Scarcity of lousy steel playing

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 13 Oct 2004 8:07 am

Hi folks,

I was thinking recently about how rarely we hear lousy steel playing. It seems that a majority of the recordings that have steel on them feature players who are among the best of the best.

In the live environment, it's hard to run into any steel at all in most parts of the country.

The result is that, for most of us, our only exposure to steel is from hearing The Masters.

In contrast, it's easy to find lousy guitar playing --even on recordings!

I was thinking that this scarcity of lousy steel playing is part of what makes this instrument so daunting to learn.

For many beginning steel players, the only lousy steel playing they hear is their own! This can lead a beginner to think that they just don't have "it" and drop the instrument prematurely.

Thoughts?

-GV

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 13 Oct 2004 8:33 am

a majority of the recordings that have steel on them feature players who are among the best of the best.

it's easy to find lousy guitar playing --even on recordings!

My impression is that any producer who would know enough to get one of the best steel players in the world would at minimum get a good guitarist. Exactly where are you finding recordings featuring the best steel players in the world with inferior guitarists?

------------------
Jeff's Jazz

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 13 Oct 2004 8:51 am

Read Greg´s post. He did not explicitly talk about recordings that have BOTH guitar AND steel on them...

Regards, JH

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 13 Oct 2004 8:57 am

I'm not saying I can cite recordings with both lousy guitar and great steel, Jeff, but I can find plenty of lousy guitar (by itself --no steel) on punk rock records and indie rock records and garage band demos & stuff. -GV

Jerry Hayes R.I.P. · Post by **Jerry Hayes R.I.P.** » 13 Oct 2004 9:37 am

Hi Greg,
...I don't know what you'd mean by lousy guitar playing in punk rock, indie rock, etc. I don't particularly like that type of music but in it's own context the player might be valid. Some of the old Delta Blues players were extremely out of tune and couldn't pick or sing to save their souls but the music had something, maybe like real soul. I think that some players get so advanced in their technique that they consider simple music as "bad" or "lousy" and not worth listening to. There was a topic somewhere years ago about Luther Perkins who played for Johnny Cash for the first 10 or 12 years of his career until he died in a home fire. Some of the folks really cut into Luther's ability and lack of polish. But could you imagine any of those old Cash Sun records with any other guitar work on them? It was basic and simple and sometimes out of tune but it was perfect! It fit the music and nothing else would have worked IMHO. I'm not a fan of punk or some of the strange other rock styles but some of the players are magnificent. Have you ever heard Johnny 5? He can pick with the best of 'em and can flatpick, fingerpick, and do just about any style he want's to. He's mostly known for his work with Marilyn Manson. I'm going to get his CD as soon as I can find it. Others cite the steel work in "Teach Your Children" by CSNY as being pretty terrible but I can't imagine the song with anything else on it. I've heard remakes of that tune with much more acccomplished steel players on them but they just didn't have that "raw" edge. Have a good 'un....JH

------------------
Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Oct 2004 9:38 am

I remember a hit by Cheryl Crow about 10 years ago that had some really amateurish steel on it. There's some lousy steel playing on a couple of Rolling Stones tracks as well.

It seems that there's a common pattern where a lead guitarist in a rock band starts dabbling in pedal steel, and the band decides to include it on a record way too soon. There's a lot of bad steel on rock album cuts, but not much of it makes it to the radio.

Country radio gets the best steel players in the world. And why not? Pedal steel is one of the defining sounds of country music. You gotta do it right if you want the record to be a hit.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/Hotb0b.gif" width="96 height="96">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs, Open Hearts
Sierra SD-12 (Ext E9), Williams D-12 Crossover, Sierra S-12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (E6add9), Fender Stringmaster (E13, C6, A6)

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 13 Oct 2004 10:13 am

Earnest Ellington says:
If it sounds bad, it IS bad.

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 13 Oct 2004 10:20 am

Bob- remember Stealer's Wheel "Stuck In The Middle With You"? Still gets played on classic rock radio...sounds like the same "steel player"; the song is in the same key, almost the same vibe!

Jordan Shapiro · Post by **Jordan Shapiro** » 13 Oct 2004 10:48 am

I have often thought the same thing as G.V. here.

