Country Music Evolution

KEVIN OWENS · From: OLD HICKORY TN USA

(This is not meant to slam or insult anyone)After reading and talking to people about country music, I hear alot of people say "I didn't like country until I heard the newer stuff". Well most of these people don't like any country music made before the early 90's. The test is: find someone who says they like contry music and then play some Ray Price, Conway, Faron Young, Ernest Tubb, Leona Willims,Gene Watson,Dale Watson,etc........99% of the time those people will run to get away from the music. The reason: the country music of today has almost no ties to the country music made before the late 80's-early 90's. You can call them country and put them on the Opry but that is not what makes a country artist or a country song.
I know things have to change but after they change so much it becomes something totally different. It's like taking a ball bat and whittling it down to a toothpick and still calling it a ball bat, it's still made out of wood but that's the only common tie.
Why are there big name pop/rock players and producers making country music in Nashville? They're not. They're making pop\rock records and the big money men at the labels are calling it country. No disrespect to the players, they're making money playing music(more power to them). It's the record company owners who think only about the bottom dollar and not the music. Trying to sell more records to more people = watering down the sound so it will be more acceptable to more people.(water is good but you can also drown in it, like country music did).
Well country evolved and the music payed the price.

I know there many who disagree and that's fine. I have a strong passion for the real stuff and I hate to see it all be destroyed for the love of money.

fire away
Kevin

Mark Frederick · From: The Great State of Arizona

Kevin:

I didn't see so much as one syllable that I could fire at. Well put.

Mark

Too country????????????

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

Franklin · Posted 23 Sep 2000 5:59 pm

Kevin,
This post of mine is actually a little off your topic point and is not an argument to your thoughts, but it may go towards the pending questions everyone seems to be asking, "Why has everything changed so drastically from the older stuff? and will it ever come back to tradition?"

It would be nice if it comes back. I like playing that music but I also love playing the new music. The answer is I don't know if it will ever come back in a big way again. From my studies I will say that so far no period of country music has recycled itself for very long.

According to my studies of the history based on what I have witnessed and read will be the remaining part of the post and it deals with WHY things musically changed. First look at the past to understand the future which goes to "why" everyone that is successful changes Country Music and the musicianship within it.

Mother Maybelle and Jimmie Rodgers probably felt sad when Bob Wills brought bebop elements and drums into the music and was accepted big time. Wouldn't you like to know their thoughts when the Hawaiin guitar was added? And when Hank sang lyric content about love gone wrong instead of about trains and farm life and got people on the dance floor for the first time, I can almost hear them saying "now they have gone too far."
And what about using an orchestra behind Patsy and twangy pedal steel guitars and Haggard's twangy chicken pickin' sound and what about Marty Robbins introducing distorted guitars with "Don't Worry 'Bout Me"
These artists evolved the music as far away from the The Carter Family and Jimmie Rodgers sound as todays music is from George and Tammy's. When you study the music from the beginning there is a definite pattern of drastic change throughout Country Music's history? Yet all of it was called "Country".

I really don't understand the logic used with the name argument. Which generation of singers owns the right to the name "Country Music?" And does the word "Traditional" apply to the beginning or middle period of a musical forms development?

What this forum refers to as "Traditional" Country is actually the middle of this centuries Country Music (60's and earliest 70's period) so what can we call Mother Maybelle's music. Musicologists list her as one of the founders of Country Music. Is it (BT) Before Traditional?

The historical fact shows that each generation of Country singers from its conception sang lyrics and played rhythms and used instrumentation that was current with their decade of American life which is what they do today. They performed in multiple styles created by utilizing influences outside of Country music at their present time which changed the music from what they grew up listening to, which is also what Nashville has done. This is the formula they all used and is still used today which is why all of the music past and present falls under the umbrella of the "Country" label.

