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Topic: Question about "MIDI" |
Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 11:42 am |
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Well guys, usually I'm on here answering questions. But, this is a field I have no experience in. Another thread on "midi music" has made me do some searching around on the web for midi files. And my question is this..."Why do they all sound so bad?"
I guess I shouldn't say bad...maybe a better choice of adjectives would be "simple", "elementary", or "cheap-sounding". It's just that every site I go to seems to sound the same. You know, like they were made in 5 minutes with a $59 Cascio "mini-keyboard". I'm not trying to be "smart", or sarcastic here, either. I honestly want to know if this is the best midi can be? Or is it that the people who are making these available aren't spending a lot of time to refine and fill out the selections with additional harmonies, and some different "voices" once in awhile?
For the most part, they really aren't very impressive at all. Is this the best computers can do?[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 20 January 2001 at 11:47 AM.] |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 12:33 pm
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| Are you using a $59 Cascio "mini-keyboard" to play the MIDI files? |
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Marco Schouten
From:
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 1:40 pm
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Donny,
it depends on the device you use to play the files, and the arrangements, which can be from simple to complex.
I use a Soundblaster AWE 64 gold in my computer to play back midi files, and indeed some sound very simple, while other files sound like a live orchestra.
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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 1:52 pm
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No Ernest, I'm listening using my computer. I have an excellent Altec-Lansing (subwoofer equipped) computer sound system. It's a 60 watt system that'll shake the rafters. The trouble's not on my end because CD's, MP3's, Real Audio, and other stuff sounds great.
What I'm talking about is the musical arrangements, and not the fidelity. They just all sound something like an arcade video game. I've yet to find any that sound like a live band, much less an orchestra, but I'll keep looking, Marco!
[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 20 January 2001 at 01:56 PM.] |
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mtulbert
From:
Plano, Texas 75023
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 2:07 pm
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Donny,
Here is the answer ( I hope) to your question.
The reason the midi files sound bad and the remainder of the files that you play through the card sound good is because you are using two different areas of the card.
The midi files actually use a "sound chip" which takes the midi information and converts it to various sounds. On most sound cards, the sound chip leaves alot to be desired and the files as a result sound really lousy.
The other files are being processed through your DAC converter on the card and all that does is to convert digital information to audio. Those files which are much bigger than midi files by the way are all the actual sound tracks etc combined in a final mix. You are just converting that to audio from the digital realm.
My suggestion is to find a better source to play back your midi files. If you have BIAB there is a midi synthesizer called a Roland sound canvas that has excellent sound. You might even find a demo version of this on the net somewhere. You will hear a huge improvement when you play back your midi files. Your playback system is very good, it is just the sound chip synthesizing the midi data that is not good.
Hope this helps.
Mark T.
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Marco Schouten
From:
Amsterdam, The Netherlands
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 2:42 pm
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Donny,
I mailed you some midi files hich are better arranged (I think). If these sound ok then at least there's nothing wrong with your hardware. It's true that a lot of midi-files are very simple. I followed the links in this thread, and found some interesting files.http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum1/HTML/012526.html.
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Steelin' Greetings
Marco Schouten
Sho-Bud Pro III Custom
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 3:45 pm
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Midi is to music what the keyboard is to a big old pipe organ--just a bunch of on/off switches. Hook the keyboard/air generator output to a melodica and that's what you get. Hook it up to the big pipes and you got a cathedral full of sound. If I put the midi output into some outboard sound gear (like a fine digital piano I have) it would sound great. Or at least the piano parts. Unfortunately my Gateway has a melodica on board.
But you are also right--a lot of the arrangements are pretty basic at best.
