How about reading music?

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Melinda:
When I write tab, I always include the notation, chords and lyrics. After you have played a while you develop an insight between the tab (strings, frets, etc.) and the chords and notation. After some time you will be able to eliminate the tab. You will be able to just play off the notes and chords.

Erv

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I'm pleased that John Steele put the 'Emmons/Atkins/whoever' misquotes in proper perspective. I know it's difficult to imagine Our Hero finding himself at a disadvantage in any musical situation, but he's made it clear that he was less-than-comfortable on those occasions.

A sound knowledge of theory is vital if you're serious about playing, but the ability to read will make you an even better musician - I don't care who you are!

I'm disappointed every time I read of someone expressing pride in their inability to do so.

RR

Nathan Delacretaz · From: Austin, Texas, USA

Hi Melinda,

First off, welcome from one newcomer to another. I think if you're talking strictly about the value of theory/reading, it's helpful to disregard what instrument you're talking about - I mean, G,B,D (concert pitches) is a G major triad on any instrument you choose. Once you establish how patterns and relationships show up in any particular tuning on any instrument, you're more than halfway home... It's the basic logic - not some magical talent, though some DO have it - that gets you rolling...

For steel specifically, you'll find that sight reading is pretty hard because you need your eyes to direct you around the fretboard (unlike a guitar, you can't "feel" distances between frets!...at least I can't!)... But all the theory rules and formulas are right there waiting to be found...

All the best!

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

quote:
Chas.,Carl,Mike P.
Please correct me if this is a bad/wrong direction...

It's not the approach I would use, but if it works, it's not bad or wrong.

My approach to teaching is to show students all the chord positions, which of course involves the use of knee levers. Melinda, if you're reading this, I again urge you to pick up a guitar with 10or 12 strings, 3 pedals and at least 3 knee levers. Preferably 4 or 5. It can be a Carter Starter or a used pro model, but sooner or later you'll see that you are really handicapped by not having a guitar that is capable of playing many of the things you will want to play.

I think having a steel guitar without enough knee levers is like having a 6 string guitar with missing frets.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Without highly developed sight-reading skills, you cannot survive in the cutthroat Los Angeles studio scene.

Edited for Size

[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 19 March 2003 at 08:35 AM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

no sharps, no flats -- HOLY COW -- I can handle that!!!
(EB: you crack me up, as usual)

As others have said, understanding music -- scale/chord construction and other aspects of how the music we play is structured is far more important in the real world of steel guitar than sightreading. Since your profile lists your occupation as violist I have no doubt you have the theory aspects covered.

I presume when you say you don't read on guitar or fiddle, you're referring to sightreading. Many good steel players read music in the 'See Spot Run' mode -- they know where the notes are on the staff, may read on other instruments, but haven't seen the real need to develop sightreading skills. MUCH MORE IMPORTANT is to be able to read chord charts and improvise over those charts at the drop of a hat. THAT'S what I'd advise you to concentrate on.

and, btw,

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

There is simply no reasonalbe rationale for extolling and condoning ignorance; regardless of how innocent that ingnorance may have been come about.

Knowledge is the foundation of all we know, excluding spiritual things which is absolute. ANY player will be a better player, everything else being equal, with musical theory training.

I liken this to personal experience which I will share with you.

The Largest corporation in the world (formerly) was A T & T. From its birth, its foundation was to keep its technician "fat, dumb and happy". IE, they were told ONLY enough to do precisely what the powers to be wanted done.

In a word. "Don't think, simply put the copper wire on the red screw and the silver wire on the green screw". And don't asky why."

When A T % T's back was broken bye Federal court Judge Green and competition was allowed to enjoy some of the spoils of that monopoly, A T % T was forced to hire outside Instrutors to train life long employees "HOW" to compete and learn products different than what they had grown up with.

I was one of those instructors. And the following statement was repeated in my classrooms coast to coast many times, over a 10 yr period.

