U12-curious

Dave Stagner · From: Minnesota, USA

As a new player just starting to get the hang of it, I’m thinking of swapping my D10 for a U12, so I can focus my learning curve on one more complicated neck rather than two simpler ones. But I have questions.

First is tuning. I see three that interest me - traditional E9/B6 universal, extended E9, and D13. Pros/cons of each? Strong opinions?

Second question is where to put the E lever. I get that in universal tunings, it’s kind of the “B6 mode” lever, so it would likely stay on while playing that way. In that case, wouldn’t it make more sense to make it RKL rather than on the left, freeing the left foot to reach the pedals? My current steel (an old ZB D10) has the E lever on LKL, and it seems it’d be near impossible to operate pedals off to the right with my knee over like that. Or should the E lever be LKR and put the F on LKL, so those E string changes are all on the left knee?

Am I overthinking all this?
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I don’t believe in pixie dust, but I believe in magic.

1967 ZB D-10
1990 OMI Dobro
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

You are correct with the knee lever positioning. Eb lever is best on RKR or RKL. Mine is RKR.
I've been playing E9/B6 Universal for 40yrs. I guess I would be bias toward that tuning. E9th and B6th fret positions would be the same compared to C6th and E9th. Having a B string at the 9th string position is just a matter of getting used to it, which wouldn't take long. You'll still have the D note at the 9th string position by using a knee lever to raise the B to D. The B to D pull is very nice on slow tunes. When it comes to a learning curve C6 vs B6, B6 should be quicker to learn. I was playing swing tunes on a D-10 E9th neck and couldn't get the full chords on the bottom end and the 9th string (D) was always in the way of any chord strums. After switching to a U-12, it made more sense to me. Plus, There is the advantage of switching in and out of both tunings on the fly.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

When I got a GFI S12 7P/4K from a friend, With the guitar was a Jeff Newman 12 String Universal video lesson.

On Mr. Newman's video in his 12 Universal tuning, He has Day Setup on pedals 1C-2B-3A. So the C pedal is to the left out of the way. He Lowers his E's 4 & 8 and 2nd string to C# on RKR, For the B6th tuning.

Mr. Newman's set up, Raises the E's 4, 8 and 11 on RKL.
His guitar also has a long 5th string B to Bb LKV lever that is very long so it can be used with any pedal.

I played E9th 10 string tuning Day pedals set up, Raise E's Left Knee Right, Lower E's Left Knee Left. I had no problem changing E knee Levers to right knee . On the Newman 12U tuning the original B10-E8-G#6 grip is now B9-E8-G#6 grip was a little tricky to get set in my memory.

Johnny Cox's D13th Tuning, Has been around just a few months. Would be a tuning to consider also, From what I have heard Mr. Cox play on D13th tuning.

The Extended E9th tuning is first 10 strings E9th tuning with the 11th string G# and 12th string E added.

Good Luck in the tuning you chose, Happy Steelin.

Douglas Schuch · From: Valencia, Philippines

I can tell you my experience as the perpetual novice player (12 years a novice, now!).

First, though, Ext E9 is a step down from D-10 - it gives the E9 a little more range, and you can add a pedal that drops the lowest string like a Boo-wah, but it doesn't really do what a C6, E6/B6 uni, or I think Johnny C's D13 does.

There is one more tuning worth looking at - but it's best if you are primarily interested in C6 stuff. It's Maurice Anderson's Bb6, currently played by David Wright and Christopher Woitach. Think of it as a reverse E9/B6 uni, and tuned down 1/2 step. The default tuning is the 6th tuning, and you use a lever to put it into a more standard 9th tuning.

So, my experience: After a little bit playing E9 on a Stage One, I realized I wanted to be able to do the swing stuff that C6/B6 is very good for. So I had a similar debate - but mine was Uni or D-10? I finally decided on Uni. Several years later I went to D-10 and am much happier. Here is why:

1) This is just my own thing - won't apply to everyone - but I found I had problems bouncing around among 7 pedals with hitting the right pedal. Moving from the A/B pedals (Emmons setup) to one of the B6 pedals, I had a low success rate hitting the correct pedal clean. I opten ended up catching the edge of a neighboring pedal (serious disharmony!) or just on the wrong pedal. Did I mention that I tend to be clumsy at foot-sports, but (in my youth, anyway) was very good at upper-body sports? So maybe it's just me. Anyway, this made the "great big tuning" concept moot for me - I found myself either locking in B9 and playing on that side, or unlocking and playing E9 style.

