How about reading music?

Melinda Dauley · From: Tacoma, Washington, USA

I was reading the stupid Mel Bay book that I bought the other day. I feel ripped off because I can't return the dumb thing. (It's for 10 string with knee levers when I have an 8 with none.) However, I did get one little tidbit from the book. It told me that steel players are benefitted a lot from reading music and knowing chord structure. In your all's opinion, is this true? Does having a background in other musical instruments or being able to read music or getting structured lessons to teach you to read steel music, help a lot?
I don't personally read music for playing around on fiddle or guitar but I sure use it for playing viola.
Thanks in advance for all your replies.
Melinda

chas smith · From: Encino, CA, USA

Melinda, it's like everything else, the more education you have, the greater the possibilities are going to be. You don't have to know how to read music or very much about chord structures (harmony and theory) to play an instrument, but the more you know, the easier it will be to learn how to play it and ultimately, it will help you to be a better player. If you decide to play with other players and they call out chord changes, it'll be a lot more fun if you know where they are. Or if they just call out a key, you'll know what chords are in it and what to expect.

There's no shortage of musicians who are convinced that they don't need to make the effort to learn scales, harmony and theory and they all have great reasons like: "it will interfere with my creativity or my inspiration". The reality, though, is it limits what they can do with their inspiration.

So the point of all this is, if you are really serious about being a player, it will benefit you to learn as much as you possibly can.

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

I would add to what Chas said. There is a door to a great big amazing world of music that can lead to wonderful things. I envy composers and scorers and those folks who can hear an entire symphony with all the instruments in their heads.

I only peeked in the keyhole to learn some of the basics, but it does make a difference in that it makes your musical life richer, more knowledgeable and more fun.

Mike Delaney · From: Fort Madison, IA

Pleasure to meet you Melinda. I agree whole heartedly with Chas and Ken. The more you know, the more you can discover.

If you want to study harmony and theory in depth, you have to read music, because the instructor ain't gonna TAB it out for you.

Michael T. Hermsmeyer · From: Branson, Missouri, USA

Hi Melinda, I started in school bands in the 5th grade on drums. I wouldn't trade a day of my musical education for the world. Everything you learn on any instrument today can end up being a valuable asset in the future, even on a different instrument. Especially with stringed instruments, remember there are still only twelve frets or spaces per octave on a string, or one chromatic scale. That is the same whether it's your viola, your steel or even a freaking banjo, LOL. Sorry. Yes every instrument has different techniques to master it, but they are all related. And as you know, music is the only universal language.
It is a benefit that you read music, but you will soon find with steel that you must learn to rely on your ears even more. I am sure you have a great set of ears since you play the violin family. You have a great headstart. I have been reading music since I was a little kid, but I have yet to walk into a night club and the bandleader sets down a stack of scores in front of me, LOL.
Find a good instructor in your area, learn the basics, and don't be scared to experiment on your own. Where would any of us be if Buddy Emmons had never gotten past "Mary Had A Little Lamb", LOL.
Shoot you will probably be coming to Branson and steal all my gigs by this time next year, LOL. Wait, I don't have a gig..... Well, if I do by then you will probably be good enough to steal it, LOL.
Take care, God Bless, and have a great time with the steel.
Michael T.

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Martin Weenick · From: Lecanto, FL, USA

Buddy Emmons once said that he could read a little music, but not enough to hurt his playin. I believe everything he says.

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Martin W. Emmons LG III 3/5 Peavy 1000

Jerry Hayes · From: Virginia Beach, Va.

Hey Melinda,
If you're just starting out I think you should get rid of that 8 string Fender unless it's got some sentimental value. You could probably get enough out of it to buy a Carter Starter on which you could really get going on what's going on on pedal steel today. You're going to have to cut a lot of corners on an 8 string and make some compromises.
As far as reading music, it helps to know it but you'll probably never do a gig with music in front of you. Most steelers do it by tablature these days. Have a great day...JH

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Livin' in the Past and the Future with a 12 string Mooney Universal tuning.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I'm not sure I completely agree with Jerry about dumping the Fender- you might want it at some point in the future. But he is absolutely right about getting a Carter Starter or some other guitar with 10 strings and 4 knee levers.

