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Topic: Copedent strategies: foot pedal vs knee lever |
Alan Davidson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Feb 2024 9:22 pm |
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I'm pretty new to PSG and am experimenting with my copedent. I'm wondering what the advantages and disadvantages are for assigning any particular bend to a knee lever vs a foot pedal? What factors do you take into consideration (other than things like not being able to play a LKL and LKR at the same time)?
At the moment, I've got a Fender 1000 that has one homemade knee lever (in addition to seven foot pedals). It's very easy to experiment with, which is what I'm doing. Down the road, I plan to order a custom made guitar, but first I want to figure out the pedal/knee lever arrangement and copedent I want. Thanks in advance for any tips.
BTW, I'm sure this question has been asked a bizzillion times and that there is most likely some writeup that someone could just point me to. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 28 Feb 2024 2:12 am
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Simply put, pedals are more positive and faster acting and they can take the strain of more pulls than a lever.
This is why historically the most-used changes have generally been on the floor.
I know that Fenders are a different animal, but there is a good reason why most setups have a lot in common.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Alan Davidson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 29 Feb 2024 5:50 pm
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Thanks Ian, that makes sense. Do you see levers having any advantages at all over pedals?
BTW, I see that you play an Excel. I just ordered one yesterday, an 8-stringer. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 29 Feb 2024 6:00 pm
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Alan, when you're using one foot on the volume pedal, the advantage of one added lever is that it allows you gives you complete control over 3 combined changes. (While you could hit 3 pedals with one foot, you wouldn't have complete control over the combinations of them.) Other than that, a lever is just like a pedal, except slower acting, as Ian said.
I have an 8-string Fender too, and they're a hoot to play! |
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Alan Davidson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 29 Feb 2024 6:57 pm
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| Thanks Donny! Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to play an up lever in combination with a right or left lever on the same knee? Is that a friendly or unfriendly combination? |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 Mar 2024 2:14 am
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I don't find a combination of upwards and sideways very convenient. A vertical lever works best with one or more pedals.
Although an upward lever is normally referred to as a vertical, it's actually horizontal, so not a great piece of terminology 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 1 Mar 2024 5:21 am
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A couple of thoughts --
In my experience, a vertical lever combined with (same knee) left or right moving levers is not impossible but requires some fussy adjustments that may or may not work to make this combination comfortable. There is a large difference between 'working on paper' and being ergonomically practical. Adjustments that make certain movements and combinations possible but do NOT cause inadvertent activation can be too fine a line, sometimes.
I admire people who forge their own concepts and create unique setups. But do not lose sight of the fact that while there are many variations on 'standard' (IOW there is no 'standard'), there are copedents that have evolved over many decades because they work and are improvements and enhancements on what came before.
I suggest that a person should reinvent the wheel if the wheel does not serve their purpose.
But reinventing the wheel because you didn't know that there was already a wheel misses out on lots and lots of great development that other people have already sweated out and shaken down. |
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Andy Henriksen
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2024 6:29 am
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| Alan Davidson wrote: |
| Thanks Donny! Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to play an up lever in combination with a right or left lever on the same knee? Is that a friendly or unfriendly combination? |
I barely use my vertical lever, and I'm mostly a newbie, but I find that combination to be fairly challenging, and not something I use in the real world. I can get both levers where they need to be, but not smoothly or with good timing relative to each other. Even starting with one fully engaged, and then adding the other - it's easy to let the first one slip a bit.
But, like anything with this instrument, I'm sure more focused seat time could make it feel (and sound!) more natural. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 1 Mar 2024 9:26 am
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| If you're new to this the last thing to be fussing with is inventing a new custom copedant. I suggest you begin with the full Emmons, Crawford, Franklin, Day, Newman, or similar established systems and not change anything until you fully understand why they did what they did and the genius and experience behind the solutions they have already worked out. There's more going on than most music theory students ever comprehend, why not take advantage of what has been well sorted since before you began? If then you find a hole that you wish to fill you will be adding to, not distracting from, your musical options. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2024 11:20 am
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I use LKV with LKL a lot; with LKR not so much. Not the most comfortable move, but it creates a musical device that I can’t do without now.