Listen to The Smashing Pumpkins and then listen to the most pop sounding country act you can find and you will hear a significant difference in lyrics, rhythm, musical styles, and sounds which is why the New Country is still called "Country music" and Pop is still Pop. As far as we have leaned towards the pop music of past years we are still behind the current sounds of this generations Pop artists.

Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 23 September 2000 at 07:30 PM.]

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

Well put, Paul.

KEVIN OWENS · From: OLD HICKORY TN USA

David
The market for pure country music never really was that big as far as unit sales. That's way I think the record companys don't get behind those artist like they do for others. Not a lot of people like pure country music, and that's fine but why should an american art form be lost because of corporations and money. If people don't know it's there they can't buy it. VH-1 does great documentaries about older R&R performers and the history of that music. What does country have? (besides Eddie Stubbs at WSM). I just think the industry has turned it's back on the music that helped create it.
Your wife is right, the rock is as bad as any other type of music.
Paul
It seems like there was a tie that bound the music of the 20's to the music thru the late 80's. The artist still had great respect for the ones that came before them. The Vern Gosdin recordings that were topping the charts in the late 80's, still had a close tie to the music even as far back as the Carter Family. I just don't see the link in the new music and the revenence toward the older artist that are still with us.

Kevin

[This message was edited by KEVIN OWENS on 23 September 2000 at 10:11 PM.]

Kenny Dail · From: Kinston, N.C. R.I.P.

Music must and will change just as long as technology keeps changing. I personally grew up with with Country Music from the mid and late 30s up to the present level we have today. What most people refer to as "traditonal" has actually become "culture" and so the cycling will continue infinately. Our personal preferences all deals with the music we grew up with and can relate to and I think eventually, New Country will become "traditional" and as time goes on it will become "Culture". Just some thoughts from and "old Geezer" who has more memories than most of us on the forum. The point I am trying tomake here is, my "Traditional" country is different than the person that is 20 or more years younger than me. We have cultural differences.

BTW, Paul, you mentioned Jimmy Rodgers and what his thoughts were when the Hawaiian guitar was added, he must have liked the sound of the hawaiian influence on country music since he was one of the first "Country" acts, if not the first, to use a Resophonic on his recordings. I believe Cliff Carlisle (Bill's brother) was the Steel (or Hawaiian) player on Jimmy's records.

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kd...and the beat goes on...

erik · Posted 23 Sep 2000 11:21 pm

Generally speaking, it's the beat and the bassline that tells me whether a newer song is tied to what i call "traditional" Country. The song may sound more modern or slide into a rock beat at the end, but if it has those basic elements i consider it Country.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

The traditional period means the period before you got married.

Jude James Shiels · From: near Dublin, Ireland

I agree with what Kevin is saying,

My read of the situation is that for whatever reason you like character and individuality have been forsaken in country music for safe marketable product. My ears or eyes cannot differientiate between most new country acts, I think if you had a identity line up for the cuplrit from the Music on Murder Row song you'd have 10 identical looking guys in cowboy hats with big teeth who you really couldn't believe that they would harm as much as a fly.

I do hear great singers, great players, good songs extremely well packaged, but that's about it. I find it hard to hear passion or sincerity break out of that even if it's there somewhere. For me that is the major difference between today and the previous generations.

Franklin · Posted 24 Sep 2000 3:50 am

Kenny,

Thanks for the correction, my point is "everything added to Country along its path of successful singers changed the music forever." I agree with you about "Tradition". It always has to do with ones youthful influences. Todays kids are experiencing their traditions in life.

Kevin,

The link to todays country is the formula which is still there. Country music whether anyone likes every step of its evolution has always been promoted and has evolved into todays music by sticking to that formula. There is Gerge Jones, Strait and Alan Jackson still on major labels.

The art form of the music you love will never be lost as long as artists are archived and the record companies are doing that because the Nashville record community wants it remembered. It will have to go underground for new songs and growth as did Bluegrass, Classical, Big Band, Blues, etc.. IMO that's a good thing because if it does not have to be mass marketed the music can remain, for the most part, frozen in time from outside influences.

