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Topic: XLR Versus Micing amp |
jolynyk
From:
Prince Albert Sask. Canada
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Posted 9 Mar 2004 5:44 am |
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I have a Nashville 1000, & I used to go to the mixing board from the XLR output on the back of the amp to the board .. this one time (the board has a phantom mic switch), & I guess it was turned on when the guy plugged my amp in, anyway my amp blew, & I was told it blew because that switch was on when my amp cable was plugged in.. I had Peavey Repair it & it works fine now... However since that time I only go to the mixer by placing a Shure SM57 mic in front of the amp... This guy tells me that's not a good idea, because you don't get the true tone that is produced by the amp, & is suggesting I run an XLR cable from the back of my amp to the mixer.... I'm rather leery of doing this again... Or should I go from pre-amp out on the back of the amp to the mixer...??
Any suggestions or comparisons regarding tones , volumes etc. for live playing, recording, etc.... thanks for your input & suggestions... John |
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John Floyd
From:
R.I.P.
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Posted 9 Mar 2004 8:56 am
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| That Shouldn't have happened even with Phantom power on from the board unless there was a miswire in the cable he was using or in the amp itself. Most boards I've used only have one master phantom power switch on it and its hard to believe that you couldn't use phantom power for your condenser mic's when you have a peavey amp plugged in. The folks at peavey are more heads up than this, So I would have to conclude that it was a miswired cable to the board. |
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Will Holtz
From:
San Francisco, California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2004 9:59 am
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Most small soundboards (16 or fewer channels) have a single phantom power switch. Larger ones have an individual switch for every channel.
The sound engineer who requested that you use the XLR output instead of the SM-57 was correct that you'll get a different tone. This is due to the characteristics of microphones. No microphone has a perfectly flat frequency response. For many applications this is desired, such as a kick drum mic that has peaks near 100 Hz and 3kHz. The SM-57 frequency response is far from flat. It has a substantial peak near 5kHz. This is useful for bringing out the crack of a snare drum, the high end of a guitar, or increasing intelligibility of vocals. The placement of the microphone relative to the cone of the speaker will also change the tone when you are using a microphone with a cardiod pickup pattern. Most microphones used in live sound reinforcement have cardiod pickup patterns. The two main variables here are distance from the speaker, and the angle between the microphone and the axis of the speaker. As the microphone gets closer to the speaker you'll get a boost in the low frequencies. This is called the "proximity effect". Moving the microphone from being aligned with the speaker axis to an off axis angle will reduce the the high frequencies. This is due to the spatial frequency response of speakers, which are directional at high frequencies, but get more omni-directional at lower frequencies.
All that being said, going out of the XLR also may change your tone relative to what you hear coming out of your amp, as the speaker can add a little coloration to your tone. -Will
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jolynyk
From:
Prince Albert Sask. Canada
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Posted 9 Mar 2004 11:29 am
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Ok, So given the choice of the 3 , which would you rather use to get the same sound or close to what is coming out of the speaker,
1. XLR out
2. Pre Amp out
3. Mic in front
I realize the sound man can do anything he wants, but assuming that all controls on the mixer were set flat or zeros..
I don't know why my amp blew, it could have been coincidence when it plugged in, this particular board only has one phantom switch , not individual ones for each channel... made by Yorkville sound in Canada.. Thanks for your input... John |
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Will Holtz
From:
San Francisco, California, USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2004 5:55 pm
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I don't know the details of the Nashville 1000, so I'm not sure what part of the circuit generates the XLR out signal. I'm guessing its after the built in EQ/reverb.
For live work, the XLR output will get you the closest sound to that coming out of the speaker. For studio work, a good microphone carefully placed may perform better than the XLR output.
Your amp should not have blown up from using the XLR output, even if phatom power was applied. I realize that probably isn't too comforting. If you would like to play it safe, you could put a direct injection (DI) box between your XLR output and the soundboard. Unfortunately most DI boxes only have 1/4" inputs. A few like the BSS AR-133, which I've had good experiences with, have an XLR input. This will insert a transformer between you and the soundboard, which will protect your amp from DC currents originating at the soundboard. However, you should be aware that some low end DI boxes are transformerless, and may not help this problem. -William
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 9 Mar 2004 6:29 pm
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I have never heard a guitar or steel guitar amp that sounded better using the DI output compared to miking the speaker. Amps are designed with the voicing of the speaker taken into consideration. By going DI, you eliminate the "air" factor and the speaker voicing factor and a general warmth and realism. I can't think of any great steel tones that weren't from miking a speaker. The SM57 is still THE studio and live standard mic for guitar (and steel) amps.
