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Topic: 440 vs 432 |
Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 5 Jan 2024 8:16 am |
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Back in '98, I took John Prine;s advice to:"Blow up your TV, Throw away your papers, Go to the country,
Build you a home. Plant a little garden, Eat a lot of peaches, Try an' find Jesus on your own"
By then, internet progressed to point of finding news on internet before it came on TV. I had to do many things but wasn't doing them, spending my time watching TV or hearing it background. Being "unplugged" many years,
I got much accomplished, recorded CD, later built a house.
It was then I began to realize about 432 tuning. Had a Martin guitar in big room with hardwood floors, echo box before adding carpets. I used my signal generator to get 432 adn used that as A to tune guitar. In that room guitar seemed to come alive so much more in 432 than in 440.
Nature is tuned to 1 beat per second. One octave above that is 2, then 4, then 6, 16 on up to 256. When A is 432, middle C is 256.0. WHen A is 432, C is 256.0, seven of the 12 musical tones are even number frequencies.
When A is 440, all other 11 musical tones are irrational numbers with never ending decimals.
Point is, every music, commercials, etc on TV and radios are these irrational frequencies. I remember learning guitar, tuned to 440 I could eventually play along with records, except to Hendrix "Are you Experienced". I had to tune my guitar to the record to begin to play along. It turned out that all his music then, as well as the video now available of his performance at Woodstock, he was tuned to 432.
That was in the days before electronic tuners were even made, except for the monster Peterson strobe unit. Life was simple then. Get to the gig and you tuned my one dude, usually piano, playing E note that everyone tuned to.
It turns out 1953 was the day that music died. 1953 was when ISO declared 440 to be international standard for music. Before that, only Honer marine band harmonicas were 1st appearance of 440 tuning. Just a bit of history all leading up to the crazy world we all live in today.
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 5 Jan 2024 7:39 pm Ramblings...
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Sound has power, and everything has a resoant frequency. However, a sound or tone that makes you feel good may make someone else irritable, so it's all really POV. That said, I see the theory of a 432 Hz tuning standard being "better" or more healthy than 440 Hz as being a rather subjective and pointless argument. There is no scientific evidence to that effect, and even the idea that 432 Hz is "Nature's Frequency" turns out to be false when you consider that the natural frequency of the Earth (known by scientists as the "Schumann Frequency") is 7.83 hz. The tuning standards have changed dozens of times, and though they are more standardized now than ever before, there are still variations; variations based on the type of music, the instrument's capabilities, as well as the whims of the composers and players. As to seven of the twelve tones' frequency being even numbers in a 432 Hz tuning, that's nothing but a coincidence. You have to remember that our measurement of frequency, hertz or cycles-per-second, is based on a time measurement of one second. But that standardized measure of time (a second), is a relatively new one, having only been around for a few hundred years. It was in the late 17th century that mechanical clocks came about, and before that, the concept of "seconds" really didn't exist as a measurement of time. There was no need for "seconds" when all people referred to as far as daily time to was morning, afternoon, evening, and night. Sundials, also known as "shadow clocks", have been around for a few thousand years, and they were the main timepiece before mechanical clocks came about. But their resolution was usually limited to 4 divisions between each hour, so anything less than a measurement of 15 minutes was rather unnecessary.
Anyhow, some guitars, in some rooms, may sound better when tuned up or down. I see that as merely being acoustics at work, and not some spititual or celestial significance. I expect some may disagree, and that's fine; perfectly acceptable. Music is music, and you like what you like. |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2024 12:53 am Re: Ramblings...
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| As to seven of the twelve tones' frequency being even numbers in a 432 Hz tuning, that's nothing but a coincidence. |
There is absolutely no other possible frequency besides 432 that has 7 out of 12 "coincidences"
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 7 Jan 2024 2:43 am
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There is a tendency in the orchestral world for pitch to gradually rise in a search for a brighter sound. Then players of older woodwind instruments protest and a truce is called. This inflationary cycle is ancient.
Before electronic keyboards, guitars tuned to whatever piano was there, which could be at any non-mystical pitch.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 7 Jan 2024 7:05 am
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If you like 432, great. Playing flat is a bit different sound. So is playing sharp. As long as everybody does the same, it's fine to me. To me, it's relative pitch discrepancies that bother me most.
With most people I deal with, I'd have to have a bloody good explanation to convince everyone to tune down to 432. And seriously, not everybody is tech-savvy and knows how to work the innards of their tuners to change A = 440 Hz to something else. I have occasionally given on-the-gig tutorials.