I think what defines "good" steel or guitar, is the way it fits into the music or song, not just playing in tune or correctly striking notes.

With that definition, I would have to say that G.V. is right. I hear more crappy guitar on recordings than I do crappy steel. It is intimadating for a relative beginner like myself.

(By the way, Greg, if you want to hear some shoddy steel, ask Ray to play you some of the stuff I did in his studio. That should give you a little boost!!)

Rick Derringer played the steel on a Johnny Winter recording of "ain't nothin' to me". I wouldn't call it great steel playing, but it fit the song so well, you just can't f*ck with it. It's perfect. Same with all the old blues guys. That stuff is untouchable.

I grew up playing "punk", whatever that means now, I dunno. There were guys playing that had no feel or talent, then there were those that were able to get a feeling across with their instruments and voices even though they weren't that "good".

Anyway, I think as the steel guitar gains popularity(which I believe it is doing) I do hear more "questionable" playing released on recordings. Personally, I like the bar being high for steel players. It helps keep me humble and shooting for for the stars, not " ok, that's good enough".
Jordan

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 13 Oct 2004 11:21 am

I agree with b0b, some rock tracks and alt country tracks have, shall we call it "novice," steel playing. Jerry Garcia comes to mind, but also some recent tracks on indie alt country labels. But some of this novice playing, while simple, is effective in the context. It's just not Nashville flashy.

The whole punk rock movement came from the idea that music had gotten too slick and commercial, and that heartfelt, honest playing by amateurs and novices was more "real." Early Sonic Youth albums are examples of post-punk novices making simple but effective music. They played open tuned guitars with single finger bar chords. Richie Havens had hits in the '60s playing the same way. For novice jazz, listen to the Lounge Lizards. The simple fact is that music can have entertainment value beyond technical virtuosity.

You want some really bad pedal steel playing? Come to one of my gigs. I got your bad steel playin' for yuh. I'll be at the Mermaid Inn in Northwest Philly this Friday night.

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 13 Oct 2004 12:38 pm

b0b, John, that's not bad steel playing on the Cheryl Crow and Steeler's Wheel records. It's bad slide guitar playing.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 13 Oct 2004 12:49 pm

There's a continuum of steel proficiency and quality that ranges from good to great to excellent to "holy mackerel".

The only steel part that makes me wanna chuckle when I hear it is the end run at the end of Highway 101's "Honky Tonk Heart" with the scale run downward. Makes me wanna laugh every time I hear it, mostly due to its simplicity and how it sounds like the steel I used to hear on WWOL radio out of Buffalo, NY circa 1964. [This message was edited by Ray Minich on 14 October 2004 at 04:34 PM.]

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 13 Oct 2004 1:08 pm

Technique does NOT equate to musicality, nor vice versa. It is sometimes discouraging to listen to Steel/country music, because most of the players are just incredible, and usually musical too.An other way to look at this;can you name any pop/rock song that would be better with Eric Johnson playing on it? Woul Loui Louie have been better with Jeff Beck? On and on! But most of the steel songs we have to learn and listen to have these bad-ass players on them, always just out of the average players reach. Jim P

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 Oct 2004 1:16 pm

Stephen, I don't know about on the Sheryl Crow recording, but I saw her perform the song, "All I Wanna Do" on several TV shows, which I think was her first big hit and the one being referred to, and there was a guy on steel who appeared to be playing the parts. Maybe he was just faking it to a record with bad slide guitar? All I know is her band had a guy sitting at a steel. I was working in a TV station at the time and saw her and her band all over it (TV).[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 October 2004 at 02:19 PM.]

Bobby Boggs · Post by **Bobby Boggs** » 13 Oct 2004 1:29 pm

I like the words b0b chose.

really amateurish steel on it

....bb

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 13 Oct 2004 1:30 pm

Anyone looking for lousy steel playing has only to listen to me!

