will see/hear majors, minors, sevenths, 9's, diminisheds, aug,.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

I am interested in the different chords the band can play while a person stays in one particular blues scale. For example, take the C blues scale: If the band changes to various chords, what chords fit good with the C blues scale? Which chords sound maybe good with the C blues scale? Which chords don't work with the C blues scale?

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Keith,

A C blues scale would go with the following chords:

The main ones:

C7 F7 G7

others

Eb7 Bb7 F#dim

David Doggett · Posted 27 Mar 2007 8:59 am

Just to be clear, while the pentatonic scale (1 3b 4 5 7b) is characteristic of the blues sound, most blues are a combination of the major scale or the minor scale and the pentatonic scale. There are some blues songs by people like Fred McDowell, John Lee Hooker and Hounddog Taylor that really use only one chord. And they typically omit the 3rd and have a modal chord or power chord boogie, with only the pentatonic scale. But many other blues songs use the unflatted 3rd mixed with the flatted 3rd, and everything in between. The unflatted third is used to the point that some songs are clearly major, and others clearly minor.

The IIIb chord is very common in blues. And I IIIb IV V7 is a very common progression.

Novice blues musicians try to use a simple melody and the I, IV, V7 12-bar form and it all comes out sounding the same. What they miss is that good blues musicians make the melody much more complex with grace notes, trills, quavers, and slurs. It is very difficult for a novice to capture all of that, and they end up with an oversimplified stereotypical melody that always sounds the same.

Also, the blues is much more than the typical I, IV, V7 12-bar stuff. Minor blues, such as B.B. King's The Thrill is Gone, use the Im, IIIb, IIIbm, IVm, V7 chords. Robert Cray plays minor blues almost exclusively. Modern R&B can get very complicated. The progression for Al Green's beautiful song, Rainin' in My Heart, is - verse: Am E7 C D F G Am G (twice); bridge: F G F G C Am F G (twice). The only note of the scale not used for a chord is B.

The blues - it's a whole world.

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

I could analyze my playing over blues as: licks that work over the I chord, licks to get from the I to the IV chord, IV chord licks, licks to get back to the I from the IV, getting from the I to the V, V chord licks, getting from the V to either the IV or back to the I, and turnarounds to get back to the top of the progression. All of this involves II-V-I progressions, diminished scales and arpeggios, augmented chord arpeggios, 7th, 9th, flat 9 arpeggios, chromatics and more. Every note of the chromatic scale is used. There are lots of implied chords and changes, but it's the basic three chords. Still working this up on the steel, but that's how I do it on the guitar. Not always, because it's not always appropriate.
These are all ideas that I stole from other players on records. Once you figure the idea out you can apply it in different ways, in different places. Especially II-V-I progressions. There's a million of them...Jerry

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

when you talk about genres like blues, rock, punk, metaln country, etc...to me its more than a set of notes and what chords you can play them over. Its also a mindset, a philosophy, a way of life. I think more than most genres da blues has lost that philisophical aspect and has become increasingly about and defined by the formal musical aspect of the genre. am I making sense to you blues dudes? somewhere between robert johnson and a blues lawyer with $15K PRS its lost its social context and for me at least alot of its power and appeal. Im just not really feelin it.

David Doggett · Posted 27 Mar 2007 12:31 pm

It always pays to remember that you can play pentatonic scale runs and arpeggios over any chord. When the chord changes, the scale doesn't.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

I grew up with the notion that blues was what people played that "didn't know any better". Then in the early '90s I played in a real blues band for a few years. Boy, was I ever wrong!

The minor pentatonic scale is the starting point for blues leads, but they can actually include any note from the chromatic scale plus in-betweeners. It's all in the placement. And you can't over-intellectualize a blues solo. The musical knowledge has to become second nature before you can play the blues from your heart and soul.

I feel that blues is the ultimate expression of the American experience. It connects us to appreciative audiences all over the world. No other music encompasses such a variety of stylistic grooves and chord progressions. It ranges from the very simple 12-bar shuffle to funk and jazz - all are built on the fundamental elements of blues.
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Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

J Fletcher · From: London,Ont,Canada

There are a lot of blues styles. Some are based around the pentatonic scale with pitch shading of flattened fifths, thirds and sevenths, say like early Muddy Waters, and the other end of the blues spectrum might be somebody like Wes Montgomery who used a more sophisticated approach when playing blues. More outside of the box. Still blues to me.
Lots and lots of people and styles in between those two artists. I listen to Muddy Waters more than Wes Montgomery, but if I hear a lick I like, it's nice to figure it out, and absorb it into my playing...Jerry

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Keith
here are 12 bars
1411 441(16) 2-515

I did not include the chord extensions above 'cause it gets kinda messy.

With the 1, Use a 1,17, or 19.
with the 4, use a 4,47, or 49. A 4- sounds good and will take the arrangement to a different feel.
with the 6, use a 67
With the 2, use either a 2 or 2- with extensions.
with the 5, use 5,57,59.

Now, there are lots of other extensions and substitutions, and passing chords. A lifetime of playing.
One example, and then I'll go. The 12th bar(the last bar). sub a 7dim for the 59. Or split the bar and play (59 7dim).

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

What b0b said.