To understand "Why" it is so different today look at everything surrounding us. Technology accelerated the world and Country Music reflects that. Farmers have access to cell phones, cable and satelite TV, Email, and the internet and so does the most obscure lifestyles so their lives and their childrens lives have been linked to the world of knowledge and influences for over a decade now. Pre-schoolers now learn how to use computers. It's a fast world so Country along with ALL forms of music will continue to change faster and more drastic than in the earlier periods of its evolution. People get bored faster today with everything they like than ever before and that ignites the need for constant change when it comes to entertainment. "Seen that, heard that, done that," is the attitude of modern American life.

The political climate and social morals have also changed extremely over the past decade and todays music in ALL fields reflects that. This life of ours today is technological and is changing at an amazingly fast rate of growth and there is no stopping it. Morals seem to have gone underground. Elvis could not be shown from the waist down on TV, the Beatles caused a national panic because parents did not want their children influenced. Now our kids if left alone can watch R rated movies and sex on NYPD Blue if a vcr is not owned. How can a child be raised with the same morality options we had for exposure without isolation. We can not escape outside influences personally and neither can Country Musicians.

The country of the past is so pleasant because it reminds us of a much simpler
time. Just ask those online to give up all their forum and computer time for a simpler way of communicating with each other about the love of anything and watch everyone pounce on you. Its hard to take back changes in ones lifestyle. Country Music today reflects all the changes we have ALL given ourselves and our children over the past decades.
Paul

[This message was edited by Franklin on 24 September 2000 at 04:56 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 24 September 2000 at 07:46 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 24 September 2000 at 07:53 AM.]

[This message was edited by Franklin on 25 September 2000 at 05:10 AM.]

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

John Lacey · From: Black Diamond, Alberta, Canada

Paul, I agree with most of your comments about the evolution of this music form. I might add that as the average forum age is around 50, this is an era when most people start to get quite nostalgic, looking more at the past with rose-colored glasses, than any other point in their lives. It's quite natural then for us to view music from that era (ie. our youth) as a simpler, more romantic time.

Steve Feldman · From: Central MA USA

I'll throw in one more point, which, I suppose, supports Paul's view. The music of the Carter family and (to some extent) Jimmie Rogers as well as many of the other 'earliest' country acts, were largely informed by the early fiddle music of the Southern Appalachians, which took on less of a 'hillbilly' demeanor as bands began to record in the early 20's. To me, THESE are the 'roots' of country music. Ever remember Bill and Earl Bolick (the Blue Sky Boys - harmonies so tight that they 'hurt'), Gid Tanner and the Skillet Lickers (featuring notable fiddlers Clayton McMichen and Lowe Stokes and pioneer [yes, pioneer] guitarist Riley Pucket), Texas fiddler 'Uncle' Eck Roberston, Kentucky fiddler Doc Roberts, ....I could go on and on and on. But to me, THESE are the people who spawned much of what we now recognize (or RECOGNIZED...) as country music. These folks all presaged even the earliest Opry performers.

Heck, even Bluegrass was the 'invention' of a gentleman by the name of Bill Monroe in ~1935, in an attempt to gentrify the 'hick sounds' of early recorded string band music and appeal to a wider, more 'sophisticated' audience.

All this stuff is part of the history of country music, and I believe is all to often overlooked. So, I guess change is inevitable, but it's important to remember - and draw from - one's roots. My $0.02.

Mike Sweeney · From: Nashville,TN,USA

Kevin And Paul, I believe I agree with both of you to a certain extent. Change is the only constant and we must learn to live with those changes or be left behind. I also love the older music as much as anyone does but my father who was a musician loved the music of his youth too such as Roy Acuff, The Carters,etc. But he had an open mind to new things and he taught me that you can learn something from everyone you hear so just listen and try to appriciate what they're doing. Although that doesn't mean he or I liked everything we ever heard but he did and I do give things a chance. I just wish the label heads wouldn't say things like Tammy Cochran is too country. There is no such thing. Mike

Ed Naylor · From: portsmouth.ohio usa, R.I.P.