As for reading music, I think it's a good idea, but not while you're learning. Conventional notation is the best way to learn some other instruments, but not the pedal steel guitar. It tells what notes to play, but on our instrument, that's not enough information.

I say learn to play by using tab, but as soon as you know your way around the instrument, stop using tape and use your ears and the knowledge you've previously attained. When after you're really comfortable on the instrument, learn how to read music for it.

Bob Blair · From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

The problem you will have with available instructional material is that it has all been written making certain assumptions about equipment. In the seventies, "student" model guitars all had ten strings, three pedals and one knee lever. Now, the assumption is that a beginner will have four knee levers. And that is what the people who develop instructional material are mostly writing for.

If your Fender is set up to give you a "subset" of what is availabe on a more modern instrument, you can still use some of the information that is available. How is your guitar tuned and what do the pedals do?

Being well grounded in music theory will help you a lot in figuring out how to adapt what you are reading about to the Fender. If you can find a good local instrucotor it will help. Dan Tyack is one of the top players in your area (and a top player, period). I don't know if Dan gives lesons, but he would sure know who does. You can find him on this forum and e-mail him. And go check him out when he is playing somewhere.

It is really important to get working on technique right away, and you can do that quite adequately on your Fender.

Good luck!

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Melinda:
It all depends on what kind of music you are interested in playing. If you are into Hawaiian type music or early county, the 8 string Fender will do you just fine. Jerry Byrd has some excellent material out there for this type of instrument. I'm sure you can order it through Scotty. Heck, a hundred years ago, I learned to play on a 6 string lap guitar. The ability to read music is definitely an advantage, no matter what anybody says! The ones that don't think it's necessary are the ones that can't do it.

Erv

[This message was edited by Erv Niehaus on 12 February 2003 at 07:11 AM.]

Melinda Dauley · From: Tacoma, Washington, USA

Hey Chas-
I don't think more strings means an "upgrade". It's like saying more strings on a bass is better, IMO.
Melinda

Melinda Dauley · From: Tacoma, Washington, USA

P.S. I have heard of Dan Tyack. I with i could have gotten lessons from Don Pawlak, steel player from The Souvenirs and The Swains, both local WA bands.
Dood plays with his teeth. Austix, Tx got lucky cos they got him.
Thanks for all the info.

Chris Forbes · From: Beltsville, MD, USA

Read music? what's that? Although I suspect I would be a better musician if I had ever taken lessons, I had to do it the hard way. Like a moron, the only lessons I took were for the steel, I learned the other six instruments by ear. I suspect reading music can only help a person be a better musician so good for you Melinda!!

John Steele · From: Renfrew, Ontario, Canada

quote:

Buddy Emmons once said that he could read a little music, but not enough to hurt his playin. I believe everything he says.

No offense, but I think this is incorrect. I've seen this quote bandied around, attributed to everyone from Chet Atkins (who could read just fine) to Buddy Emmons. Originally offered tongue-in-cheek, it has been extensively used by others as an excuse to avoid learning anything.
On the contrary, Buddy has shared with us right here on the forum his stories of his disasterous (from his point of view) Steel Guitar Jazz session, where he found himself in over his head, unable to communicate with the other session musicians because of his lack of reading and theory skills.
He also shared with us the story of arriving on the California scene hoping to do studio and soundtrack work, only to find his lack of reading skills were a major setback.
If you're going to "believe everything he says", that's fine... at least find out what he did and didn't say.
And, Martin, that's not a swipe at you, just an attempt to clarify an issue I feel is very important.
-John

chas smith · From: Encino, CA, USA

quote:
Hey Chas- I don't think more strings means an "upgrade". It's like saying more strings on a bass is better, IMO.
Melinda

Hey Melinda-I'm not going to argue with your opinion, I didn't intend upgrade to be a qualitative judgment, but rather a reason to feel less ripped off because you can't return the dumb thing--Chas

Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Melinda:
I'd keep your Fender 8 stringer, put a C6th tuning on it and you will be busy the rest of your life just trying to get a small percentage of the music that's in that fantastic guitar! I've been playing for 50 years and I'm still working on it. But then, maybe you're not a left-handed Norwegian!

