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Topic: Half Stop Feel Accuracy |
Michael Hill
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 24 Apr 2023 8:46 pm |
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My RKR lowers string 2 to D at the half stop feel and to C# when fully engaged. The half stop is timed very accurately.
When playing (as opposed to tuning up), I find that I consistently overshoot the half stop feel and end up with a D that is a little flat. My question is, should I just keep practicing until I can hit the half stop more consistently or should I adjust the half stop feel to engage a little earlier so when I overshoot a little I actually end up in tune? |
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Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 12:10 am
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One option would be to tighten ever so slightly the spring that create the halfstop feel.
The stop feel and hitting it accurately can be improved if there is a deliberate intent to not touch the RKR lever. When you position your right knee at a "complete rest", only then the RKR lever will stop at the half stop with the string at D. Then you would need a further deliberate push to the right to drop the string to a C#. Your right knee will more or less feel like it is resting(barely touching) at the RKL lever without engaging it. It is very subtle but makes a definitive difference in how easy it is to hit that half stop D note.
Adjusting the halfstop feel to be before reaching the D note seems like not a good solution imo.
Practise will make it work. Even preparing the note in advance by engaging the lever early can be a solution also.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 12:25 am
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Its an interesting "mechanical" question as well. Most of the pro guitars have a half stop which is kinda " blah " My last Carter I added a rod/spring set at the half stop and required extra "energy" to get it to the full stop. I took that approach from the Emmons Legrand's which have a rod/spring/barrel assy on the 2nd string for the half stop and adjustment. If need be the spring can be changed with a stiffer spring. If I recall, some early Sho Buds had a similar rod/spring system.
I've often wondered why ALL Pro Steels didn't have something MORE suited for the half stop feel and adjustment-- other than our ear !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 4:19 am
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It very much depends on exactly what guitar we are talking about if we want to consider making the stop feel more definite. However I have never yet felt a stop that wasn't either too soft on the stop or too stiff on the full throw.
My answer to your question is yes, you need to practice until you can make it work in the heat of battle. I do not see a solution in setting it up to anticipate on over-shoot.
I don't use any feeler stops myself but have set up a bunch of other peoples' guitars and have come to see how using them accurately is a learned skill. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 7:14 am
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I agree with Jon and Bengt. Your knee lever has to be at complete rest as the starting point. But it is called a feel stop for good reason. It’s almost like bending strings on a guitar where there’s nothing mechanical to keep you from over- or under-shooting the pitch you’re trying to hit. At least on psg you get a hint of where you are with that spring and rod adjustment apparatus.
The thing I have a hard time with is going from fully engaged back to half stop (C#-D). That really is like a bend/release on guitar because the half stop doesn’t work in reverse. All feel and ear. Just a matter of practice. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 7:57 am
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I took that C# change off of that lever, because, on the bandstand, I use the D note WAY more than the C#.
Now I can slam that lever from D#-to-D no problem (it also lowers string-9 from D-to-C#).
I will happily leave the licks associated with that string-2 D#-to-C# change to others (I don't have any half-stop feels anymore). |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 8:15 am
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| Pete Burak wrote: |
I took that C# change off of that lever, because, on the bandstand, I use the D note WAY more than the C#.
Now I can slam that lever from D#-to-D no problem (it also lowers string-9 from D-to-C#).
I will happily leave the licks associated with that string-2 D#-to-C# change to others (I don't have any half-stop feels anymore). |
I have done setup work on a number of old guitars in the hands of beginners that had weak half-stop feel, as well as one brand new pull-release steel that was factory set dropping the 2nd string to C# with no half stop. On all of these I ditched the C#, always, and made it a hard D. Same as you, Pete, AFAIC that 2nd string D is fundamental. Cool stuff with the C# but by no means 'essential'.
However I note that this is a diversion from the original post (that was not asking for opinions on whether or not to have the D# > D/C# ) |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 8:21 am
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| The D#-C# change is the coolest thing ever. |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 8:31 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| The D#-C# change is the coolest thing ever. |
My findings were different. I know there's a cool Emmons-split lick associated with it, but it's not worth the half-stop feel issue on the D, during my gigs.
I'd rather use a slant to get that note.
With that said, I would always like to see some vids of other cool string-2-C# licks if anyone has some! |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 11:05 am
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| Quote: |
| With that said, I would always like to see some vids of other cool string-2-C# licks if anyone has some! |
Pete, you are a pro. I flub along mostly for my own amusement. There is, without a doubt, damn little I could show you in video (if I could actually do one) that you haven’t already played a hundred times and either rejected it or accepted it as part of your tool bag. I’m trying these things out just like you were in your 6th year of playing. I respect your opinion, but I do also have mine, and I am trying to learn from what I hear others say and do. Including you.
There, now all that’s outta the way!
A couple or 4 things I like about C# on string 2
-Access to 2 pentatonic scales across all 12 strings, one with Pedal B, one without
-Unison thing with Pedal C, glissing in and out on strings 5-4-2-1 (it rocks!)