I have been in bands with harp (harmonica) players that had harps that tended pretty flat of A = 440. So in those cases, we had such a reason to tune down. Even then, it was sometimes a challenge to convince everyone to do it. But I think it generally works better to tune to the instrument that is not readily re-tuned. |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2024 7:21 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Before electronic keyboards, guitars tuned to whatever piano was there, which could be at any non-mystical pitch. |
Back in '70's in SF, I was bass player and did a few rehearsals and few shows with 2 band of two keyboard players, younger one sang, older one was a piano tuner. He showed me how to tune pianos, setting temperament by ear. ISO declaring 440 must have been a big # maker for tuners. Before 1953, most pianos were at 432. On old pianos not tuned in years, tuners have to do a "pitch-raise" taking a few tunings to get to pitch.
That was also when I met b0b, I had bass gigs with bands he was steel player. When I got first pedal steel, b0b helped my on landline anytime I had a question. Portable chromatic tuners came out then, which I had to get for pedal steel. At time, you couldn't tune by ear on breaks with background jukebox playing, every song a different standard it seemed.
432 sounds about 1/4 step flat from 440. Before the convid lockdowns, I was doing gigs singing/playing guitar in acoustic trio, bass player was electric, other instrument was cello. Cello player tuned by ear, bass player's tuner had function to set other than 440 so we always played in 432. I think it was less stress on voice.
There was a time in '90s I was living in camper on 12v, never hearing that 60hz hum. I think that helped develop my relitive pitch. Funny how that constant 60hz hum from fluorescent lights and such (50hz in EU) is always dissonant to music in 440. The world should make electric AC to be 55hz instead of 60 (or 50 UK, EU). 55hz is a low "A" in 440, which is all media music today. Might make for a more peaceful world. 
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 7 Jan 2024 12:57 pm
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"Are you Experienced" is not tuned to 432. I just checked. It isn't.
Read Donny's post carefully. There is absolutely zero evidence that there is anything special about 432.
The things you use as examples are incorrect/provably false. They are not even coincidences.
The 432 thing is an old bit of hokum that found a new life with the internet.
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Bob |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2024 2:30 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
"Are you Experienced" is not tuned to 432. I just checked. It isn't.
Read Donny's post carefully. There is absolutely zero evidence that there is anything special about 432.
The things you use as examples are incorrect/provably false. They are not even coincidences.
The 432 thing is an old bit of hokum that found a new life with the internet. |
I didn't have a tuner in the 60s but know I had to tune to the record to be able to play along. Yes some songs were different but none were 440 I don't recall. Possibly some songs were sped up or slowed down in studio
Tune your guitar to this song from Woodstock,
Woodstock is clearly 432.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2vxoWbUG-k&list=PLwl83FtM2x-dUDNpBYkFu6jodH7YnFCD4&index=3
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Bob Shilling
From:
Berkeley, CA, USA
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Posted 7 Jan 2024 3:15 pm
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| Quote: |
Nature is tuned to 1 beat per second. One octave above that is 2, then 4, then 6, 16 on up to 256. When A is 432, middle C is 256.0. WHen A is 432, C is 256.0, seven of the 12 musical tones are even number frequencies.
When A is 440, all other 11 musical tones are irrational numbers with never ending decimals. |
Donny already explained that the second is an arbitrary time definition. You say that seven notes in 432 tuning are even number frquencies. They are not. Do you mean they are rational numbers? If so, you may be refering to the intervals of just intonation vs equal temperament. That's a whole other thread.
Hendrix tuned a half step down, but I don't see how that translates to tuning in 432.
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Bob Shilling, Berkeley, CA--MSA S10, "Classic" |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Jan 2024 8:32 pm Re: Ramblings...
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| Raybob Bowman wrote: |
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| As to seven of the twelve tones' frequency being even numbers in a 432 Hz tuning, that's nothing but a coincidence. |
There is absolutely no other possible frequency besides 432 that has 7 out of 12 "coincidences" |
To get technical, the number of “evens” varies with the octave you’re talking about, some octaves have up to 7 “evens”, and some have less. However, tuning the A-note to to a base frequency of 444 Hz also yields octaves with up to 7 “evens”, but it’s still scientifically meaningless for the aforesaid reasons. Incidentally, if you do some research on the internet (the sanctuary for flat-earthers) it seems that 432 Hz has been replaced as Nature’s frequency, and 444 Hz is now the frequency of love, peace, harmony, etc. Go figure.  |
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Douglas Schuch
From:
Valencia, Philippines
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Posted 8 Jan 2024 12:22 am
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It's well known that Hendrix tuned down a half-step (also SRV, and others - particularly blues guys). Down a half step from A 440 would be tuning A to 415.30 - a good bit lower than 432. As a blues harp player, any guitar player who wants to tune down a 1/2 step can either buy me the harps needed to cover the half-step keys or find a new harmonica player! If you tune 432, you can't play with any electric keyboards.
