Emmons pushpull detuning in a weird way

Nick Krol · From: Rhode Island, USA

I have this problem with both my pushpulls and I'm not sure what is causing it. It's most prominent on the thicker strings, for my example I'll use the low C on the c6 neck.

I tune the low C. I raise the C to a D. I tune that note at the keyhead. I relase the pedal, I tune the open C at the changer hole. I can now hit pedal 5 all day, the D note and the C note stay in tune perfectly.

Now I hit pedal 8, drops to A. Release pedal 8. The C note is now SHARP. Changer is clean and lubed. Fingers stop solid against the screws.

Any ideas?
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1971 push pull, 1974 push pull, 1972 Twin Reverb

Jon Light · From: Saugerties, NY

I am not strong enough on the subject to say much. But....it is a well known thing.
It is often called 'string hysteresis' although I've seen questions as to whether the term is properly applied here. Lowered strings return sharp. You could spend time doing a forum search on that term.

What you can do to try to alleviate it is be sure that the roller nut rolls freely and make sre that the string is wound on the tuning post to eliminate as much lateral angle as possible. Straight lines from post to changer are very optimal.

Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

My 83 PP does the same thing. I think the steep break angle at the nut contributes to the problem.

I've just learned to live with it. I try to tune the low C a bit flat after pushing and releasing the raise, and a bit sharp after pushing and releasing the lower. Basically splitting the difference. Of course the roller nut needs to be well lubed, but that alone won't eliminate the problem.

I'm not much of a C6th player so take my advice with a grain of salt.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing.

Nick Krol · From: Rhode Island, USA

That's some good info guys, thanks. I looked into "string hysteresis" and seems like it has to do with the string slipping slightly against the changer during the lower and then hanging up instead of slipping back when it is released.

I have some graphite lube I use to keep strings from sticking in the nuts of my guitars, I'll try to use some of that
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1971 push pull, 1974 push pull, 1972 Twin Reverb

Dave Magram · From: San Jose, California, USA

Patrick Timmins · From: Seattle

I recently had a customer whom I did what I call "spa day" for his guitar about 6 months ago with a similar complaint. Also a push pull. He told me his guitar used to do the same thing, but didn't do it after I did the "spa day" which includes: ultrasonic cleaning of roller nuts, a new polished stainless roller nut shaft, general clean, lube, adjust pulls/action, new strings, general maintenance and setup... It was the lower strings he was complaining about and he had just changed the strings. I sat there and stretched the strings out very liberally and added a drop of my lube to the roller nuts just in case. problem gone. When I service a guitar, I like to keep it for 3 days and I stretch the strings over the 3 days till it is stable. I don't want customers to bring home a guitar that hasn't settled in.
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Microphones, Recording, and lots of pedal steel guitars!

Henry Matthews · From: Texarkana, Ark USA

Don’t know where the word, hysteresis came from for steel guitar. Probably same place copedent came from. All guitars come back with C a little sharp, some more than others. It’s where the string gathers on top of changer when lowered and doesn’t slip back when returned. I call it string gather.
You are correct Nick. A drop of oil on the string sometimes helps.
I don’t like those long words and refuse to use them. Besides that, I can’t spell them.😊
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Henry Matthews

D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes.

Eric Philippsen · From: Central Florida USA

It might not completely eliminate the C6th 10th string ‘s drop & return problem but it might make it better than it currently is. That is, try and keep the angle the 10th breaks off the roller nut straight. Put another way, try to keep the string from pulling its roller to one side which would increase the friction between the roller and its nut groove. The less friction the less possibility of binding. At the tuner post wind the string around it so that it moves towsrd the center and away from the tuner body and key head.

Last, the next time you change strings remove the nut roller and disassemble it. Note the rollers’ order before removing them. Clean everything and use 0000 steel wool on the roller shaft. Reinstall and oil. I don’t know how many steels I’ve gotten where it’s obvious the nut roller has gunked up and never been cleaned.

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