-True 4-tone E6 chord in both octaves
-Raise string 2&1 (to E & G#) and then lowering to C# has an interesting effect on an Amaj9 type chord (B pedal)or F#m9 (B+C) chord across strings 6-1. Also works with Franklin pedal. |
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Norbert Dengler
From:
germany
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 8:14 pm
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Schild is the mechanically best guitar on the market imho
here`s the half stop. works fantastic.
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 25 Apr 2023 10:47 pm
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Following... and like Steely Pete, I'm about ready to drop the lowering to C# (hardly ever used, never "needed") to make the lower to D more accurate and less fiddly.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 26 Apr 2023 3:05 am
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That Schild system above is awesome, an adjustable stiffer spring stop at the half stop.
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 26 Apr 2023 4:24 am
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Yes. I don't know that it is much different in concept from the old Sho-Bud & MSA rod & spring half-stop but I really liked setting up a G2 with this installed. You can adjust the firmness to nearly a hard stop (but you better have thighs of titanium to push thru it) and you can put multiple half-stops on the single rod -- the second string and, for instance, a first string half stop. Independently tunable (but your spring firmness setting will apply to both). |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2023 6:10 am
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| Does that Mullen (or Schilld) mechanism allow for a smooth gliss in and out of C# on string 2, or is there a bump? |
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John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
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Posted 26 Apr 2023 8:20 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Does that Mullen (or Schilld) mechanism allow for a smooth gliss in and out of C# on string 2, or is there a bump? |
Fred, it's pretty iffy coming up to D from the C# with the Mullen half-stop. Very effective going down. Maybe a double spring configuration would allow for a firmer half-stop on the way back up to the D# note. Perhaps the Schild does that. I was in the process of ordering that gizmo, but then Covid struck and all commerce fell apart.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 27 Apr 2023 1:41 pm
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Thanks, John Mc. I’m not sure I’d even want a half stop on the way back up, since there would be no way to push through it if I wanted a smooth return to D#.
I think it’s okay to have some things go by feel and ear instead of relying on a mechanism for everything, like Pete was suggesting just doing a slant to C# instead of having the half/full tone lower on string 2. I used to do that on my Stage One. |
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Bill Sutton
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Posted 28 Apr 2023 6:57 am
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Can the Schild half stop be fitted on A Emmons Legrande D10 and if so where can I get one. Thanks in advance.
Bill S. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Posted 28 Apr 2023 9:07 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Does that Mullen (or Schilld) mechanism allow for a smooth gliss in and out of C# on string 2, or is there a bump? |
I just got behind my G2 to try it out and I can get a totally smooth full step transition with the Mullen mechanism most of the time. The important factor is the speed of the move. If it's a moderate to fast move down or back up the whole step you can't tell there's a resistance bump in the middle. If it's a really slow squeeze down or back up it's really tough to get a completely smooth full step movement without a bit of a catch in the middle.
Also, I don't have any problem going from a full step down to catching and holding on the half step on the way back up. While a 2nd spring for the down to up movement might make it easier to find that mid point coming back up, it would really ruin the ability to smoothly go from down to up at just about any tempo. I put the Mullen half step mechanism on about 3 years ago and it's the best mod I've done to my G2.
For me it's really been a matter of how stiff I set the spring and practice, practice, practice 
_________________
Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 29 Apr 2023 7:20 am
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| Quote: |
| While a 2nd spring for the down to up movement might make it easier to find that mid point coming back up, it would really ruin the ability to smoothly go from down to up at just about any tempo. |
Thanks, Dennis. That’s what I was thinking. |
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Dennis Montgomery
From:
Western Washington
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Dave Campbell
From:
Nova Scotia, Canada
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Posted 30 Apr 2023 1:39 am
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| everytime i think about ditching the c# i listen to lloyd green. he's out there creating incredible things with his second string that virtually no one does. if you need some 2nd string lever practice, check out all the transcriptions on the lloyd green tribute page and pick a lick or two. |
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Ken Metcalf
From:
San Antonio Texas USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2023 5:16 am
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Depends on how much you use the C# in your playing.
| Pete Burak wrote: |
I took that C# change off of that lever, because, on the bandstand, I use the D note WAY more than the C#.
Now I can slam that lever from D#-to-D no problem (it also lowers string-9 from D-to-C#).
I will happily leave the licks associated with that string-2 D#-to-C# change to others (I don't have any half-stop feels anymore). |
_________________
MSA 12 String E9th/B6th Universal.
Little Walter PF-89.
Bunch of stomp boxes |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 30 Apr 2023 7:49 am
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I alternate between having the D/C# lower and just having a solid D note. 75% of the time, it's set to just lower to D.
My latest change has been to alter LKV; it now raises my 5th from B to D and I've found it surprisingly useful. Preferable, in fact, to skipping across to the second string. With this new pull, I can engage the A pedal, then LKV, release both or LKV then the A pedal, all within a chord.
So: there's my D note and I can adjust the 2nd to drop the full tone.
When my new 12 string D13th comes, that 6th tone (actually a B note rather than C#) will be available as an extra string between #4 and #6, so there's even less reason for lowering the 2nd to the 6th tone.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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