I'm told that symphonies these days more often tune 442 or 443, as Ian Rae notes.
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 8 Jan 2024 1:42 am
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Yes they do. And if you have a nice old clarinet you have to buy a nice new one. Not that I'm suggesting a conspiracy or anything...
By the late 19th c. concert pitch in Britain had risen to an incredible A=452 and an amnesty reduced it to 439.
(Brass bands were still using the old "high pitch" when I was at school in the industrial north in the 60s. We had a lot of converted instruments that had extra bits of tubing soldered in!)
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Joachim Kettner
From:
Germany
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Posted 8 Jan 2024 4:04 am
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Hendrix did not tune a half step down on every song he played. An exception would be The Wind Cries Mary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD4GLulMz8A
I once tried to play his song "Angel" where there are a lot of chord changes, where it needs to be so.
Poco tuned everything down a half-note.
I think the Beatles adjusted Their instruments to the "out of tune" piano on Misery.
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Fender Kingman, Sierra Crown D-10, Evans Amplifier, Soup Cube. |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 8 Jan 2024 5:14 am
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| Douglas Schuch wrote: |
| It's well known that Hendrix tuned down a half-step (also SRV, and others - particularly blues guys). Down a half step from A 440 would be tuning A to 415.30 - a good bit lower than 432. As a blues harp player, any guitar player who wants to tune down a 1/2 step can either buy me the harps needed to cover the half-step keys or find a new harmonica player! |
That is well thought of by many people. There is a band here in South Lake Tahoe that does just that. Everyone tunes instruments down 1/2 step, so that what looks like an E chord guitar player plays is actually Eb. I've played gigs with them. Talk about fun for pedal steel players lol.++
Actually in the 60s, any guitarist used a tuning fork A=440 or E=some irrational number, or a pitch-pipe. Only big Peterson strobes costing 2x rent payment, could be used for all notes. No chromatic tuners then. If records sounded off-pitch, that was done in mixing to shorten or lengthen a song, which also changes the pitch.
| Quote: |
| If you tune 432, you can't play with any electric keyboards. |
That is for sure true unless keyboard player had DX7 with a slider to change pitch and they tune by ear to the band. Some modern keyboards, the freq can be reset by the buttons.
What I know is that if I adjust my tuner to 432, tune my guitar, I can hear my open E sound just like Hendrix's open E on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wfZqs3bc8A That's Purple Haze in key of E.
Also, the video Joachim Kettner Just posted, it will be in tune with it.
If your tuner doesn't adjust out of 440, you can get a free phone app called "Tuner - Pitched" that can be set to any frequency in the preferences.
[edit]: I found that live video of Hendrix performance at Woodstock 1969. Not Hendrix Experience, different players at Woodstock.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/FsqzY4ujsTNE/
On Star Spangled Banner, you can see him fine tune two strings in mid-song as he held an E chord.
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 9 Jan 2024 1:21 am
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I would be wary of YouTube for pitch comparisons, as so many videos have been standard-converted at some point. No dossier, just saying.
A=440 at 25fps becomes 422 at 24
A=440 at 24 is 458 at 25
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 2:59 pm
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| I would be wary of YouTube for pitch comparisons, as so many videos have been standard-converted at some point. No dossier, just saying. |
True, but in the past, when tuning a 6-string with no tuner close, I ccould look up something like "Sweet Home Alabama" and know I could use first few notes to hear a D, then tune to that. At 440 I can at least try to play with many videos no problem. Same tuning to 432 I can attempt to play with those Hendrix live videos.
Another observation is that a C tuning fork is 231.6 hz, to be in tune with A=440. a medical doctor uses a 256hz fork (also 128 & 512() to check bones. With A=432, middle C=256. Our bones resonate better with 432 music.
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 4:40 pm
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When my bones start to resonate I turn the amp down.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jim Fogle
From:
North Carolina, Winston-Salem, USA
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Posted 10 Jan 2024 5:59 pm
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One aspect no one has mentioned is string instruments tuned to 432 Hz instead of 440 Hz have less strain on the instrument neck.
String bending is easier to do when an instrument is tuned to 432 Hz than at 440 Hz with all other considerations being equal.
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Remembering Harold Fogle (1945-1999) Pedal Steel Player
Dell laptop Win 10, i3, 8GB, 480GB
2024 BiaB UltraPlus PAK
Cakewalk by Bandlab Computer DAW
Zoom MRS-8 8 Track Hardware DAW |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Jan 2024 6:02 am
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Any instrument will feel strange if it has to be tuned to a pitch far from what the builder expected.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Jan 2024 11:00 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
| Any instrument will feel strange if it has to be tuned to a pitch far from what the builder expected. |
About 30 cents off is not far. Most people can't hear 10 cents out of tune. Most musicians can't hear 5 cents off. Not far, just a little more relaxed. It's not enough that a 6-string guitar would need truss rod adjustment.