2) That string 9! I like it, and don't want to put it on a lever. I've already got lots of stuff on levers already. Most Uni tunings, you lose string 9 of the E9 tuning.

3) Total possible pulls - Because a D-10 these days often has 5 levers on the E9 and 5 on the C6 (mine does), I can get more possible changes with a D-10. However, on the flip side, only half of those changes are useable on a particular neck. Someone more adept at hitting all 7 pedals would argue that his single neck has more changes than my double neck does on either of my necks since I only use one at a time.

4) arrangement of pedals/levers: You might, when in B6 mode, want a lever in a particular place that does a particular change - but in E9 mode, you find you need that lever to do something else entirely. With D-10, you can assign and arrange pedals to best suit each neck's particular tuning. With Uni, you have to balance between the two tunings.

4) Kind of similar to 3 - I've got a slightly unusual coped these days as I have the Emmons Pedal 5 on my LKR (C6 cluster). This means I only have 4 pedals on either neck - I'm pretty comfortable with that. I rarely use pedal 0 (Franlin pedal) or pedal 4 (standard Emmons C6). This arrangement makes the double pedal with 5 and 7 simple, which is the most common double pedal that normally requires double-footing it. D-10 makes this coped work. It would be a challenge to put it on a Uni - and would require lots of relearning!

In short, unless you are confident you can master hitting all 7 or more pedals from any other pedal accurately, and also confident you will be able to errase the idea of two tunings and see it as "one big tuning", I don't think there is any benefit. If, on the other hand, you can do these, then it might be a good match.

As always, YMMV
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Bringing steel guitar to the bukid of Negros Oriental!

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I swapped to uni B6/E9 while still a novice, and I agree with everything Dennis says, and what Bobby says about Day being best. As for Douglas's worry about pedals, you will generally have your foot over A&B or 5&6, rather than trying to cover everything at once.

While you're considering the matter, tune your C6 neck down to B to get used to the new fret positions in advance of changing over - it helped me a great deal.
(One advantage of B6 is that gets the key of C away from the nut.)

A word on levers. I lower Es on RKR to give total freedom for the left foot, and I have two verticals rather than a single long one - not only does a long lever have a long travel at its free end, but I can have slightly different changes on the two.
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Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

John De Maille · From: On a Mountain in Upstate Halcottsville, N.Y.

I've been playing my U-12 for 20 years set up to Jeff Newmans copedent, however, I used the standard ABC pedals. I lower my strings 4+8 on my RKR lever, which, frees up my left foot and knee to choose any pedal or knee lever without constrictions. I must say that, though I play mostly E-9th and am still learning the nuances of the 6th side of it I enjoy the aspect of both tunings so conveniently on one neck. My 6th playing is mostly for Western swing tunes and not jazz or pop tunes. It's very simple to switch from one tuning to the other, so, it's really just like one big tuning.
My choice of a U-12 tuning is because I don't like reaching across the inside neck to play the outside neck with my "short" arms. It's much more comfortable for me.
As to not having a D string in the open tuning, I have a RNL knee lever that raises the 9th string B to a D note. So, when I need it, it's very attainable.
So, the U-12 steel verses the D-10 steel is a personal choice and there are some very strong feelings for both, I would say try to play both of them and see what fits you better.
You and only you can decide which is best. Hopefully, I've cleared the waters a little better for you.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I like 12 string D13 the best. Very little of what any D-10, ext E9th, or universal tuning can do is lost with D13 and it retains the E9th string 9. It also offer a lot of non-pedal grips and single string riffs and some Chalker/Anderson changes. My second choice would be a D-10 especially if I were to pursue a course like Paul Franklin's.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

John talks perfect sense but I'd like to put in a word for the Day setup as having the A pedal next to P5 brings benefits. On the B6 side of the animal the C pedal has no meaning, whereas the A pedal is useful melodically. Also there's generally nowhere on a uni to put the half step raise that's on string 3 on the C6 - A,5 and the vertical (a natural move) provides that change and gives a useful 6th chord (G#6 at the nut)

I'm not ignoring Greg, but the recent interest in D13 has come a little late for me! Smile

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Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

Johnny Cox · Posted 15 Sep 2023 5:34 pm

I've tried them all. D13th is the most complete and easiest to learn.
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Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
"YANKIN' STRINGS & STOMPIN' PEDALS" since 1967.