"I have 30+ (typical) yrs with the Bell system and NEVER understood what you just taught me in less than an hour. OH how I wish I had known this 25 yrs ago. How much better my job would have been!".

To summarize. The more one learns, the better they are at whatever they are doing. Finally, knowing musical theory doth NOT make a great player. But a great player knowing musical theory doth make a better great player.

God bless all greats; and all of you,

carl

Eric West · From: Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.

Also, it's good to keep in the back of one's mind that "reading" is the act of putting a sheet of unseen music in a music stand and playing it.

Anything else is just a memory aid.

"I cain't cypher none, but I can trace".

-Festus Hagen-

Jeff Lampert · From: queens, new york city

No matter who you are or how good you are, knowing music theory can only make you a better player. Too many players don't understand the point of theory. Theory gives you options of what can be done that you would not ordinarily think of. Once you explore these options, you will take the ones you like, and assimilate them into your style, at which point they will cease to be theory (to you that is), and be part of your normal playing repertoire. We as steel players do not have a high enough profile and are not accepted in the global music stage enough to where we can take dismissive attitudes on these subjects which are embraced all categories of musicians.

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[url=http://www.mightyfinemusic.com/jeff's_jazz.htm]Jeff's Jazz[/url]

Buck Grantham · From: Denham Springs, LA. USA

LEARN TO READ! You will never be sorry.It can only help you.

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

That Looney Tunes chart, high-larious. Hey, but what do you do during measure 10? Get Mel Blanc some more Lucky Strikes perhaps. Great topic, sorry for the digression.

G

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

Ok I did read all this and there are some really clear reasons for knowing theory.
1 Is you can apply your existing reading abilities faster and sooner.

More strings on a bass IS better by far and a few more frets doesn't hurt either. I have a 6 string bass with 28 frets.. sure I don't play every note on it every night, but I have played ALL the notes on it in practical situations. I have played a 6 string upright contrabass and it was a wonderful instrument

My violinist friend plays a 5 string violin and gets VERY grumpy when he has to go back to a 4 string... no viola tones. I get the same way on 4 string basses... there's something missing. I get that way on my upright bass too; missing notes and positions.

Theory and the understanding of how music is constructed will take you much farther on your 8 string while you think about getting a pedal instrument.
Mel Bay's books give a logical basis of how your instrument is layed out, even if you don't have some notes available.
Learn what's there THEN you can say it's stupid.
There are a lot of possibilities for the 8 string that you most likely have not considered, because the theory of why and when to use them is not strong yet.

Yes Buddy E had an increadable ear, but he used huge amounts of theory in a practical way intuitavly. But also he came upon that theory by both trial and error and talking with other musicians. You can jump start that process with a good teacher.
It isn't so much the sight reading which helps, but knowing construction. Sight reading if your do it already helps a lot. it can tie the steel togehter with what you use now, the violin and viola.

Jeff Lampert couldn't get close to his arrangments without a thorough understanding of musics stuctures and the possiblities there in.
And I couldn't properly understand what he is doing without my theory background. Which I will add is not as strong as his.
Same for Dr. Hugh (ps. Dr your cd arrived; cool) Mike P. and many others here who are really pushing the PSG to new heights..

It is because of my theory that I am getting a ole Sho-bud (and for a lot less than $2,000).
I play 6 string lapsteel and dobro in varying tunings. Because of theory I can switch tunings and do more with each of them.

C6 /A7 is a very cool tuning and the Leavitt tuning is huge, but requiers lots of theory to really make effective. But worth it.

I will still play my "smaller steels" for some projects, but the power the Sho-Bud gives me is demanded by the theory I use for my music.

Your music as decsribed above would not absolutly need that power, but a C6/A7 or Leavitt on your 8 string could give you decades of possibilities as Jody stated.

Look in the tunings section of the forum and try some tunings there, there are some fine 8 string tunings there, and then try and figure out what's happening with them.
That's theory too.