I'm with you, Donny--unless I hear better midi programs and until I get better gear, midi is a pretty weak music experience for me. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 5:32 pm
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Thanks guys! First, to Marco...he sent me some pieces with good arrangements, a lot better than the "run of the mill stuff" that I find in most websites. And thanks to Mark and Jon, too...good info! While my sound card is not the best (An Ensonique Deluxe) it does have some nice features, such as reverb, chorus, and micro-delay. But, I suspect that a better sound card might improve some of the synthesized sounds. This "computer synthesized" stuff is pretty new to me...much harder to learn than pedal steel!  [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 20 January 2001 at 05:36 PM.] |
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Ken Lang
From:
Simi Valley, Ca
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 5:54 pm
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Donny: I think the answers here are right on. To take it one step furthur, MIDI, which stands for (musicial instrument digital interface) is just a language to represent notes and their attributes in the digital form. The score can be as complicated as one would like or can play. The beauty of midi is it can be edited with ease. Another advantage is you can assign whatever instrument you would like to play it. Don't like piano? Click on organ or banjo or trumpet or strings or a voice pad or tron blast or whatever your sound supports.
The output sound is entirely dependent on what you have that will play it. Cheap sound card=cheap sound. Big bucks sound modules=big time sound. |
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Bill Llewellyn
From:
San Jose, CA
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 7:07 pm
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Donny,
You've gotten some pretty good answers here. My take, in a nutshell, is this:
1. The musical arrangement of a song, MIDI or otherwise, can make it or break it. There are a lot of good MIDI files out there, and a lot of pedestrian ones.
2. Your sound card in your PC is what contains the actual sounds such as the drums, bass, piano, guitar, etc., which you hear. The MIDI file just tells your sound card when to play which notes of each sound, when, how loud, and how long to hold each note. The sounds in your sound card are called "wave tables" or "samples". Good sounding samples help make for a good sounding song. Cheap samples hurt a lot. (My Mac has what are called Quicktime Instruments as samples sounds, with which I am not at all happy.) I completely agree that the external Roland Sound Canvas MIDI module sounds pretty dawgonne good.
I compose MIDI music as an avocation of mine. Here are some snippets of 100% MIDI music I made using external MIDI equipment (rather than internal sound card sound cards or software) for the sounds. These are audio files, not MIDI files, so they should sound the same on any computer anywhere, and are not dependent on the "samples" in your sound card.
www.upbeats.com/UpMusic/artists/Llewellyn/Think/samples/Pluck.mp3
and....
www.upbeats.com/UpMusic/artists/Llewellyn/Think/samples/Whimsy.mp3
Enjoy!
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Bill (steel player impersonator) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My online music | Forum birthdays[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 20 January 2001 at 07:10 PM.] |
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David Pennybaker
From:
Conroe, TX USA
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Posted 20 Jan 2001 8:38 pm
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Sounds great, Bill.
Can you post the .mid version of these, too?
I'd like to compare what's in my soundcard to your external MIDI components.
My current MIDI (besides computers) is the Kurzweil PC88MX and the Korg T3.
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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons
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Dan Dowd
From:
Paducah, KY, R.I.P.
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Posted 21 Jan 2001 5:18 am
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| I have a Roland Sound Canvas SC88 and have used it for several years now (previously used a SC55 for many years). However I just purchased a new computer with a Sound Blaster Live Value sound card and I cant tell a lot of differance in the quality of the sound and its a lot cheaper than the SC88. The only differance is the SC88 can play 32 channels. The Sound Blaster has 16. Its great for just tracks to play along with. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 21 Jan 2001 8:58 am
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| Great sounding stuff, Bill! I just knew that there was stuff available out there that didn't sound like an "electronic accordion". |
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Bobby Lee
From:
Cloverdale, California, USA
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Posted 21 Jan 2001 9:02 am
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Digital audio can sound great on a PC but it has little to do with how MIDI will sound. The quality of MIDI sound is largely determined by the MIDI synth. Many PCs simply do not have a good synth installed.
Digital audio (MP3's, CDs, etc.) is a recording of actual sound. MIDI is more like sheet music. It contains a description of the notes, and says what instrument to play them on. If the only sound source you have is the equivalent of a dime store Casio keyboard, that's the best sound you'll get out of a MIDI file.
Most PCs come with a very cheap Yamaha FM Synthesis MIDI chip installed. The Yamaha generates the instrument sounds with computer code written 2 decades ago. It doesn't use recorded samples of real instruments, digital modeling, or any other modern method for generating instrument sounds.