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Universal tuning needs to change its name, since it isn’t universally acknowledged as the ultimate tuning.

Extended E9 was the next logical step up from S10 E9 for me. As a double-duty player on guitar, I do not have time or brain space to look at a neck with tuning that throws me off my interval game. A tuning grounded in E is very comfortable.

If I was going to play steel full time in a band, I think I would gravitate towards D13. It also seems like a more logical next step than the other 12 string options, and does not seem to require as much hardware to get to where I would want to go. As far as going the D13 route as a novice, that might be overshooting a bit unless you had a good tutor.

Dave Stagner · From: Minnesota, USA

Learning how to use tunings doesn’t throw me in general. I’ve been using alternative tunings on guitar for over 30 years. The problem with steel is that you can’t fundamentally change the tuning on the fly, because it’s not just the strings, it’s the whole copedent. So if/when I get a 12 string, I’m pretty much stuck with whatever copedent I start on, unless I’m willing to put in a lot of work changing it (and then learning how to play in the new copedent!).

D13 ia appealing because it doesn’t have that “key change” switch. It’s one tuning, not two tunings sharing the same strings. And my head isn’t so committed to E9 (and what little I know of C6 so far) that I can’t just go that direction. But as I look at the copedent on paper, I’m not fully understanding what it does yet, so I need to study.

E9/B6, on the other hand, is more compatible with the world. I’m already planning to tune my C6 neck down to B6 when I get home after this weekend, just to start learning it that way.
_________________
I don’t believe in pixie dust, but I believe in magic.

1967 ZB D-10
1990 OMI Dobro
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Extended E9 has a lot of B6 going for it. And A6, and D6. G6 for the adventurous.

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Fred, how much B6 does E9 really have? It has no P6,7 or 8, and the D string mucks up the grips. Just a little puzzled is all...

Changing the subject slightly, I've never bought the "one big tuning" idea. To me a uni is just a D10 where the two sets of pedals share the same neck, thus saving weight. Okay, I sometimes borrow a change from the other side, but mentally I'm always in one mode or the other. This thing's complicated enough!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Whether you play E9/B6, B or Bb6/E or Eb6th, D13th, Zane Beck's or Zane King's E13th... even without pedals, you already have tunings which encompass several chords.

C6th as and example has C Major 6th, F Major 7th, A minor 7th, and I will argue F Major's relative minor D minor 11th across almost all strings.
Once you hit most any pedals and knee levers and combinations you switch "key"... really the whole board across again, likely with a number of chords.

"Universal" was invented by a Texan Swing Bb6th player by the name of Maurice Anderson who felt that instead of dealing witch a second neck, the instrument was mechanically advanced enough to handle both "tunings" on one neck.
Jeff Newman, then made possibly a "marketing" decision and turned it around making E9th the base and B6th the "switch-over". Which was logical for someone base near Nashville and making most of his income from E9th and Country-type music and proved timely right as more and more dedicated most of their time to E9th.

Maurice taught me to look at the universal as ONE tuning, NOT as two.
Once one sees the fluid connections (after all, E9th players add pedals to a held down Eb-lever too... the B-pedal for a 7th, adding the A-pedal too. etc.
The B-pedal does the same thing as the "add-on"-lever on C6th which raises the A's half. A BE-C6th P6 puts the guitar back into E7th like releasing the Eb-lever (there is a redundancy there that is amplified with a commonly added lever to raise the 9th string B to D to regain the out of stand-alone E9th ditched 9th D string, the b7th to E9th.

Zane Beck then came up with E13th probably with a very similar thinking to what D13th developers now have come up with in a more complete way.
I believe Zane King (a ZB protege) still plays an evolution of E13th "a la" ZB.

Maurice played basically 2 guitars, "his" Bb6th/Eb9th Universal which did only have A&B and no C-pedal but had some added non-BE-C6th setup changes on the Bb6th, and because of seminars, teaching and income generation from Country music (playing the Johnny High Opry in Arlington, TX etc, also an E9th/B6th similar to Jeff Newmans setup. Maurice being "Reece", could however keep the audience convinced he was playing his Bb6th-Uni. playing complex Jazz and NeoSoul chord trains all night long... while still on his green-black E9th-B6th guitar. The red-blond Bb6th/Eb9th would have maybe been a bit more obvious as it was "short" on the "Country"-end.