Having been around a few years I naturally look at things differently than the younger generation. While I was in Nashville a song was pitched to me titled"Did you forget the MELODY or did I forget the SONG??" . At any rate I feel there is still a market for some songs with a MELODY. Ed Naylor Steel Guitar Works.

KEVIN OWENS · From: OLD HICKORY TN USA

David
Points were well taken up until "the Dixie Chicks-but their not traditional bluegrass".
The Dixie Chicks have nothing to do with bluegrass music. A banjo don't make it bluegrass.
As far as Brad Paisley he is a very average singer. I heard him on WSM on a live in studio performance doing "She Thinks I Still Care" and didn't sing the correct melody of the song. I guess he thought his was better.
Singer now days are so use to singing song with no melody or very litte melody. Then they sing one with a great melody and it's like being in another world. They go from coloring outside the lines to trying to stay inside the lines, something they are'nt used to doing. Maybe if better songs were written the singers could have a reason to sing better.

Kevin

[This message was edited by KEVIN OWENS on 24 September 2000 at 11:57 AM.]

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

David Pennybaker · From: Conroe, TX USA

I would add the following concerning vocal quality of country singers: I tend to "cut them a little slack", primarily because of my experience with The Wilkinsons over the last 2 years.

I've seen them perform in person 23 times now. Normally with the band (with a few songs during the "acoustic set"), but a few times it was all acoustic, too.

They do an accapella rendition of "When I Need You" during their soundcheck, and often during their encore.

These people can SING and harmonize.

However, there have been times when they weren't together (harmonically) at all. From what I've been able to tell, it's always been because of their inability to hear each other and/or the music well due to bad mixing. This has been based on my own observation, as well as brief discussions with them, Steve's wife, and their sound guy / road manager.

Steve has even made one comment (during a performance) about how "bad" the performances had been (by them and others) on a recent (at that time) awards show. He blamed it on the monitor system.

Having a little experience with karaoke myself (just at home), I know what they're talking about. Without the proper mix of your own voice and the background music (and voices of others), it's very tough to sound good.

So, when I hear somebody performing and they don't quite sound on-key, I now often attribute it to that (rightly or wrongly).

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The Unofficial Photographer of The Wilkinsons

Janice Brooks · From: Pleasant Gap Pa

quote:
I don't think country music's EVER been the home of the "elite" vocalists of the world. That's not to degrade country music in any way at all. It's one of the things that makes it appealing, I think. It makes it more believable that the "Average Joe" is actually singing a song about something he's lived.

Very well put David

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Janice "Busgal" Brooks
ICQ 44729047

Ken Lang · From: Simi Valley, Ca

I think most people are influnced by the music they hear when they are young newbe's to the world in their teens and early 20's.

For myself, and I'm sure for most, the parents music was not happening. That would be 30's and 40's music for me. I appreciate it now, very much, but it still isn't my music.

In country music, there is nothing like a driving, kick butt, walking bass country shuffle to put a big smile on this old face.
In rock and roll, Pretty Woman by Roy Orbison, and the Beatles music define my later memories of youth.

It's unfair to expect those of later times to hold our same values. They deserve their own memories. The only modicum of victory for us is picturing our aged kids trying to rock their rocking chairs to U2 and Metallica. Or worse, rappin seniors at the Moose Lodge.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Now what kind of person would want to see Elvis's waste on TV?

Ray Jenkins · From: Gold Canyon Az. U.S.A.

Earnest is that waste or waist?

Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

C Dixon · From: Duluth, GA USA

Well, let's see.

I once heard a very great pastor once say in a pulpit that the Supreme Court of the United States could NOT define pornography, yet EVERYBODY knows what it is!

Elvis started Rock and Roll. Other titles followed, not necessarily in this order. Rockabilly, Rock, Acid Rock, Punk Rock. Heavy Metal. Rap, Ska etc, etc.