The other problem is simplistic MIDI files. The best way to create a MIDI file is with a good, velocity sensitive MIDI controller keyboard. To do this, you also have to be a good player!
Most MIDI files on the Internet are either played by a bad musician on poor equipment or generated by point and click on a computer. The latter method is the worst, because there is very strict timing and no dynamics. That's what gives it that "music box" blandness, which in turn has given MIDI itself a bad reputation among consumers.
MIDI stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface. It doesn't specify the quality of the instruments or the quality of the music. It is simply a way to represent music in a digital form without recording actual sounds. It's sheet music for computers.
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 Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session S-12 (E9), Speedy West D-10 (E9, D6),
Sierra 8 Laptop (D13), Fender Stringmaster D-8 (E13, A6) |
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Bill Llewellyn
From:
San Jose, CA
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Posted 21 Jan 2001 10:13 am
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Nice expository, b0b! I also like to think of MIDI as a piano scroll for a computer (remember player pianos?). More banter about midi here: www.rahul.net/thinker/midi_explanation.html .
Staying with b0b's analogy for a minute:
1. Good sheet music + good MIDI sounds = good music.
2. Poor sheet music + good MIDI sounds = not good music.
3. Good aheet music + poor MIDI sounds = not good music.
4. Poor sheet music + poor MIDI sounds = not good music.
Notice that only 1 of the above 4 cases resulted in good music, which is why so many MIDI file songs out there are uninspiring.
The sound snippets (which are MP3, not MIDI) I gave above are digital audio files which are recordings of homemade MIDI files which were played back through 100% external MIDI sound sources instead of the PC (in my case, Mac) built-in kind. They demonstrate the kind of sounds one can get from reasonably good quality MIDI samples, in case your PC/Mac's built-in sounds leave you wanting (like mine do). The sysnthesis/wave table capabilities of sound cards are getting better all the time, though, so the need for such extrernal gear is fading.
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Bill (steel player impersonator) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My online music | Forum birthdays[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 21 January 2001 at 02:00 PM.] |
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Rick Schmidt
From:
Prescott AZ, USA
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Posted 23 Jan 2001 8:07 pm
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I have an external Roland Sound Canvas which sounds pretty darn good for what it is...But there is such a thing as a "Virtual Sound Canvas" program ( a "sound font" by Roland)that you can use to make even the most rinky dink sound card sound much better. You might be even able to download it from the web. Check PG music.
One thing I've noticed is that most of the best midi files on the internet are either Jazz or Classical. Why? Because for the most part, those guys are the best keyboard players!  |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 24 Jan 2001 8:02 am
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| Quote: |
| ...cheap Yamaha FM Synthesis MIDI chip installed. The Yamaha generates the instrument sounds with computer code written 2 decades ago |
Careful, b0b, there may be some DX-7 fans lurking..... Remember back in the 80's when every cut on every record seemed to have that goofy DX-7 electric piano?
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bterry.home.netcom.com
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 24 Jan 2001 10:54 am
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| The cheap Yamaha FM synthesis chip in many computers is not like a DX-7. It's like the much cheaper Yamaha FB-01. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 24 Jan 2001 11:40 am
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Earnest, right, if I remember correctly, the DX-7 had six 'operators' and the cheaper FM synths, DX-21, TX-81Z(?) had four. I would expect the sound card FM is a close brother to those.
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bterry.home.netcom.com
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Bill Llewellyn
From:
San Jose, CA
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Posted 24 Jan 2001 9:09 pm
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I really like my Dx7. It is the opening instrument in the "Pluck" MP3 snippet I linked earlier in this thread (see above). And the cheezy Rhodes immitation came in so many programming variations, I found a couple Rhodes patches I though were pretty good and tweaked them up. I like 'em! (And I even owned both Worlitzer and Rhodes e-pianos before I got the Dx7.)
Gads, this Dx7 is getting old. Like my Minimoog.
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Bill (steel player impersonator) | MSA Classic U12 | Email | My online music | Forum birthdays |
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