Interestingly, John Hughey had at some time an "A&B" knee lever added to his C6th raising just the top A-half & C-whole (like an early Bud Isaacs pedal), which allowed him to play some "E9th" (really F9th)-licks with P6 down (which puts the guitar in F7th... really, F9th. Call that an ultra light "Universal" C6th as his C6th was "loaded" even in early years.

When I got back to PSG after almost 20 years away from my last E9th/B6th universal, I decided to re-approach the instrument from a very different angle. I had spent a good time playing Gypsy Jazz accompaniment and came out of that looking at Jazz, chords and progressions in a much matured and structured/simplified way. I felt ready to tackle the instrument as a Jazz instrument, something I had been longing to do all the years I had been playing.
So, within of a week after getting a beautiful new S12 E9th Universal from MSA, I decided to move to B6th/E9th and move my P6 to RKL... that would still act as my "P6"-change but also as my gateway to E9th with A,B & C. The P6 to RKL change I also put my P5 next to P7... and now I could play them together or even with my lever doing what "P6" used to all three together.
Then I ditched the C-pedal.
Needless to say, my interest became more and more Jazz, Bebop, Soul and I soon ditched A&B-pedals too and instead added more "Jazz"-changes. I am now at 6P and 8K in a somewhat unorthodox setup (C-toC#'s raised on a pedal to the left of trad.-P5.
I got pretty much every change Doug Jernigan, Paul Franklin, Maurice (except for his "Reece"-pedal) and most anybody had and had become "accepted" add-on C6th changes on a 12 string which has the last 5 strings: C, A, F, D, C... the first four acting as the root "trackers" (as Maurice called his) to the 4 chords naturally occurring on "open C6th" (C Maj, Amin, F Maj, Dm, as described earlier).
Spread out into any same name chord over an octave, I got a root position to 4 pockets 3, 4, 3 and 2 and then agina 3, 4, etch... frets apart of each other to the octave (12 frets)... in AVERAGE every 3 frets. This is how I "organize my neck" (another Maurice term).
I am very happy with it, but would NEVER recommend the setup to people online.

Anyways... slippery slope off subject.

What I am trying to say is what Bobbe Seymore can be seen trying to explain in one of his YouTUBE C6th videos: "<i>The basic setup gives you everything", everything else is just REPETITION!</i>"

Repetition is good, and NEEDED... because you want to be able to play each chord, really EVERYTHING again at least a 4th or respectively a 5th apart of each other so to be able to play everything in every key without bumping over the nut into the keyhead or wandering too far off into Hughey-Land (too far up the frets).

The question is "What kind of music is the most important to you"?

If Jazz, Swing, Bebop is only a muse next to playing Country and doing all the sounds E9th is so known for, I would suggest either sticking to a D10 or going to Jeff's E9th/B6th.
I can't comment on D13th because I haven't played it. But one thing I am fairly certain of, is that with D13th you will have to have good theoretical knowledge of how tunings and setup differ or be a real ear-player to be able convert and use teaching material mostly available for E9th or C6th. Converting C6th to one fret up on a B6th is "easy"... doing the same down on D13th (the grips may vary there too on some inversions because of the presence of the 9th in the middle somewhere) shouldn't be too hard but may elude a beginner in music as such. So, as for D13th, I would definitely first see someone who plays one well and then sit at it for an hour or two to make my mind up... for someone who has not played Decades of D10 or Uni, it's a hefty monetary commitment and time investment to jump onto a tuning and setup that is "new" and has no teaching material.

If it's Jazz, Swing, Bebop, Pop that keep you up at night..., well, you are going to deal with music which requires theoretical understanding just because of the complexities found in those genres, so any 6th or 13th tuning will get you there, may be time to look at D13th, B6th/E9th or again stick to D10 and load that C6th neck to what PF or Dough Jernigan have it.

I think that starting out, and with an open enough mind to already consider "Universal"... you ought to keep that mind open and stick to the D10 for a year or so and analyze what you are playing on one neck on the other.
While many have been able to play a quite credible "C6th Swing" on a 10-string E9th, Buddy Emmons had everybody marveling at him playing "E9th"-stuff on his still fairly basic C6th setup... and with a big grin too.