But outside of that, in many cases steelers are thinking in a completely different way from most guitar players, especially electric blues players in the King(s), Clapton, Bloomfield, etc. school.

Most guitar players in blues and blues-based rock (except the more advanced blues players that b0b alluded to)....read this carefully...don't think or play in terms of scales or modes.

Guitar players - most of them, having been one and been both a teacher AND student for decades - play out of positions. Jazz and classical players are the notable exceptions (along with some of the melodic-metal guys).

I'm generalizing, to be sure - but most guitar players use as "home base" one of two basic positions - the "blues box" and the "country (or "major") box".

In A, for example, the position works from the 5th fret down to the 2nd fret (on the 1st, 2nd and 6th strings) and 4th to 2nd (on the 3rd, 4th and 5th strings) - that being the "country box". Start and end on the 5th fret of the 1st or 6th string and you've got essentially a major pentatonic (but you have to NOT think in that terminology).

Slide the whole mess up to the 5th=>8th fret and STILL end on the 5th fret 1st and 6th strings, and you have the "blues box".

This is the whole thing boiled down to its most basic form. Then you learn how to slide up a few notes, add bends, and find other positions - all of them actually based around chords you can grab quickly, for playing rhythm or arpeggios.

But it's thinking "blues scale" or "Dorian mode" that ends up making players play the right notes but sound wrong. You HAVE to learn (if you've grown up learning scales) how to NOT think in terms of scales, and instead see geometric patterns - then it becomes a matter of "feel", and you start to get the picture. But thinking in terms of scales, you're thinking in terms of "notes" - and your "blues playing" will sound mechanical and forced.

It's an easy thing to teach beginning guitarists, and they can start playing coherent, if simple, lead breaks pretty quickly. If they are classic rock fans, they're home free, as 99% of it is based on that same concept (note - "based", not locked into it - again, I'm simplifying it - but it is the "root" of most rock, blues/rock and country/rock guitar playing).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, don't overthink it - the more you try to analyze it musically, the further you get from the feel of the playing. Find the patterns, and just noodle around until you find pleasing things - don't keep track of intervals or what notes you're playing - just *listen*, play, listen some more.....

I've found that most steel players who did not come from a rock guitar background have a really hard time grasping the idea of NOT thinking in terms of scales (except guys who started way back and just played - Sneaky Pete is an example of a non-schooled player who did not think in terms of scales....his approach was all sound and geometry; the exact "what" and "why" were not so relevant).

On the flip side, when playing steel I have no clue how to find or play scales - I'm looking for patterns. I'm just starting to find several ones that I use the same way, but the blues ones are still elusive. Guys start talking scales, modes...I get the deer in the headlights look.

I don't know if that helps or not, but maybe it explains some of the differences in approach.
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Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

no, no, no.....I'm pretty sure you gotta go down to the crossroads and make a deal with the devil...only now there's a Starbucks on each corner of the crossroads and the devil will be wearing Gucci.

I play as Jim described, so do ALL the guitarists I know. Nothing wrong with knowing all that fancy book learnin, but we are never thinking "dorian mode, okay, now hammer on f# to G to G#..ooh think I'll run a pentatonic minor scale here and throw in a few tasty microtones!".

Finding that "blues box" on PSG should be in every intro lesson. for some reason no one wants to share that info. no biggie , I'll go it alone and meet you down at the crossroads.

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I agree with what Dan, b0b, and Jim say here. Blues is not a northern European music, and at heart is not based on northern European music scale note choices, but African music note choices, which are quite different. But there was a strong mixing with church music in the South, so it's not as if there's no place for Western scales. My favorite blues players are able to slide in and out of those different modalities at the right times. But there are some that stick to the more pure African note choices. I get very tired of many Western music scholars (and many less learned fans of Western musical styles) saying this is so limited and boring, because there's a lot going on that doesn't fit into the Western music framework that I doubt they hear. To them, it's just over-simplified and out-of-tune. I have these "discussions" way too frequently.

I think box patterns are one way to systematize blues playing, but just like scale patterns, they're merely a rough guide to how to get close to certain note patterns. IMO, to rely on that without the ears produces a lot of bad blues - if you ain't feelin' it, you cain't play it.

Another point - the primary method of transmission of African musical styles has been oral, not written. That worked because it's primarily based on feeling, not technical note choices. There's a huge amount of flexibibility in blues note choices. Another mis-perception among many Western scholars is that there is something wrong with not being able to replicate something exactly. That kind of replication is possible when the pitches and meters are fixed. In blues, there are literally an infinite range of pitches and rhythms possible and still perfectly fit over something, and it's OK, and even expected, to change it up.

All IMO, of course.

Brint Hannay · From: Maryland, USA

Well said, Dave. (and Dan, b0b, and Jim.)

C. Christofferson · Posted 28 Mar 2007 7:54 am

You think we've got it hard with note choices, on Eastern, perhaps Arab &/or Indian(?) instruments, at least some, they use 'quarter tones' - the pitch halfway between our notes. For example, on the software versions there will be the normal 12 notes displayed on a keyboard like shape,,by clicking on any one of those notes it switches it to 1/4 tone lower. There are ancient 'rules' that are applied to the playing of those types of scales but who knows what they might be?

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