I have 5 pedals and 5 levers on an S12, and it is much more difficult for me to slide my foot left and right and hit a pedal accurately than it is to bump a knee lever over one way or the other.
I agree with everything else that has been said about how to arrange the copedent on your custom guitar. There are several wheels to choose from, but no need to re-invent. It will be drastically different physically from what you are accustomed to on your Fender, so allow for a learning curve in that regard. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 1 Mar 2024 12:35 pm
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| Dave Grafe wrote: |
| If you're new to this the last thing to be fussing with is inventing a new custom copedant. I suggest you begin with the full Emmons, Crawford, Franklin, Day, Newman, or similar established systems and not change anything until you fully understand why they did what they did and the genius and experience behind the solutions they have already worked out. |
What Dave says here is normally pretty good advice, but you’re working with only 8 strings, few pedals, and only 1 lever; and you only have 1 raise/lower capability. That means you’re limited, and must make the most of what you have. Luckily, you have a guitar that allows rapid changes of the copedent, so enjoy experimenting with what you have…for now. In a few months, you can decide what tunings and chord sounds you like, and it would be wise then to gravitate towards one of the standards, like D9th, E9th, C6th, and A6th. As Dave says, a lot of thought went into these, and they can be adapted to your current, somewhat limited guitar. |
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Alan Davidson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2024 5:56 pm
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Thanks for the replies everyone. I really appreciate you all taking the time.
And, I guess I'll explain a bit just to allay some people's fear of me reinventing the wheel. I've played violin for 45 years, but about six months ago I gave it up because of physical issues with my left hand. So, I decided to take up lap steel. After playing around awhile, I came up with a tuning that I really like (G B D F# A C# E (G#); I've got a couple of seven string guitars; I add a G# on top on my eight string). BTW, I learned later that this is a transposed Jerry Byrd tuning. I came up with this tuning while trying to find a tuning that makes it easy to play parallel thirds. Because the intervals are alternating major and minor thirds, playing parallel thirds is a piece of cake. I then realized that if you just look at every other string (G D A E), you've got violin tuning. The symmetricality of this tuning and its similarity to violin tuning make it very easy for me to visualize the location of notes and chords. And then there is the fact that any three adjacent notes form either a major or minor triad. You've got the I (D F# A), the IV, the V, the vi, and the iii. I just fell in love with this tuning.
Anyway, when I got a pedal steel, I wanted to use the same tuning. In developing a copedent for it, I set up A and B pedals to raise the F# to G and A to B. And, I set up my one knee lever to raise the C# to D. I also set up a pedal to raise D to D#/Eb. That's pretty comparable to the Emmons F lever. That not only gives me a diminished triad (which is really cool) but a B dominant 7 chord that can then be lowered to a B minor 7. So, I am definitely using parts of the Emmons copedent (the most important parts, I think).
The shortcomming of my tuning is that it doesn't offer any chord inversions or chords with notes repeated an octave higher. Adding those is one of the objectives I have with designing a copedent. Other objectives are providing the means for nice voice leading on chord changes and a bit of juicy melodic ornamentation. I have figured out most of the changes I want to incorporate. Now I'm trying to map them out to pedals and levers. I'm doing that as well as I can on my Fender 1000 to see whether they are ergonomic. But, only having one knee lever and one raise/lower per string means there are things I can't do. That's why I'm asking all the questions. I ordered an Excel yesterday and will need to give him my desired copedent before too long.
So, the short of it is that I do analyze what others have done and try to make the best use of it I can, but I've got my own path. And I like to ask questions. Thanks for the help and I wish you all a pleasant evening. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 Mar 2024 11:27 pm
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| Looks kinda cool, but it also looks like a new wheel to me. Good luck. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 2 Mar 2024 12:56 am
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Now we've heard the full back story it sounds more like a fascinating project than a waste of spokes.
I also started on a PSG with three pedals and one lever, and I had nowhere near exhausted its possibilities before I moved on to a better instrument which came with more changes. This is why I subscribe to the conservative less-is-more philosophy.
But then I'm a non-ex-violinist with the full use of both hands, so what do I know?