I am unsure all this is helpful to the OP... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I couldn't grasp the idea of it being one big tuning either. Maybe the D-10 guitar could be called "one big tuning" since it has 20 strings on one guitar body? It could also be built as "one big neck" if you build it with one 20 string neck? Laughing

One year at the ISGC at Chase Park, there was a single neck 20 string on display in the outer hallway before entering the convention hall. I don't know what tuning was on it. I assume it was E9/C6. Definitely a monster creation.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

The E9th tuning was also referred to as "the money neck" because the general public or couples coming to hear a band could better understand what you were playing (pretty or fast recognizable melodies with moving harmony notes). All of which gained more jobs into more night clubs. That's been my experiences around my area over the years. Sprinkled with some swing. The E9/B6 was and still is more lucrative for me. We would throw "Plus Nine" into the set list and get negative response from most patrons. No one danced? Embarassed

However, the band got their fix and had fun with it. "All In The Family Theme" got better response because the public recognized it, and you can jam on it for a short time without getting negative vibes. There are no jazz clubs that I know of in my area and if there were, it would likely be a small musically inclined audience and one club with a line of University of Iowa music majors waiting their turn to play.
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1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

I admired Julian Tharpe. I have one of his albums.
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

Pete Burak · From: Portland, OR USA

I am a Jeff Newman S12U E9/B6 Universal player and would say that this is still a good way to go for folks who are new to Pedal Steel and are planning to play regularly with a live band.

Justin Shaw · From: Ontario, Canada

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Dave Stagner · From: Minnesota, USA

Thanks, J D, for that terrific history post! I’ve already re-read it a couple of times.

So here’s where I’m coming from… my roots are definitely in country and rock more than jazz, so I need to be able to do those classic E9 country sounds. I’ve been playing for about five months now, enough to get past the confusion point and to where I can play E9 with some intention rather than just licks. I’ve started playing in a band basically sits at the intersection of country and hippie - think New Riders of the Purple Sage, Flying Burrito Brothers, the country-ish side of the Grateful Dead. Mostly covers, some originals in that style. What I’m hoping to find, or start, is another band that plays more explicitly jam-band, more improvisational and “out”. And though new to pedal steel, I have 40+ years of guitar, so I get the music side.

With all those years and bands, I know how I “hear”. Rather than jazzy extended seventh chords, I tend to go dense - suspended fourths and seconds, 6/9 and 7sus4, lots of close intervals, major or minor seconds cropping up in the interior of my chords - so some dissonance. And I want to be able to play in a lower register, which C6 does well and E9 does not. I’m just starting to scratch the surface of C6, but expect to spend more time there. (I’ve played C6 lap steel, but pedal is a ifferent beast.) I want to be able to do some rock-type stuff down low, too. And finally, I’m wanting to do some “easy listening” light-jazz instrumental stuff with my longtime drummer and whatever guitarist or bassist we can talk into it.

Current instrument is a ZB D10. It sounds great, but needs a rebuild that is beyond my skills. And the copedent is what is is, unless I find someone smarter than me to change that. And the ZB weighs a ton, so it’s a pain to lug around for gigs.

So I’m thinking a U12 to be more practical (lighter, easier to change copedent), have a bigger range without switching necks, and be a little easier to do harmony the way I hear it iin my head - closer intervals, altered and suspended chords.

What I need is like four instruments. And a place to put them. Smile

_________________
I don’t believe in pixie dust, but I believe in magic.

1967 ZB D-10
1990 OMI Dobro
Recording King lap steel with Certano benders

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

No matter what upgrade you decide, it will be musically interesting, fun, challenging, and eventually very satisfying. I took similarly excellent advice three years ago from a lot of these same pros here in this thread, and I am not disappointed with my decision at all. I learn something new every time I sit down to play.

J D Sauser · From: Wellington, Florida

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Dave, you sound to be in a similar genre of music that I've been in for many years, classic rock, southern rock, new and old country including Texas swing. It's what lands the jobs around here. Occasionally some jazz to get outside of the box. The E9/B6 has fit me well. I can add some crunch to play rhythm behind the lead players rides on the rock side or play slide style on a ride or duplicate rock guitar licks. Then go clean for country. What you need is in E9/B6 tuning. b7's are everywhere on the E9th, so no need to be concerned with the missing 9th string (D). Or, you can have it back at the 9th string with a knee.
It's just my opinion of 54 years of playing experience (night clubs, Branson show and steel shows).
_________________
1976 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics 427 pickup, 1975 Birdseye U-12 MSA with Telonics X-12 pickup, Boss 59 Fender pedal for preamp, NDR-5 Atlantic Delay & Reverb, two Quilter 201 amps, 2- 12" Eminence EPS-12C speakers, ShoBud Pedal, 1949 Epiphone D-8. Revelation preamp into a Crown XLS 1002 power amp.

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