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Topic: U12: IS there a standard? |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 5:40 am |
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This whole topic confuses me.
IS there, in fact, a 'standard' U12 (E9/B6), or is this just one of many?
I'm about to acquire a U12 and I intend to try it thoroughly 'as it is' (even without my beloved D string at #9!) and see if anything about it appeals to me. I'm even going to tolerate the Emmons pedals (at least for now), so you can see what a leap this is.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 6:03 am
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That looks pretty standard for Newman Universal E9th/B6th.
I like the E lower on RKL. Just what I am used to.
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Dave O'Brien
From:
Florida and New Jersey
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 6:30 am U-12
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Hi Roger, I'd suggest you set it up as close to your D-10 tuning as possible. I still play D-10 or S-10 also so I use the Sierra copedant on my U-12. This mostly applies to the placement of the E -Eb .I see no need for it on the RKR
_________________
Dave O'Brien
Emmons D-10, CMI D-10, Fender Deluxe Reverb, PV 112, Fender Pro Reverb
www.myspace.com/daveobrienband |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 6:39 am
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Thanks, Guys.
Dave - hi!
There's no rush and I will tinker for a while just as it is. I foresee, however, returning to 'Day' pedals.
I will also consider going the 'D13th' route (again).
I suppose my question really is:
I'm used to raising-and-lowering the Es on my left leg.
Is there anything vital that is lost by NOT splitting those pulls between two knees?
The big 'elephant in the room' is the missing 9th (D); I should, while I have the chance, see if I can get along with that. If I can't, then that 12th string will be an E, 11th: G#, 10th: B, 9th: D , etc......
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 7:03 am
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| As long as you are comfortable reaching pedals 4 and upward with your E lower lever engaged, it doesn't matter where you place the lever. But note that the entire concept of the B6 side of the E9/B6 Universal is holding the E lower while you pedal what would be the C6 pedals. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 7:24 am
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Thanks, Jon - it sounds worth a try, at least. Thanks for explaining that priority; makes sense.
This is 7+5; ideally, I'd like a sixth KL but I'm not making too much of an investment until I know whether I like the guitar enough.
Idle hands, that's my trouble.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 7:29 am
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Just to muddy the waters more, I recently started on a version of David Wright's Bb6 tuning and absolutely love it. You engage the E lever to raise 4 and 8 for E9th mode.
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Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Jim Pitman
From:
Waterbury Ctr. VT 05677 USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 7:42 am
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Roger, I have that Neuman style universal setup. I often use that raise of a step and half up to D to get the 7th on the bottom. - alot. I have it on RKR.
An advantage is the D won't get in the way when you don't want it. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 8:10 am
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Bill:
That certainly muddies the waters!  I think it's too radical a change for this old brain...
Jim:
I'm going to see how I get on but I have to say, it's rare the 9th ever gets in my way. I spend much of my time using it as the root-note, either as D or lowered to C#.
Who knows? I may become a convert.
Thanks, guys.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 11:31 am
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_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 12:46 pm
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It's worth pausing to consider what is meant by "universal". To some it may suggest a wonder machine that can do anything.
I see it simply as a way of combining two necks into one by sharing strings between the two tunings to achieve a more compact instrument. The eight pedals do the same as on your D10, and likewise the levers, although you may not be able to take them all with you and you'll need an extra one to fill in the missing D string.
So no, there is no standard E9/B6 tuning, but that's only because the E9 and B6 it's built from aren't totally standard either.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Mike DiAlesandro
From:
Kent, Ohio
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 1:48 pm
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In regards to the 9th string missing, I found an interesting change while I was working on/ playing this guitar.
When raising string 9 B to a D, I noticed that by releasing this lever w/ th e A pedal pressed, you get a nice D-C# lower. And with the A + B pedals pressed you get a pleasant ASus4 chord.
Not a Uni player myself, I have dabbled with a few over the years, and found lowering the E’s on RKR is easier for me to operate the B6th pedals than either LKR, or RKL. Just an observation.
Anyway, this guitar sings, I think the cast endplates contribute to it’s timbre.
Enjoy Roger, and Happy Birthday! |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 2:44 pm
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I'd think if you're used to Day then playing universal would be just that much more logical in its potential set up.
The C#s on the A pedal lend themselves better to any of the B6 pedals that you're likely to have beside the 'E9' pedals..
I don't play 12 string but I have my E tunings configured like the top 10 of E9/B6, including the B-D pull on string 9 which I use all the time.
A lot of things, like that 5-1 sus resolution that Mike mentioned just can't be done on standard E9. The grip is different though.
Last edited by Andrew Frost on 18 Mar 2024 6:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Johnny Cox
From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 5:23 pm
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Jeff Newman used Day setup with E raises and lowers on the right knee. He only lowered the top B string on the vertical and didn't have a LKR.
