E9/B6 Universal Question: F#-G raise on string 1

[Bill McCloskey]

I just got my Mullen RP Universal. It is absolutely beautiful. Below is the current copedent. My LKR raises the first string from F# - G and lowers the 6th string from G# - F#. I can think of no use for this change. Can you enlighten me?

[Ian Rae]

1. the 6th string lower is standard, introduce by Buddy Emmons as soon as all-pull guitars came along. It enables you to drop the third of the chord with pedals up like you can with them down. Split with the B pedal it gives a useful G for minor chords

2. In the AB position we are used to lowering 2 to D to give a useful scale note (4). Raising 1 to G gives a useful flat 7.

[Dennis Detweiler]

You can also resolve back to 1 chord from a pedals up 4 chord using the Eb lever and G# to F# lever to get back to 1 chord.

[Bobby D. Jones]

On the Mullen factory tuning for E9th/B6th, On RKL lever. They list the 1st string raises from F# to G#, And the 6th string lowers from G# to F#.

Those pulls sounds interesting. Engage the knee lever and pick 1st and 6th string, Release the knee lever and the strings would pass each other and resolve to same notes.

I bought a Mullen S12, That is suppose to have that knee lever setup on it. I want to remove and clean the changer, And move pedals and knee levers to Day setup/Jeff Newman 12U copendent. Too match my present S12's. I think I will try that tuning on LKR. Which I could fold up for B6th playing.

[Bill McCloskey]

That is interesting. Where did you find that? Seems like I have the change wrong.

[Andrew Frost]

string 1 raising to G is a nice change.
great for the uses mentioned above, but also makes a min11 chord combined with B pedal. With the F# (string 7) in the mix it becomes a beautiful E min9/11 at 12th/open and if your string 6 splits to G there would be a cool semitone tension between the F# and G.

1 . G
2. x
3. A
4. E
5. B
6. G (split)
7. F#
8. E

You could also think of it as a G maj voicing with added 6, 9 and maj7. A great "3 frets back" sub.

[Bobby D. Jones]

When I bought a used Pre Royal Precision S12. It was in the case along with a Jeff Newman 12uni course. At the top it says Mullen S12 E9th/B6th Tuning Chart.

[Dave Mudgett]

... My LKR raises the first string from F# - G and lowers the 6th string from G# - F#. I can think of no use for this change. Can you enlighten me?

I saw your other thread on this same general topic, here - viewtopic.php?p=3254835#p3254835 - and specifically addressed the question of uses for 6th string G#=>F# lower. It is one of my top 3 lever changes. As Ian states, Buddy Emmons incorporated this change and used it to great effect. For my usage, it's important that it be on the opposite knee from the E lower. More on that thread link.

BTW - that 6th string full-tone lower was in use at least as early as the early-mid 70s. You can hear it distinctly in Buddy Cage's playing with NRPS from that period. His setup is documented in Winnie Winston's book, discussed in this thread - viewtopic.php?t=383459

[Bill McCloskey]

I spent a few hours with the GREAT Dave Grafe working on the copedent for the E9/B6 universal. He'll be doing the work on it. He is such a treasure trove of info to bounce ideas off so I told him I was open to suggestions. We came up (well, HE came up and I approved) some great changes to the Universal tuning, which I've been studying for the last few hours (using John Sohn's Steel Sidekick app, which is invaluable) and comparing it to my G2 D10 copedents. I lose a tiny bit on the C6 side (basically the Fmaj7 on the 9th string becomes a Fdom7 on the 11th string) but what I gain makes it infinitely worth it, and I can pick up the maj7 somewhere else. (BTW, if you need any kind of work done I can't recommend Dave enough. He is simply great to work with and does fantastic work)

Here it is: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/a2rbner2 ... rpylc&dl=0

[Dave Mudgett]

With a couple of very slight variations, that is the exact setup on my Zum 12-string universal. What I'm missing is the strings 9&8 C#/F# changes on the C-pedal, and I raise the 9th string B to D instead of lower 8th string E to D, on RKR. I have the boo-wah on pedal 4 as you have it, even though I have it on pedal 8 on my D10s. In addition, I have 8 pedals, so I have the Franklin change on pedal 1.

