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Topic: Dixieland lap steel! |
Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2023 7:34 am |
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I finally got a chance to listen to the Six and Seven Eights String Band and it is something completely unique and wonderful. https://open.spotify.com/album/3quQup1W8l03YyhlJybNl8
These guys are true originals. There are a couple other albums as well with a few different tunes on them. There is a great untapped potential for our instrument in this music. I have always wanted to learn jazz and never had much luck. I made several attempts at lessons and they threw me headfirst into hard bop and post bop modern stuff etc. No wonder I never got anywhere. I am making some progress with these old Dixieland tunes and realizing this is what I have been hearing all along. These tunes use chords I know and changes I am familiar with only in a slightly different way. |
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Joe Burke
From:
Toronto, Canada
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Posted 2 Aug 2023 8:24 am
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| Love it! Thanks. I dabble in this type of music, usually on a tricone. But I like the sound of an acoustic guitar. Any idea what he's using with the extension nut? |
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Jouni Karvonen
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Lloyd Walsh
From:
San Antonio, Texas, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2023 9:43 am
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Looks like it’s a Gibson or something from their shop:
_________________
Hack Professor of Art
Bass player: upright/electric
Lousy Guitarist
Rookie Steel player (pedal and non-pedal)
Instagram Artwork profile: lloydwalsh7405 |
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Jouni Karvonen
From:
Helsinki, Finland
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2023 10:59 am
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| I just discovered him recently. Just found this on his website... interesting bit on Hawaiian music in New Orleans http://sevavenet.com/article.htm |
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Jim Fogarty
From:
Phila, Pa, USA
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Posted 2 Aug 2023 7:33 pm
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| Joe Burke wrote: |
| Love it! Thanks. I dabble in this type of music, usually on a tricone. But I like the sound of an acoustic guitar. Any idea what he's using with the extension nut? |
From the the pic, it looks like a Nick Lucas model or similar. |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 2 Aug 2023 8:32 pm
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Top Stuff!  Was that the late HRH the Duke of Edinburgh on Hawaiian guitar!
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Guy Cundell
From:
More idle ramblings from South Australia
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 2:56 am
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| My understanding (from the album notes) is that this recording was made around 1950, but that these guys were playing this style together in the 1920s, with many similar groups at the time but no recordings. So these recordings are like a musical fossil record of a lost tradition. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 6:05 am
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| Jim Fogarty wrote: |
| Joe Burke wrote: |
| Love it! Thanks. I dabble in this type of music, usually on a tricone. But I like the sound of an acoustic guitar. Any idea what he's using with the extension nut? |
From the the pic, it looks like a Nick Lucas model or similar. |
If you zoom in it looks like a Kalamazoo kg-14 (14 fret) round neck I am sure. The Robert Johnson guitar. Snoozer played the Gibson model. I could have had one for $150 years ago, still kicking myself. Great picture! |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 6:50 am
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This is a good example of the primitive style of mostly playing on the top strings. It is melody based steel guitar playing, simple improvisations that blend so nicely with rest. I have a very soft spot for this style because it is how I learned. It is simplistic too, and a good point of comparison with Sol Hoopii to see just how far he pushed the envelope. King Bennie is another who definitely would have to be put in that bracket.
It is a lot of fun to see how far you can expand this style of playing. I used Sol’s middle period tuning, C#m with the low E, and could get a lot out if it but I was still a new player and didn’t fully get it yet.
You could still really accomplish a lot in Dixieland style jazz using C6 or A6 (but I think C6’s range and timbre is better for it). It takes a lot of energy (practice and study) to learn how to really play through the changes and think on your feet but when you start to lock it in, it’s a great feeling and you begin to think that maybe you can play this thing after all.
I still use trad jazz tunes to teach. It’s the best way for me to teach improvisation because it’s middle ground music that is not too advanced at its core, but can be expanded a million different ways. It is a great way for someone like myself coming from a rock ‘n roll background to learn to improvise with music that has a similar kind of energy.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 8:40 am
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
This is a good example of the primitive style of mostly playing on the top strings. It is melody based steel guitar playing, simple improvisations that blend so nicely with rest. I have a very soft spot for this style because it is how I learned. It is simplistic too, and a good point of comparison with Sol Hoopii to see just how far he pushed the envelope. King Bennie is another who definitely would have to be put in that bracket.