Not many folks know this, but Jeff didn't originate the E9/B6th tuning. It was first created by none other than Sonny Bennett of MSA in the 70s. It was an alternative to Maurice Anderson's Bb6th. Jeff took it an ran with it when he was playing MSA guitars.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 18 Mar 2024 5:28 pm
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| Quote: |
That certainly muddies the waters! Smile I think it's too radical a change for this old brain...
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Not too radical. If you go to the second fret, the strings from bottom to top are C F A C E G A C E G A E . Look familiar? Engage the RKL and the first fret contains: B E F# G# B E F# G# D# basically E9th. I'm completely addicted to it so far.
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/@steelguitarunionhall |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 12:25 am
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What Mike and Andrew say. Even though you don't have an actual D string, you still have the same D to C# change.
And the Day setup is better as the A pedal is useful in B6.
RKR is best for E lowers as it creates space for the left leg to roam.
But it's up to the individual, just as it is with a D10
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 4:05 am Re: U12: IS there a standard?
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
This whole topic confuses me.
IS there, in fact, a 'standard' U12 (E9/B6), or is this just one of many?
I'm about to acquire a U12 and I intend to try it thoroughly 'as it is' (even without my beloved D string at #9!) and see if anything about it appeals to me. I'm even going to tolerate the Emmons pedals (at least for now), so you can see what a leap this is.
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I think that's about as close to a standard as you will get.
It's a fairly basic E9th with a fairly basic B6th until one realizes that are changes from both "tunings" which carry over into the other one... must notoriously "P6" puts you back into E7/E9th and the B-pedal is a common C6/B6th add on change. The B-to-Bb works both "sides" (aka C-to-B lever on C6th)... eventually, it should become ONE BIG approach.
Joe Wright, Jeff Newman and evidently Maurice Anderson all played it as ONE tuning.
There was a short time when some Nashville C6th player moved "P8" (aka Boowhah) over in lieu of the original "P4", to be next to the original "P5" (aka. "The Two-Below") because of the II7-V7 change from one to the other pedal. Jeff advocated that rokade. And it's not something that was exclusive to Universal.
Maurice didn't like like it and after some back and forth, I personally prefer to see P8 next to P7 too... not just for the 11th chord but for quartal chords (in conjuncture to PF's 6th string whole step lower).
I don't know why anybody would have the E's-lower pushing out to the right. I much preferred to pull in towards the left. Worthwhile mentioning that having the E's lowered on the RK's, it would safe a combination to also raise them to F on the same knee in the opposite way. Combinations are as valuable a an added lever or pedal.
I played Universal for a Decade. I was comfortable on it and thought back then I would never play something else. I dropped E9th "recently" altogether because I don't need to generate "income" from playing and much prefer to expand on the Jazz end. I must say, that in a transition phase, I sought ot eliminate redundancies which did not "buy" me much... like the P6 vs. disengaging the E's lower. Musically, it both does the same; P6 pretty much overrides the E'-lower. I think this is one of the reasons why Maurice kept a Bb6th "Uni" which was heavier equipped on the B6th side and somewhat "stripped" to the Eb9th. But having eliminated the "redundancy" and the C-pedal, allowed him to make the same "noises" and add more on the Jazz end.
Yet, he could play a Hardbop/Postbop set and have everybody, even some C6th greats convinced that THIS was his "Bb6th Uni" while he was reeling off extra-terrestrial chords on the green-black "E9th Uni".
Jeff had the smoothest "transition" on his pop tunes, and demonstrated too that he could hold up against any of the D10 players on his 7&5 E9th Uni.
So, you can't go wrong with it.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 4:44 am
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I appreciate all the interesting input. My thanks to all who have shared their thoughts.
I currently have two Emmons D10s: my faithful LG3 (8+9) and an SKH (8+4). This Zum appealed to me and my thoughts are that the SKH - tone-monster though it is - isn't being played, what with my ideal 9+8 setup on the newer LG.
First, to see if I bond with the Zum. I'm interested in playing just as it is (my first 'uni'). I really want to experiment with the 'no D', and find out if I can manage as well as others seem to do without it.
As for 12 string options, Johnny's D13th is a front runner (I may be short of pulls for that), followed closely by Ext E9.
I can read what everyone has written but I won't know until it's in front of me.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 5:36 am
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PS:
Even if it were to be kept in 'Universal mode', I doubt that I'd last long with the Emmons pedals; P1 and 3 would be switched and, similarly, the Es up-and-down.