I know that Paul Franklin and others advocate not putting string 1/2 F#=>G#/D#=>E on the same lever as the string 6 G#=>F# lower (LKR in this case). And if I had an extra lever, I'd add the 7th string F#=>G# and move the string 1/2 raises to that lever. But I only have 5 levers, so I do it the way you have it also.

That is, to me, a very good setup with which you should be able to do a lot.

[Bill McCloskey]

I know that Paul Franklin and others advocate not putting string 1/2 F#=>G#/D#=>E on the same lever as the string 6 G#=>F# lower

I know. For Paul, it is because he feels it interferes with the franklin pedal and recommends raising 7 from F# to G# instead. Travis Toy also recommends raising the 7 rather than lowering the 6. but as Dave Grafe pointed out to me, if you squeeze that lever with the E's lowered you get a really nice 5 chord in the pedals up 1 chord position and I really use that change a lot on my 10 string E9th neck.

[Andrew Frost]

The missing D string on E9/B6 creates an interesting set of choices.
Maybe its a chart typo but I see you have opted to lower string 8 on both pedal 6 and RR...
That would definitely work, but I think if you already have the 'standard' pedal 6 change on the floor, you might want to have the E9 style string 9 B-D raise on RR instead of duplicating pedal 6.

[Bill McCloskey]

I'll run it by Dave. Thanks Andrew

[Dave Mudgett]

Yeah, the duplicated P6 change is one reason. For me, there's another reason to prefer raising 9 from B to D instead of lowering 8 from E to D. That is that it allows me to more closely replicate the standard E9 9th string D=>C# drop, which I use a quite a bit with AB pedals down to do a smooth low-string D (4 of A chord) =>C# (3 of A chord) - i.e., sus4=>1 - chord resolution. On E9, I just hit the RKR to get that resolution. On universal, I let off RKR to get it. So it's slightly different mechanically, but musically the same.

Of course, you can get the same exact notes by picking successively string 8 then string 9 (AB is down). But you hear two separate picked notes instead of smoothly bending into it. But of course, as long as you're not at the nut, you could slant the bar back to get it smoothly.

[Bill McCloskey]

Well, that opened a can of worms.

Turns out I can't do a double lower on the 8th string so I had to choose between RKR or P6.

RKR has to stay on the 8th string because that gives me the dom7 on strings 11, 10, 9, 8. So that meant pedal 6 had to go. But then I realized, pedal 6 is completely redundant. By holding RKR, I can get all the pedal 6 changes. RKL and pedal 5 and 7 give me all the normal Pedal 5 and 7 changes and holding RKR and 5 and RKR and 7 gives me all the usual 5+6 changes and 6+7 changes. So I decided to move pedal 7 down so it is next to pedal 5 and that freed up pedal 7. Then I had a brilliant idea. I've always been torn between lowering 6 string or raising 7 string. Now I can have both. Here is the new changes. Still have to run these by Dave to see if there is any issue, but this should solve my problems.

[Bill McCloskey]

Well, Dave Grafe and I had a long discussion today. Great thing about Dave is he doesn't just agree with your ideas, he challenges you to do better and he has been incredibly helpful in figuring out the evolution of this copedent. I think we have come up with something really great this time.

Problem with the original idea was that we had 3 lowers on the 8th string and the Mullen RP only has 2 lowers. So it was lose the 6th pedal or lose the Dom7 on RKR. Neither was ideal but Dave discovered there was a lock lever to keep it in B6 mode which I was unaware of. So it completely made sense to keep the 6th pedal intact and lose the Dom7. However it turned out, I still have a great dom7 with B pedal and E's lowered. AND I realize I had the same great dom7 just holding the 5th pedal in E9th mode just on strings 12, 11, 10, 9 instead of 11, 10, 9,8.

At first thought, I decided to lose the 8 pedal boowa (which was on my 4th pedal) since I hardly use it and put the Franklin pedal on pedal 4 where the boowa was. But then Dave came up with the brilliant idea of locking down the 2nd string half lower with a 12th string B->G#. Adding a 9th string B->C raise on RKR gave me the boowa on RKR when RKL is locked into B6 mode and a nice dom7/6 using the half step on the second string. So here is (hopefully) the final iteration of this copedent. And something for others in the future to check out as they are putting together their own universal tunings:

[Andrew Frost]

Interesting.
Bill, I'd just like to offer some insight on the traditional 9th string (D string) of E9. Please take my words with a grain of salt, as they are by no means a criticism.