Uff-Da!

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · From: Southaven, MS, USA

Melinda - You should not be dissapointed with the new book; you should be able to get at least something from it. If you READ viola, you're already in the driver's seat. All you have to do is learn the new clef (treble) and how your tuning relates to the clef. The none-readers who think that they know all the music should come to realize that the other 95% is on paper! If you are really serious, you should learn to Sight Read--Reading music and sight reading are 2 different animals! About 2 years ago, I completed a lengthy manuscript which I intended to publish and called it SIGHT READING FOR STEEL GUITARISTS. I have since abandon the idea of having it published. However, I think it's a super fast method of learning to sight read: First, I have saccadic eye-training exercises which is a must for fast reading; the text also has 3 CD's which teach the steel guitarist to LOOK at the music while listening to the CD exercises played on piano. Soon perfect intonation is achieved; this would not have been possible years ago because turntables/cassettes did not utilize CONSTANT SPEED motors. With a CD, perfect intonation is possible while looking at the music--and NOT at the left hand. Some of my friends have told me that I should publish my book and change the title to something like, A SIGHT READING METHOD FOR ALL INSTRUMENTS. I'm undecided right now. As a violist, I'm sure you are aware of the plethora of music available in the library, especially at a University library if you live near one. Good Luck...and Best to you. HJ

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

John Steele is correct. I have in front of me a book that shows Jerry Bryd saying the same thing. And also I have heard it attributed to many.

Regardless of who said it, in ALL likelyhood it was a play on words rather than offering any wisdom.

Tis true, there are players who can "hear" AND "play" music on various intruments that will knock your socks off.And they do not know a note of music.

One of the most classic cases I have EVER seen is Atlanta's greatest steel guitar player, Mac Atcheson. He is incredibly good. Maybe second ONLY to Buddy. Yet he does not read nor know a note of theory. But he can make ya cry when he plays. And he can play anything. His timing and exectuion is flawless.

I believe Buddy did this two for a long time. So did Jerry Byrd. And of course many others. But I believe in ALL cases, learning to read music AND learning music (theory) can make ANY player better.

And in the case of a Mac Atcheson or Buddy Emmons, Our dear Lord ONLY knows how much better an already great player would have been had they had the opporutunity and did in fact learn it.

Excluding faith, knowledge has NO equal in any genre'

God bless Mac And Buddy and all of you,

carl

Jody Carver · From: KNIGHT OF FENDER TWEED

There is a distinct advantage on learning to
play on a non pedal guitar rather than a pedal guitar. I know pedal players who started on pedal guitar and they had wished they started on a non pedal guitar. But pedal guitars were the most popular when they
started out and the instrument had come into its own by that time by standardizing the pedal guitar as we know it today.

There are many substitutions you can learn on a non pedal guitar,I refer to chord structure etc.The shortcomings on a non pedal
guitar will prove to be an advantage when you
switch over to the pedal guitar.

The disadvantages of a non pedal guitar will help you realize the advantage of a pedal guitar.

I have had the theory that knowing the disadvantages of the non pedal guitar will give you the advantage over those who started
from scratch on a pedal guitar.

This is only my opinion and it worked for me
but then again, when I started there were no
pedal guitars. Learn the instrument and dont jump the gun, keep the Fender,it will prove to be your most valuable asset while you do the preliminary's and then go to the pedal guitar.