And all the "rockers" and young people who instinctively hate real country music knows exactly the difference between the above.

With the exception of the powers to be forcing the demise of the term "hillbilly" and substituting "country" to appease the "city slicker", everything that has "evolved since" has been called country in general.

But it goes deeper than this. Paul's posts makes a lot of very poignant points. And no thinking person can deny mostly what he says. However having said that, there is something that is being over looked.

And that is this. It is only recently that soo many of us take exception to the term "country" being applied to a whole heap of songs that have no semblance of being country. And, IMHO opinion they never will be.

Very true, there is NO similarity between the styles of Roy Acuff and the styles of Ray Price or Webb Pierce versus Jim Reeves or Enerst Tubb versus Eddy Arnold. or Bill Monroe versus Connie Smith. Or Kitty Wells versus Patsy Cline.

Yet in ALL of these cases those of us who call these singers country have a common bond between us. I span almost 7 decades!! And it is only NOW that I abhor calling a lot of music being recorded "country" when it is clearly NOT country.

And it is NOT a question of whether I like or dislike it or whether I want to see the steel go into many other genre's of music. Or whether or not PF is the greatest recorded steel guitarist of all time. Which he clearly IS!!

The problem is there are many types of apples. But they are still apples. No one I know of has ever called a banana an apple.

So my point is the name. NOTHING else. Just the name. Some of it is very good. Some of it I like. But most of what is heard on "country" stations around the nation is NOT country music.

IF it were, the many of us who complain about it would not be complaining! We loved Roy Acuff. And we loved Ray Price. We loved Bill Monore and we loved George Jones. We called them BOTH country. And they were. All except when Ray (and others) turned his back on his country brethren and tried to appeal to the "country" haters. Those songs were NOT country and everybody agreed!! And some of it was out of this world. "For The Good Times" is one my all time favorite songs. But it was NOT country. It was Pop! "Crazy" was not country. It was Pop. That is why the Poppers love it to this day!

So again, I have NO problem with the music that is being played if I like it. And some of it I do. I have NO problem in seeing the steel become accepted in most other forms of music (I honestly do not feel it ever will be to any extint, however). My only problem is calling so many songs being recorded today "country" when there is not a hint of country in them.

I guarantee you that the powers to be knows it "aint" country. And it is on purpose. Yes, IMHO, they are achieving exactly what they set out to do. TNN is a prime example. They hated country music. Always have. BUT they have a real monetary problem. They simply do not want to lose the dollars from the "country folk".

So, they package things as country. Hoping that it will appease the folks who buy true country. And of course no problem with the rockers buying it. And unfortunately it worked. Sadly I must admit.

How many people say today, "I love country music". and when you mention George Jones or Ray price or Alan Jackson, they retort, "Oh I hate that stuff, I am talking about Garth Brooks and Shania and Martina and Faith, et-al".

Why folks? I ask you why? And it is universal. So did the powers achieve their objective? I think so!!

No way the reverse could have ever been pulled off. In other words, if the powers to be had hated Rock (generic term), and wanted to turn it into real country and packaged it as Rock and Roll, the country haters would be up in arms and burning down radio stations all over the US. And making frizzbies out of CD's and slinging them towards passing automobiles!!

The truth is folks, most people do NOT like true country music. They just don't. So they package Rock and Roll and Pop as country to keep the dollars coming in from the country fans. But their love is Rock and Roll an Pop. Always has been. Always will be. And that is what they play. That is what they perform, and that is what they record.

But the worst part is when they try to sell me on the fact that it is "country" music. When we BOTH know it is NOT.

God bless all of you always,

carl

[This message was edited by C Dixon on 25 September 2000 at 09:47 AM.]

Ray Jenkins · From: Gold Canyon Az. U.S.A.

Carl calm down,I'll send you one of my pills if you need it.You go big guy.

Ray

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Steeling is still legal in Arizona

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