------------------
Sho-Bud ProII, Pro III,
Nash 400,Hilton pedal,
RV-5."There's been an awful murder, down on music row"

Bob Hickish · Post by **Bob Hickish** » 13 Oct 2004 3:41 pm

Hay Guy's I think Greg's Last paragraph of
his post is the key to what he is asking !
Greg ! all I can say is there is always
a steel player that is better than you or me
or most of the players we are talking to .
just say Loyd Green -Buddy E - or any number of them here on the forum and there light years ahead most of us - BUT ! If you were saying you are a student of the steel and enjoy it ! DON'T
EVER Quit !! no mater what !! you will find that you have as much to offer the steel world as all of us here do , in our own
ways
BH

Tommy Allison · Post by **Tommy Allison** » 13 Oct 2004 4:12 pm

Greg,I bought my first pedal steel,a used Fender 1000,about 1975. The band I was playing with at the time was practicing at the bar we where going to play the following Sat. night. A couple of good ol' boys, after listening to several songs,during witch time I changed back and forth several times between the steel and my old strat suggested I get rid of that steel and stick with the guitar. That's probably the most polite way i've ever been told that my playing sucks. But I diddn't give up and now all these years latter I'm playing steel with a country band and during a 4 hour gig I'm only asked to play lead on 4 or 5 songs. I still think those guys were right,my playing sucks. But that's what keeps me going. Always trying to improve. I sure hope I never get happy with my playing.

Farris Currie · Post by **Farris Currie** » 13 Oct 2004 4:22 pm

Gotta bring it out of the bed room sometimes! get out there and drive em wild!!
we learned in the country bars!! sold a lot of drinks!!!those were the DAYS!!!

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 13 Oct 2004 4:34 pm

Jim, when I saw her do the song on TV, some guy was playing the little slide part on a Telecaster---doesn't matter, still wasn't much of a technical display, was it? But a pretty good pop tune---WITHOUT Kid Rock!

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 13 Oct 2004 4:45 pm

Stephen - I missed that one. You're right though, either way it was lame playing... I feel bad for the steel players in the cover bands who played that song and had to "play it like the record". I still think the recorded version is non-pedal steel though, because some parts of the song the player hits chords, and sounds like too big a chord for slide guitar...maybe the guy with the Tele was doing the faking or filling-in...wasn't there a video too, showing a steel player? Anyway it doesn't matter.

Funny thing is, it was a huge hit and I'd bet that steel/slide/whatever part had a lot to do with making it unique from the other songs, and helped make it a hit. Proof that even lame steel (or slide guitar?) is better than none![This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 13 October 2004 at 05:52 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 13 Oct 2004 5:56 pm

The only LOUSY Steel Playing I can remember was on a King Sunny Ade recording some twenty years ago. I could only surmmise that it was done as a tribute to the original "cargo tribe method" of finding things alien to them and using them as they best could with a totally blank page.

Given that, it was still hard to listen to.

Ms Crow used a pedal steel guitar on "All I want to do". Anybody recognize the behind the seventh fret strumming of our favorite 9-5 chord at the end? The same one at the end of At E's. I think it might be best to find who it was that cut the session before getting too far out on a limb there Stevo..

Pedal steel is still such a young instrument that "schools of style" are still less than a hundred years old.

I'd feel pretty sheepish about calling anything "lousy".

Maybe playing done with a lousy attitude...

I'd have to plead guilt on that myself as recently as last night...

Thank God I didn't get busted.

EJL

Les Pierce · Post by **Les Pierce** » 13 Oct 2004 7:34 pm

Perhaps we could substitute the word "tasteless" for "lousy".

Then I would agree, there is deffinitely more tasteless guitar playing, than tasteless steel playing, on commercial recordings in every genre. (Except, maybe, some of the new "Texas" music).

Les

------------------
Strat,Tele
Dekley S-10

Nic du Toit · Post by **Nic du Toit** » 14 Oct 2004 9:44 am

Gregg,
I like your post. Because the producers would their product to sell they have to use the "biggies" on steel.
I am sure there are non professional payers are hotshot players. As a bedroom steel player I dared to put an album out. Listening to it may cause some a few laughs, or maybe serve to encourage other average players.
Check it out. You may like it.

------------------
<img align=left src="http://home.telkomsa.net/peterden/al%20saut/images/nightmarefront85.jpg" border="0">Nic du Toit
1980 Emmons P/P
Peavey Session 500
NEW CD "Nightmare on Emmons Steel"
<A class=db href="mailto:alsaut@absamail.co.za?subject=Forum Reply">Click here to E-mail us.</A>

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 14 Oct 2004 12:26 pm

There's no scarcity of lousy steel playing in my house.