As I said, I don't care for the idea of splitting the Es between my right and left leg, but Jon has clarified the logic behind that. If it stays a 'Uni', then I'd get used to it. If the guitar gets switched to D13th or E9th Ext., then the Es will be on my left leg.
I wish it had one more KL. I may have to manage without my 7,2,1 raise, a change that I've become very fond of (it's on LKV on my Emmons).
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 7:07 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
PS:
Even if it were to be kept in 'Universal mode', I doubt that I'd last long with the Emmons pedals; P1 and 3 would be switched and, similarly, the Es up-and-down.
As I said, I don't care for the idea of splitting the Es between my right and left leg, but Jon has clarified the logic behind that. If it stays a 'Uni', then I'd get used to it. If the guitar gets switched to D13th or E9th Ext., then the Es will be on my left leg.
I wish it had one more KL. I may have to manage without my 7,2,1 raise, a change that I've become very fond of (it's on LKV on my Emmons). |
My S12 C6th has 6 Pedals and 8 (yes, eight!) knee levers operable out of one playing position.
I must say, that besides my RKV (which would be at odds with players relying a lot on the volume pedal) Having 2 LKV and a LKL front and rear, would seem something I now find surprising players like Maurice, Joe and Jeff did not entertain. It's as playable as any complex "Crawford Cluster" E9th PSG, and most modern PSG will accommodate a 7P 8K even under one neck.
The 13th tuning is an avenue well worth considering, especially for E9th based players which still DO want to delve deep into Jazz. For the lack of educational material, one would have to have a pretty good understanding of at least music so to take their own journey on it.
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 7:23 am
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I have already tried- and enjoyed- D13th.
I shouldn't say this because, as I've stated, Uni is new to me, but JC's tuning appears to me (I played it for three months) to be the best hybrid ever.
I found that C6 (D6) stuff was more easily accessible than the 9th side, but that's on me;: I didn't quite master skipping that extra string at #5.
That's the only reason I'm on the fence with D13th vs Ext E9.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 7:34 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
I have already tried- and enjoyed- D13th.
I shouldn't say this because, as I've stated, Uni is new to me, but JC's tuning appears to me (I played it for three months) to be the best hybrid ever.
I found that C6 (D6) stuff was more easily accessible than the 9th side, but that's on me;: I didn't quite master skipping that extra string at #5.
That's the only reason I'm on the fence with D13th vs Ext E9. |
Then go with that.
I play C6th single notes, all without changes (NO-pedals/levers engaged)... it's more natural to me and I enjoy being able to do all I do on a non-pedal if needed. Pedal changes are natural to me for harmony and chords... D13th can't have different changes than all I have on C6th (of which NONE isA&B-moving sound sound oriented), so I am pretty sure I'd find it all there.
I need to have a shot at one, one day... but IF YOU feel you got around well on it... go for it!
... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 7:44 am
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All single-note stuff is more intuitive with no pedals and all bar movement. E9's not like that - not impossible, of course - but its 2.5-step gap between 4 and 5 encourages pedal-orientated playing.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm looking forward to trying that B, E and G# at 12/11/10, but whether it's enough to keep me interested remains to be seen.
The Zum is 7+5: that's plenty for a solid Ext E9 setup, but a challenge for D13th.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 8:55 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
All single-note stuff is more intuitive with no pedals and all bar movement. E9's not like that - not impossible, of course - but its 2.5-step gap between 4 and 5 encourages pedal-orientated playing.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm looking forward to trying that B, E and G# at 12/11/10, but whether it's enough to keep me interested remains to be seen.
The Zum is 7+5: that's plenty for a solid Ext E9 setup, but a challenge for D13th. |
A Zum is a mechanically good and expandable guitar.
I've recently seen Bruce Zumsteg object to somebody offering 3'rd party made "Zum" parts, so I would assume that he has some stock of parts available.
I am fixin' to put my 6P/8K C6th on an MSA "The Universal, SuperSustain II" S12 and I am not worried about being able to set'er up with all the splits I have. A Zum would have me even more "relaxed" about going to "throw" it in there.
But then, you might be worried about the value of your Zum being original.
I'll be interested about seeing which way you go.
Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________
Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 19 Mar 2024 11:45 am
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To muddy the water more.
When I got a deal on a S12 I could not pass, I gathered 8 different 12 string Ext. E9th, Universal Tunings. Pulled my hair for about a month and chose Jeff Newman' Tuning. It was the only tuning I found with any teaching information.
This is Jeff Newman's Uni tuning. Mr. Newman played Day Setup with RKR Lowering E's RKL Raising E'. And no LKR, He had a long LKV he could play even on the B6 pedals.
There is some of Mr. Newman's copendents on the internet that shows A-B-C pedals. All his teaching videos he is playing C-B-A-4th pedals. |
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