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 2 Mar 2024 10:55 am
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| Quote: |
| sounds more like a fascinating project than a waste of spokes. |
Whole heartedly agree.
As a musician, you obviously have a firm and flexible understanding of musical concepts, and are also keenly studying the systems that have come before.
Another thing here is that you can always put aside time to spend on the more established ways and still continue with your own ideas...
I've reworked my back neck into a ridiculous number of tunings and systems yet am always coming back to more established approaches as a reference point.
I sometimes put aside weeks / months to get inside standard C6, but it is ultimately a means to fuel my own tuning experiments.
There is indeed a fine line between an informed re-working of the wheel and a flurry of experiments that have little sustainability.
As an obsessive experimenter, I have found myself in the latter realm a fair amount.
It is not wasted time though if one has the intention and commitment to engage with the instrument and its vast possibilities. Keep at it. |
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Alan Davidson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 2 Mar 2024 11:21 am
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> This is why I subscribe to the conservative less-is-more philosophy.
Yes, that's one reason I prefer 8-string over 10. |
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Alan Davidson
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 Mar 2024 4:07 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
https://b0b.com/wp/copedents/dennis-montgomerys-stacked-7ths/
As it turns out, you are not the inventor of this wheel, Alan.
This one is slightly different
https://b0b.com/tunings/blee.htm |
Thanks for those pointers Fred! Actually, I did run across those after I independently came up with that tuning. I figured someone else must have already used it. And, like I said, I ran across a reference somewhere that Jerry Byrd also used this tuning, but off of a different root.
Anyway, when I ran across that page of Dennis's copedent, I was only playing non-pedal steel, so I didn't pay attention to anything but the tuning. It's very interesting to read it over again and study the copedent since I got my pedals. I actually considered every one of his copedent elements, but in the end I tweaked each of them. For example, on his pedal C, I moved the 4th string raise to A# to a separate pedal along with an 8th string raise to G# (also on that separate pedal). This results in the B and F# chords being dominant 7ths rather than major 7ths. That's really helpful because this tuning is already full of major 7ths and minor 7ths but has no dominant 7ths. In this tuning, it's generally good practice to keep changes on the same pedal at least 4 strings apart.
BTW, I notice that you also live in California. Where abouts are you? I'm in Berkeley. |
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David Wisson
From:
Bedford, Bedfordshire, England
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Posted 10 Mar 2024 2:03 am
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Hi Alan Playing Pedal steel is like your first date. You stick with your basic moves and as the relationship grows you discover sexier additions.  The vertical knee lever is like Marmite some love it some don't. I made a forward moving lever on the right knee. easy to use with other levers. Love it. It only took me 40 years to discover it. The pedal steel is the unicorn of the stringed instrument world. Once you are under it's spell it will make you tinker with it's many parts, move pedals & knee levers multiple times. do total strip downs and rebuilds. Then it makes you spend buckets of money on finding your own elusive sound via amps, picks, bars, leads, effects, seats. then when your old and knackered you have a revelation and lo, that elusive sound was there all the time if only you hadn't spent most of your life and money comparing your playing and tone to all of the great Pros. In conclusion. I am still under it's spell and can't wait to retire and flip the old girl over and remake all of her knee levers. Best instrument in the World! Dave oh and they even turns up in your dreams. I remember waking up convinced I had brought a Blue Birdseye Maple Emmons Loafer and searched the whole house for it. ( I was 17 and saving up for one) but even back then I didn't know the Black ones sounded better. Darn it! |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 11 Mar 2024 3:35 am
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| Alan Davidson wrote: |
| Thanks Donny! Can anyone tell me how difficult it is to play an up lever in combination with a right or left lever on the same knee? Is that a friendly or unfriendly combination? |
I've never found any combination of Pedal, K Lever with a V Lever convenient, I've always found it awkward. Others have with no issues, but not me. My Steel doesn't have any V Lever set up to be used with any other pedal or lever. My V Lever drops 5 + 6 a full tone, its used on its own.
I found that my time is better served practicing music rather than dialing in awkward physical combinations !
Best
tp
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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