You will turn the disadvantage of a non pedal
guitar into an advantage when you learn the roots of the instrument.

Melinda Dauley · From: Tacoma, Washington, USA

Thank you to all of you for all your wonderful advice. I am going to stick with the Fender for awhile.
I have listened to people play Fenders before and I really like what I heard. Maybe it's just me, but it doesn't have to be fancy to be cool. Old country works for me.
I would like to have a Sho-Bud someday soon but I don't have the retarded 1600.00 to slap down right now, for one, because prices are out of control. I play in a band as a rythym guitarist and lead vocalist and 1600.00 means a new Gibson Hummingbird. Or if my Gretsch takes a dump, or...or..or... That would be a priority. I hope you understand. I'm not trying to piss anyone off here. Everyone has their opinions. It's like Fender or Gretsch 6 string guitars. I would argue to the death for Gretsch even though I know Fenders have less problems and Gretsch has always been inferior.

Dr. Hugh- I am interested in sight reading for steel too. I do a good job reading for viola and violin. So I know the treble clef already...because of violin. Steel uses the G clef right? I'm assuming so because guitar and piano use it. I just have to figure out where the notes go when I'm playing. Such as: what place on the steel makes that note on the page. And I think then off I would go.
Jodi-I have played lap steel for a little while. I don't know if you read but I am a proud owner of a Fender 1000, S-8. I like lap steel...I just like what I heard out of thie Fender.
I really appreciate being here with you all. You are all so knowledgable and kind (well, most).
It's come to what I thought before: reading music does make for a better steel player.
Melinda Dauley

Mark van Allen · From: Watkinsville, Ga. USA

Hi, Melinda! And welcome to the forum (and the wealth of opinions herein!) As for advice about "having to have a 10 string, four knees, etc" it's really dependant on what kind of sound you want to get. There are endless examples of stellar non pedal 8 string playing (Joaquin Murphy and Vance Terry particularly come to mind) that is as fresh and modern as anything being played today. By all means find a copy (I got mine on ebay) of Sneaky Pete Kleinow's "The Legend and The Legacy"- absolutely primo playing with phrasing, taste, tone- on your exact setup. Pete makes an 8 string Fender a thing of majesty. On the other hand, if you really crave (and some don't!) the sounds of modern country radio, or classic 70's mainstream steel, you'll pretty much need those other two strings and some knees for the rest. I play all kinds of music from straight country and bluegrass to alt. rock and blues, and I've found the modern 10 string tunings to be of great help in getting more access to more ideas. I also collect and adore vintage 8 string pedal-less guitars, and I truly wish I had a parallel life to spend just investigating those. I can't even believe there's any question that learning to read standard notation, or any other musical or theoretical study, would most certainly help one's growth and exploration on ANY instrument. I think a lot of the conflict about that is a result of A) laziness on the part of non readers and B) the fact that so many classically trained readers fear improvisation like the plague. In many hundreds of recording sessions I have yet to see a musical score for steel music (the left coast players have run into that more often), but that's no excuse for not using a valid tool. Reading for steel opens a LOT of doors, an example being the fantastic Jamey Abersold series of jazz courses, a lifetime of study right there. I have a number of Django Reinhardt, Charlie Parker, and Charlie Christian transcriptions that make for some of the coolest solo ideas over country music- and just figuring out where to play them on the neck leads to finding all kinds of great patterns and positions. From that perspective, take a look at your "stupid Mel Bay book" and figure out where the notes in the ten string tuning can be found on YOUR tuning- I don't know what you're using, please feel free to email me with your tuning and I can give you some ideas from there. If you figure out where the "missing" upper string notes can be found on your tuning, you can find all kinds of uses for the tab you have. You may not be able to use the exact same phrasing, but the notes are there somewhere, and tracking them down will teach you all kinds of stuff. Best of luck!