It is a lot of fun to see how far you can expand this style of playing. I used Sol’s middle period tuning, C#m with the low E, and could get a lot out if it but I was still a new player and didn’t fully get it yet.
You could still really accomplish a lot in Dixieland style jazz using C6 or A6 (but I think C6’s range and timbre is better for it). It takes a lot of energy (practice and study) to learn how to really play through the changes and think on your feet but when you start to lock it in, it’s a great feeling and you begin to think that maybe you can play this thing after all.
I still use trad jazz tunes to teach. It’s the best way for me to teach improvisation because it’s middle ground music that is not too advanced at its core, but can be expanded a million different ways. It is a great way for someone like myself coming from a rock ‘n roll background to learn to improvise with music that has a similar kind of energy. |
The reason this style appeals to me so much right now is it is really opening up the foundations of jazz (or all music for that matter). There are some aspects of music that were never explained to me in a way that I could understand and I really am having to piece them together. The relationships between all the basic chord types. Understanding modulation and secondary dominants, chords with the same notes but different names and how and when to use them. Specifically Maj 6=min 7, Half dim = rootless dom 9= m6, using augmented and diminished chords and
altered 7th chords etc. It is easy to get lost or overwhelmed so this is the logical place to start for anyone trying to learn Jazz or advanced styles of playing. Steel guitar is a wonderful vehicle to learn these things. The amazing thing is I believe most of the old timers had almost none or no musical training at all and learned completely by ear.
I would venture to say that the basic theory used in Dixieland is pretty advanced in comparison to what most people are using in their playing in either R&R blues or country. I really love how like bluegrass the changes are not super complex, and allow anyone with a basic understanding of chords and a little ear based melodic playing to jump in. The level of virtuosity is unlimited so calling it "primitive" is maybe not the best description. I realize you are not meaning it in a negative way, but it tends to sound like less than or beneath. Knowing you from your posts Mike, I believe that you have a great reverance for these early jazz styles so that is not what I am implying. Just trying to make a distinction.
Last edited by Tim Toberer on 4 Aug 2023 4:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 9:08 am
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| Tim Toberer wrote: |
I would venture to say that the basic theory used in Dixieland is pretty advanced in comparison to what most people are using in their playing in either R&R blues or country. I really love how like bluegrass the changes are not super complex, and allow anyone with a basic understanding of chords and a little ear based melodic playing to jump in. The level of virtuosity is unlimited so calling it "primitive" is maybe not the best description. I realize you are not meaning it in a negative way, but it tends to sound like less than or beneath. Knowing you from your posts Mike, I believe that you have a great reverance for these early jazz styles so that is not what I am implying. Just trying to make a distinction. |
When I say primitive, like formative or early, I am talking about the steel guitar style. It’s not an insult. That has evolved quite a bit over the years, and for some reasons that have to do with new tunings, amplification, etc. But improvising on just the top strings is also very difficult, not easy to play interesting melodic lines. When I listen back to some older recordings in this style, especially my own, I get a little fatigued by the sound of it. But it is the best way to learn in my opinion.