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 11 Jan 2024 5:14 pm
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It depends what you mean by far, I suppose. Certainly none of this is ever going to trouble an audience! 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 15 Jan 2024 11:49 pm
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Interesting thread.
In our practical, musical tuning range, one hz is generally agreed to be about 4 cents....A 439 being roughly 4 cents flatter than A 440 and so on...
It has always struck me as peculiarly coincidental that A 432, by that measurement, is then 32 cents flat of A 440.
What strikes me as a little odd is that most of the 432 apologists seem to have very little understanding or appreciation of the intervalic relationships of notes within a tuning approach, ie, temperament. Personally I think that with all the talk of natural, organic and healing resonance, it is kind of humorous that most examples of ye olde 432 are simply taking Equal Tempered recordings and examples and slowing them down, or pitching them down about a third of a semitone, all the while still adhering to ET, which albeit useful, is a brutally unnatural tuning system that is stripped almost entirely of any inherent harmonic resonance, no matter what your starting pitch is.
That said, and out of the way, I can't help but notice that tuning everything down 30 odd cents or so does, in my experience, have a very different and dare I say refreshing quality. Our neurological aural pitch recognition faculty is apparently a stepped system, with all tone receptors akin to the thousands of pages in a miniature phone book, so to speak. So, if our pitch reception is constantly being activated by the 12 tones that correspond to A440, and octaves thereof, we will unconsciously grow tired of those tones perhaps, and a completely new starting point ( A 432 for example ) will yield a whole new crop of tones and frequencies for the brain and body to process.
Regarding the North American 60 hz hum, I completely agree with Raybob.
| Quote: |
The world should make electric AC to be 55hz instead of 60 (or 50 UK, EU). 55hz is a low "A" in 440, which is all media music today. Might make for a more peaceful world.

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I was more or less just saying this same basic thing to a piano player on a gig a couple weeks ago, except the reverse... If we could collectively shift our tuning system so that either Bb or B was in tune with the ubiquitous electrical hum, it would eliminate a great deal of unnecessary dissonance. |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 17 Jan 2024 10:54 pm
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| Quote: |
| Another observation is that a C tuning fork is 231.6 hz, to be in tune with A=440. a medical doctor uses a 256hz fork (also 128 & 512() to check bones. With A=432, middle C=256. Our bones resonate better with 432 music. |
I just checked the overtone series using 512HZ as a base. At no point does the frequency 432HZ occur naturally in relation to the frequency 512. It has no relation to the note A unless you use an arbitrary tempered tuning. When you check the numbers and the actual physics of sound this "fact" you quote turns out to be completely false.
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Bob |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 17 Jan 2024 11:04 pm
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With 512 as the C note the closest A note is 426.667 at the 5/3 reference point. That is the only A note that would resonate at all with a tuning fork tuned to C at 512 or 256. The A note at 432 does note relate in any way to a doctors tuning fork. Whoever originally made the statement
| Quote: |
| .....a medical doctor uses a 256hz fork (also 128 & 512() to check bones. With A=432, middle C=256. Our bones resonate better with 432 music. |
just made it up. It is simply not true. This is very basic stuff. It shows a willful ignorance of how sounds resonate and relate in the world. The real world of sound is a fascinating and beautifully visceral thing. The 442 thing is a delusion based on a misunderstanding.
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Bob
Last edited by Bob Hoffnar on 17 Jan 2024 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Raybob Bowman
From:
S. Lake Tahoe, CA, USA
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Posted 17 Jan 2024 11:24 pm
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| Bob Hoffnar wrote: |
| I just checked the overtone series using 512HZ as a base. At no point does the frequency 432HZ occur naturally in relation to the frequency 512. It has no relation to the note A unless you use an arbitrary tempered tuning. When you check the numbers and the actual physics of sound this "fact" you quote turns out to be completely false. |
I'm not speaking of overtones. I have a tuner app on my phone called "Tuner-Pitched" that is a chromatic tuner (equal tempered). It has a preference option to change frequency of A from 440 to anything. I set A to 432. When I tune my 6 string guitar, the low E reads 81.0, A=108.0, D=144.0, G=192.5, B=243.0, E-324.0.
My DX7 keyboard has a pitch adjust on slider. If I adjust DX7 so that A=432, then the middle C=256.
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Sierra U12 4+5 / 1933 Dobro / homemade Tele B-bender |
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