Bill Ford · From: Graniteville SC Aiken

Hi Melinda,
Welcome to the forum,first off,I would invest in a chromatic tuner,a decent one can be purchased for around $50 or less.When you read a A# or whatever note you are looking for,you can find it easier with the tuner than counting strings/frets.A# is at the 6th fret on the E/1st string E tuning,or 4th on standard E9 10 string,but>>>>where are the other A# notes on the other strings?( you probably have a tuner already)

Chas.,Carl,Mike P.
Please correct me if this is a bad/wrong direction,sugestion I don't mean to confuse because this instrument is confusing enough in itself,if you heard me play you would understand confusion>>>>>>>

Bill

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Bill Ford

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · From: Southaven, MS, USA

Melinda - Makes no difference whether you have 10 strings or 100 strings! So long as you know the notes on each string and each of the 12 frets and can transfer this info to the treble clef. As your benchmark: the typical E string on top corresponds to E----the first line on the trebleclef (G clef if you wish) (middle C being just below the staff). With this, you should be able to take off and go. On my D-10, the range is so broad (Ab on top to B below the bass clef) that I have to read both treble and bass clefs, but I have grown accustomed to reading piano music anyway. You might start out just reading single notes just as you do on viola, then get into diads and triads, etc. on down the road. www.steelguitarbyhughjeffreys.com Best, Hugh

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Interesting topic Melinda, glad you brought it up and as you can see we have several views with common ground.

It's obvious that if you have some knowledge from another Instrument it can and should be applied .

I see the biggest issue that many new players experience is that they don't understand or have never learned the I,IV,V music principle which is common R+R, Blues and Country, Fundemental if you will. The Pedal Steel the way I viewed it and approached it was a very simpley layed out I,IV , V Instrument. I transfered my guitar knowledge over to the steel based on that concept. Even today as I pick up new phrases or chord structures for either Instrument I try to apply them on each Instrument.

Simple Example: I talked to a new player on the phone not long ago and he knew that the AB pedals took him from the G to the C chord on the 3rd fret..but didn't quite understand why it was termed the 4th..( IV Chord)This is a major hurdle to cross.

I did have a formal background in sight reading but quite honestly I never played a venue where it was required. So, sight read today..NOT..at least not at the moment..give me a few days and we'll see...

The one thing that I did find during my early years when I was also teaching beginners ( for gas and Beer money ) was that new students for the guitar had a major hurdle to cross. Just like the Steel , except the Steel has additional hurdles to cross which are visual, hands, legs, knees feet, fingers etc...all at the same time before you even begin to play anything..It's a workout for sure.

Students had to learn the mechanics and how to sight read ( which is a new language ) before they could actually play any music or a song at all. So I stopped teaching how to sight read and taught some songs that they could play simply and "Today" and then went backwards and showed them what they were actually doing. Those that were serious about becoming a player stayed with it , those that weren't moved on. One of my earliest Student in the Ct area was Tim DeHuff. Tim worked real hard and became a very well know and respected Jazz player with CD's and all that. He really became a great player and years later I took a few chord structure lessons from him .

This little teaching format is one that I picked up from the great Musician Guitar player Link Chamberlain in the New York, Ct area. Link, if anyone had ever know him, was a premier player and teacher throughout that region until his passing in the mid 80's.

He used to say, lets jam and play some music, and for about two hours we would just chunk out the stuff untill he heard something that I was doing that deserved conversation, The he would go back and break it out and show me how I already knew this stuff but didn't know I knew it ! He was like a Dr. of guitar playing.

Any muscial background is very important but not mandatory. If you know a local player it would be excellent to make a contact and take a few lessons to get started.

I would also fully agree that a 10 string Steel with 3+4 would be the right choice to start on. Heck just go get a D10 with 8+8, you won't regret it !

So after all this I would say that my previous background on 6 String was monumental for me. But the sight reading was not.

Good luck and glad you are here..

tp

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 13 February 2003 at 06:01 AM.]

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