A good way to get deeper into jazz is to study the style of Django's earlier quintet recordings, the tunes that are standards, because they are very guitar-centric. It seems that trying to learn from a horn player's perspective is not something that is second nature for steel. The thinking with the guitar-centric stuff is more easily digestible, especially when applied to steel. To rephrase an old maxim, "think Yiddish, speak British", I submit "think axe, speak sax." Speaking "sax" helps to keep the music breathing with melodic content.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 3:10 pm
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| Mike Neer wrote: |
| Tim Toberer wrote: |
I would venture to say that the basic theory used in Dixieland is pretty advanced in comparison to what most people are using in their playing in either R&R blues or country. I really love how like bluegrass the changes are not super complex, and allow anyone with a basic understanding of chords and a little ear based melodic playing to jump in. The level of virtuosity is unlimited so calling it "primitive" is maybe not the best description. I realize you are not meaning it in a negative way, but it tends to sound like less than or beneath. Knowing you from your posts Mike, I believe that you have a great reverance for these early jazz styles so that is not what I am implying. Just trying to make a distinction. |
When I say primitive, like formative or early, I am talking about the steel guitar style. It’s not an insult. That has evolved quite a bit over the years, and for some reasons that have to do with new tunings, amplification, etc. But improvising on just the top strings is also very difficult, not easy to play interesting melodic lines. When I listen back to some older recordings in this style, especially my own, I get a little fatigued by the sound of it. But it is the best way to learn in my opinion.
A good way to get deeper into jazz is to study the style of Django's earlier quintet recordings, the tunes that are standards, because they are very guitar-centric. It seems that trying to learn from a horn player's perspective is not something that is second nature for steel. The thinking with the guitar-centric stuff is more easily digestible, especially when applied to steel. To rephrase an old maxim, "think Yiddish, speak British", I submit "think axe, speak sax." Speaking "sax" helps to keep the music breathing with melodic content. |
Well Said Mike, I get a lot of useful info from your comments. Thanks! No one ever has to ask me twice to listen to Django. I never bore of listening to these classic recordings. I am getting closer to the point where I can actually kind of play this stuff so that is exciting for me.
I listened to the 6&7/8ths stuff again today and I was trying to analyze it a bit. It seems the steel guitar is playing on the beat and really simplifying the melody down to a few notes and accentuating them kind of like a trombone. The guitar is doing that old oom-pah thing almost piano like, accentuating the off beat and sometimes taking up the bass part and doing some pretty simple effective fills. All this creates the perfect platform for the mandolin which seems to fill in all the little spaces kind of like a clarinet and providing most of the melodic interest. The standard guitar and the steel also add in some simple counterpoint melodies which really just makes this whole picture quite lovely. They all blend in so seemlessly it is obvious they have been doing these a looong time. As stated on the recording since 1913.
Last edited by Tim Toberer on 4 Aug 2023 4:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 3 Aug 2023 6:24 pm
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Perhaps they had some influence on The Cheap Suit Serenaders, Crumb, Armstrong, Dodge and Zwigoff. Sounds like it to me. I have all their LPs and their vinyl 78rpm, in mint condition. Brozman was on the 3rd LP.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2023 4:52 am
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| David Matzenik wrote: |
| Perhaps they had some influence on The Cheap Suit Serenaders, Crumb, Armstrong, Dodge and Zwigoff. Sounds like it to me. I have all their LPs and their vinyl 78rpm, in mint condition. Brozman was on the 3rd LP. |
I am sure they were aware of them. I think these guys are fairly well known amongst hard core folk and early jazz enthusiasts. I believe there influences go far and beyond, but the net result is very similar sounding.
Just found this radio show, episodes include "the roots of the suits". https://eastriverstringband.com/radioshow/
if you scroll about 1/3 down long page! there is a picture of Crumb interviewing Bennie Nawahi in 1980. This s gold! |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 4 Aug 2023 1:14 pm
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I had heard that interview some years ago. Its a wonderful site. Not having access to original material, I owe a lot to those record collectors for their talent, curiosity, and their eccentricity.
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Sebastian Müller
From:
Berlin / Germany
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2023 5:35 am
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| Sebastian Müller wrote: |
| Great band, thank you so much for sharing, Tim ! |
Glad you liked it! If you want to go a step further, I just discovered these recordings that feature Doc Souchon (the guitar player in 6&7/8ths). https://open.spotify.com/album/0Ritiq6zHQUNmsuaLN5TcL
There is no steel guitar, but these recordings have the same relaxed feeling of the string band stuff. They also highlight Doc's style in a more traditional Dixieland setting, which is just amazing. Another interesting side note... Johnny Wiggs is the cornet player on the Snoozer Quinn recordings. |
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