String 9D is far more than just a dom7 on the E tuning.
One could get by and even play a lot of nice stuff without it, but it is pretty crucial to the tuning.
The E9/B6 approach indeed loses the D string to accomodate the uninterrupted intervals of B6.
However it is such a crucial part of the tuning that most E9/B6 set ups will invariably have that 'missing' D on a lever. The most common solution is raising 9B to D so that the E9 voicings from strings 1-9 can be played the same as on 'standard' E9.

That D string ( or B->D lever ) is a b7 of E, yes, but it is also a sort of underscore of the whole tuning that works in beautiful combination with all 3 ABC pedals as well as many other E9 changes.

I've peripherally caught glimpse of your posts and I see you've put time into other tunings, so the subtleties and nuances of E9 may not be immediately apparent to you at this stage, and this is understandable.

Again, please take or leave my comments, but I would highly suggest you have some way of getting the equivalent of string 9 somewhere on your set up as you learn the ins and outs and the character of this tuning, even if it means losing something else that is perhaps non-essential.

[Bill McCloskey]

I appreciate the post Andrew. I am not getting rid of my G2 D10 or my Sho-Bud D10, so no worries, I won't be relying completely on the Universal.

[Bill McCloskey]

BTW, examining what is lost by not having the D string. I actually don't see too much. I used the 9th string a lot to play a G Maj7 on the 5th fret with pedals down.
But I can get the Gmaj7 on the 3rd fret with RKL and pedal 6. I can get the seventh other places. I'm really having trouble finding anything i can't duplicate with different pedals on the universal.

[Raybob Bowman]

That F# to G raise is same change as on Buddy Emmon's C6 standard P8 raising D to D#

[Dennis Detweiler]

There are b7 and 9th's duplicated all over the E9th neck. Which fret and which pedal/knee combinations makes the neck movements flow around the melody more smoothly. Comparing the B6th tuning to the E9th: You can play an E9th chord at the 5th fret with A/B down and Eb lever, but you can't add the 11th string unless you drop down two more frets (3rd fret) and use your 5th pedal with the Eb lever. Then you can add the bottom two strings to your chord to make it complete. This is just a basic example of the Universal E9/B6 tuning. So, between the 7th 5th and 3rd frets you can string together (pockets) and pedal/knee combinations for chords or single notes. There's just so much more there without having to depend on bar movement to get to the next chord change. Then, get into the wider grips. There are also a lot of low end harmony notes available with the 10 string (G#) with wider grips while playing a melodic slow song on E9th which gives the Uni a distinct character. I lower my 6th and 10th strings (G#'s) to G (half stop) and F#) with a knee to make it flow with the melody. I love it. Lots of experimenting.

[Dennis Detweiler]

Concerning the above U-12 chart with LKV (all Bb's) and RKL (all Eb's)? How can you play these knees with pedals 4&5 without conflict? I see the Boo-wah on the RKR, but you'd have to play it with the RKL at the same time? Looks like it's a tuning beyond standard E9/B6?

[Bill McCloskey]

RKL has a lever lock, Dennis. Pedal 4 is a franklin pedal. It is going to be interesting to experiment once I get it. I see your issue with pedal 5 and RKL. I'll have to look more into that.

[Richard Sinkler]

Dave M. said

BTW - that 6th string full-tone lower was in use at least as early as the early-mid 70s.

I had 3 knee levers added to my first guitar, a ZB S10, and Greg Lasser in San Francisco put the 6th string lower on my guitar in probably 1972, maybe even 1971.

[Dennis Detweiler]

Ah! Ok Bill, lever lock. To me, the lever lock defeats the purpose of the Uni being able to move through both tunings spontaniously. I see it's use if a player is wanting to separate the E9th from the B6th and play as a double neck. It's kind of like the d-10 change-over. My playing has morphed into a style that moves in and out of both tunings. A lever lock would lock me out! I look at the Universal as one tuning. Similarly, the D13 as one tuning.