As far as tab for the steel it's a great thing and even better if coupled with analysis of why the licks work.

If you can expand your understanding AND your licks in parallel, sooner or later the theory will lead you to licks that aren't in the tab, or better ways to tie those licks together into your own style.
Also you will grasp a piece of music MUCH faster if you can look at a chord grid and see the posibilites right off.

So it really is win win; theory and Tab.
A pedal steel really needs good analysis of music structure to make it powerfull and musical. And to get your own sound with it.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 20 March 2003 at 01:27 PM.]

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

Impressive, Gerald
Steel players CAN read music.
And even PROOFread music

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Gerald Menke · From: Stormville NY, USA

Ah Larry, you are too kind! I really liked your comment about how important it is too be able to read a chord chart and improvise. I am no hotshot reader, but I do think at the end of the day, those of us who can read a chart AND play something really tasteful and appropriate are the ones who will prevail. Even in the cutthroat L.A. studio scene. Errors in the score notwithstanding. I would have taken advantage of that missing measure to check my tuning...see my other thread.

Leroy Riggs · From: Looney Tunes, R.I.P.

I am just now learning to read music after playing by ear (on the steel) for nearly 18 years. Reading music and applying it to any music instrument is important but let me tell you, I would never willingly give up my ability to play by ear. Being able to play by ear is just as important as reading music and applying it.

Bobby Lee · From: Cloverdale, California, USA

chas smith · From: Encino, CA, USA

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

There are great musicians who read music only. There are great musicians who play by ear only. But the greatest are those that can read music AND play by ear.

carl

Larry Bell · From: Englewood, Florida

There's SERIOUS WISDOM in that statement, Carl.

I have been involved with about a half dozen productions of a Broadway musical involving a certain bawdy house in the Lone Star State. We have used both fiddle players, most of whom wouldn't know a crescendo from a box of Cracker Jacks, and violinists who couldn't find an ad lib solo with both hands

but who sightread like there's no tomorrow.

The fiddlers struggle with the parts that require faithful reproduction of the notes on the page (and usually just play off the top of their heads and hope for the best) and really shine on any ad lib parts AND on the traditional warm up tune OBS.

The violinists breeze right through everything, UNTIL it comes time to improvise. One example was the Concertmaster of the Kalamazoo Symphony at the time(yeah, I know, it ain't the Philharmonic, but it's the best we have), a very well respected player and music professor with the doctorate to prove it. TONE TO THE BONE (on violin, at any rate), but very little soul to be found anywhere. I nearly rolled on the floor when I first heard his version of OBS. IT IS VERY DIFFICULT TO MIX THE TWO DISCIPLINES.

That's not to say that a great improvisor will spoil his/her playing by learning to read. In the jazz world, both go hand in hand very well, and most don't get far with high level jazz improvisation without learning to read proficiently.

By the same token, a great classical player who begins improvising late in his/her career has to work VERY hard (in most cases) to avoid having their ad lib solos sound like finger exercise and scale etudes. The technique is wonderful (maybe TOO wonderful if fiddle is what you're after) but the soul ain't there.

Melinda: since you are classically trained, I would be curious to hear your approach to making fiddle sound like it should without damaging your viola chops.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 21 March 2003 at 06:26 AM.]

Rex Thomas · From: Thompson's Station, TN

Earnest!! LOL!!!

I wasn't expecting the good laugh!
Earnest is right though, reading is a good thing.
I wonder if Freddie's part looked like that.

David L. Donald · From: Koh Samui Island, Thailand

The bestkind of violinist is the cat;
who started with proper classical training, but also had country and jazz in the family.

They got down the good reading chops, but they are not locked into a box.

I play with one like that tommorrow night.

I put a TOUGH chart in front of him and he reads it down with feeling. Throw out a chord from Mars at him in a jam and he just grabs it and runs.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 22 March 2003 at 02:11 AM.]

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