Brad Sarno
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 9 Mar 2004 8:47 pm
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Since this is geared more toward live sound, I think most would be hard pressed to hear the difference by the time it is processed and coming out of the mains/monitors. I have personally a/b'ed mic vs. preamp out with several respected house sound engineers that either preferred the DI or thought the difference was so slight that they would go by whatever I wanted to send them.
In the studio, I do prefer micing the speakers, though I have achieved some pretty awesome direct sounds, enough that I have had to check my notes to make sure. I am currently working on a song that I used Sonny Garrish on, and I have one track of his cabinet with a mic and the other track off his direct. You might be pretty surprized to hear them side-by-side. But the bottom line is always what ever works for you... |
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jolynyk
From:
Prince Albert Sask. Canada
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Posted 9 Mar 2004 10:02 pm
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| OK we did some jamming this evening, I run my steel in the first plug in, & my fiddle in the 2nd one.. tried playing with the SM57 in front of the amp... had a nice tone for steel, & for fiddle I cut back the highs, & brought the mids up a bit... Fiddle tone was real good... I then unplugged the cord from the mic & put it into XLR out in back of amp, & played the fiddle with the same settings I used before with the mic, & same settings on the mixer.. YIKES, the fiddle was real shrill almost to the point of sounding tinny, & the volume dropped off noticeably..& my steel tone was unacceptable.. Went back to micing & everything was great again... this amp , after having problems before , was sent in to Peavey for repairs.. So I'm assuming it should be OK.. Everything else works fine... I didn't try going out of the pre amp to the mixer yet... Would a DI box have helped in this situation?? My fiddle is a solid body Yamaha, & actually sounds real nice with the mic in front... |
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Will Holtz
From:
San Francisco, California, USA
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Posted 10 Mar 2004 4:28 pm
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| A DI would not help that. It will give you very close to the same thing that you got going straight off the XLR output. If the SM-57 sounded good, then stick with it. -Will |
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seldomfed
From:
Colorado
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Posted 11 Mar 2004 10:06 am
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The rule of thumb I use is never turn on phantom until you have made all your connections. As stated above - xlr out on your amp and phantom should co-exist fine. But even in the studio I don't plug in mics to a channel with phantom on.
I do this with my Nashville 112 and it's great. Also, recoding direct from the 112 to the recorder is a fine sound for many things. If you like the high-mid boost of an SM-57 that's cool, perhaps track both and blend.
------------------
Chris Kennison
Ft. Collins, Colorado
"There is no spoon"
www.book-em-danno.com
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jolynyk
From:
Prince Albert Sask. Canada
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Posted 11 Mar 2004 2:15 pm
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| Ok thanks, I will try it both ways... & see which is best for recording.. |
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Kevin Macneil Brown
From:
Montpelier, VT, USA
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Posted 11 Mar 2004 5:55 pm
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A sound guy who our band uses in "bigger" venues throws this little mic on my amp, and, judging from the board recordings, it
really seems to capture the sound coming out of my amp. Turns out it's a Sennheiser E609, about a hundred bucks. Granted, I play 6 string lap, and the mic may not be up to the extended range of pedal steel. But it's designed to fit flush against a guitar amp, and may be worth a try. |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 11 Mar 2004 6:04 pm
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| That is a great mic for the money--I own a couple... |
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jolynyk
From:
Prince Albert Sask. Canada
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Posted 12 Mar 2004 5:03 pm
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| John how is this mic for steel??? does it reproduce good?? |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 12 Mar 2004 5:30 pm
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| Actually, I have never tried it on the steel, though I would reach for it before a 57... I'll try and give it a shot sometime. I mainly use Royer ribbon mics, Sennheiser 421's or Sony C37a tube mics on steel. |
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