New Excel 12 String D13 Keyless Pedal Steel Guitar

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

There’s a small resonance there but I ignore it.

Lee Gauthier · From: Victoria, BC, Canada

Also D13 a player here. I have my A pedal with the extra B -> C raise on it. I find the C is really nice to have with AB down. My C pedal doesn't have the extra raise and I notice the sympathetic ring if I'm pick blocking, but it's less of an issue if I'm palm blocking everything.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Lee

I have planned to have the B to C raise added to my A pedal.

It's partly for the sympathetic ring but also because I foresee great possibilities with pedals down:no more reaching across to the 2nd to get that 4th note.

I would like an isolated B to C raise for an easy b7th without A and B pedals..

Still a few months to wait for my new guitar, though.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

B to C on pedal seems pretty cool. Gotta go see if a have an extra crank in the tool box. Got one but have to braze two short pull rods together so should have the B to C on A pedal tomorrow night.

LKV will give you the isolated B to C but it also raises the 3rd string.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Got these replies from Peterson Tuner on using the STroboPLUS HD and StroboStomp for the D-13 copedant:

STrobPLUS HD:

The StroboPLUS HD has an independent Root control so you can change the root of a Sweetener (Global default root is "C").

To change the root on the SE9 Sweetener on the StroboPLUS:

1. Select the SE9 Sweetener
2. Hold the selector dial in and rotate it until the Note indicator says C - which is the default root.
3. Release the selector knob and rotate it to the root note Bb (two semitones downward shift from E to D).

The temperament name will now flash alternating between the root selection (Bb) and temperament (SE9)..
The root will revert back to C whenever you change the Temperament/Sweetener or restart the StroboPlus, it is not saved to memory.

To change the root on the SC6 Sweetener on the StroboPLUS:

1. Select the SC6 Sweetener
2. Hold the selector dial in and rotate it until the Note indicator says C - which is the default root.
3. Release the selector knob and rotate it to the root note D (two semitones shift from C to D).

The temperament name will now flash alternating between the root selection (D) and temperament (SC6).
Again, don't forget that the root will revert back to C whenever you change the Temperament/Sweetener or restart the StroboPlus, it's not saved to memory.

StroboStomp HD:

No root change function on the StroboStomp HD, only on the StroboPLUS HD or StroboPLUS HDC.

However, the StroboStomp HD does have a "Drop/Capo" control - for aiding those who are not familiar with note names other than those of the standard tuning of the open strings but wish to use a "dropped" or capo'd tuning and don't want to learn the new note names Winking

.

Each increment equals one semitone or one half step up or down depending on whether it is a positive or negative increment value.
You can use the "Drop/Capo" function on the StroboStomp HD to transpose the Sweetener/temperament you're using to another key although the note names and the cent offsets are bound together, while the target pitch is shifted behind the scenes.

The default is 0 (zero).
Here is how it works:

-6=Three whole steps down / Three whole-tones down
-5=Two and a half steps down / Five semitones down
-4=Two whole steps down / Two whole-tones down
-3=One and a half steps down / Three semitones down
-2=One whole step down / One whole-tone down
-1=One half step down / One semitone down
0=Standard or default tuning
+1=One half step up / One semitone up
+2=One whole step up / One whole-tone up
+3=One and a half steps up / Three semitones up
+4=Two whole steps up / Two whole-tones up
+5=Two and a half steps up / Five semitones up

Again, don't forget that the note name along with its cent offset is transposed, so to set SE9 to a D root for example, dial in a Drop/Capo value of -2 (minus two) and tune using the standard E9 notes (the actual result will be D9).

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

That 'isolated C':

My RKR moves the 2nd, 10th and 11th. I wonder if I could put that B to C on that lever.

The important thing is to have 3,4,5,6 untouched (except for when the A and B pedals are engaged) so I'd get either a G sus4 or a full D7 on those strings.

I shall dwell on it at hemodialysis today! Smile

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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Lee Gauthier · From: Victoria, BC, Canada

I coped Johnny Cox's idea (and I'm sure others) of having a C on string 2 instead of C#, but in lieu of that does you get mostly what you want with a C# -> C change on your string 2?

That said I do think I'd like a B -> C on a lever if I had more room.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I tuned the Excel using the Peterson StroboStomp HD root control using the SE9 and SP9 10 string settings for all 12 strings and all the typical E9th pedals and levers. I then tuned the C6 type pedals and knees by ear and it sounds great! Went through all the open strings and pedals/knees in about 15 minutes including the by ear parts.

I did have to lower pickup from the high strings and now have a pretty even volume across all 12 strings.

Lee Gauthier · From: Victoria, BC, Canada

I might have to give tuning that way a shot. I've just been tuning everything to meantone and that works pretty well.

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Added 8 sound samples to my web site on 1/24/2023!

https://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%20D13%20S12%20Keyless/Excel%20D13%20S12%20Keyless.html

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Very good, Greg - thanks.

I'm trying to figure your LKV. Is that a Chalker-esque pull?

I'm seriously thinking of losing the raise on 1 and 2 (to D and F#). It's a nice effect and the dissonant maj7 with pedals down is pretty, but I will just keep the lower raise (E to F#) and have the same harmonic effect in the mid-range.

Having that B string (and the B-C raise) in the middle of the tuning opens a lot of doors and makes me wonder about the 2nd string. No need now to lower it a whole-step, surely?

It's the low end that I'm looking forward to, though.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I use the lower part of LKV to get a dominant 7th or with for example pedal 6 to get a 4th note. That part of LKV is pretty standard. Same as the A to Bb change on C6. The rest of the Knee I have no idea about yet!

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I added a complete song to the Excel D13 page and left a link to the rhythm track there also:

No One Will Ever Know

Daniel McKee · From: Corinth Mississippi

Not to take away from the thread but if anyone gets this tuning on a 25.5 inch scale Excel Id like to hear your thoughts. I'm basically sold on Excel because of the short wait time but would probably go long scale.

Greg, I enjoyed hearing the full song you posted. I imagine it takes a minute to get adjusted to the new grips.

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

Well done, Greg! It doesn't sound as though that extra B string is tripping you up at all.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Knowing that a piano player has to learn 12 sets of grips with tons of variation led me to just practice the major triad grips for a few minutes each day. Then it become reflex and hinders your playing less.

It often takes me a few months to get the sound out of the guitar that I am looking for. Adjustments to knee levers, effects, pickup heights, cables, amp settings, copedant and seating are just a few things that have to be played with. I generally shoot for a Sho-Bud Pro II sound and eventually will get there.

Johnny Cox · Posted 30 Jan 2023 1:41 pm

Roger Rettig · From: Naples, FL

I see what you mean. RKR is vital the way it is.

I shall have to find another spot for that change.
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Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I've updated the Excel D13 page with some sounds from my Axe FX3 setup including stereo reverb, Leslie, Enhancer, Flanger, Phaser and a compressor set on "quack" for effect. A bit more mellow sound this time. I also lowered the pickup on the lower strings about 1/16" which had minimal effect on the volume but really got rid of the low string boominess. One of the sound files shows off some of the extended range of this tuning.

Updated Excel D13 Page

New Sound Files:

Low String Sounds

Stereo Reverb

A Few AXE FX3 Effects

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Update with AXE FX3 using the Fender Bassman model. The first sound file features use of pedals 1,2,5,6 and 7 all in the same clip.

Pedal 1,25,6, and 7

More Fender Bassman Sounds

Here's some of the AXE screens that can be used with this amp (click to enlarge):

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Here's another riff that shows the LKV, RKL and pedal 4 in a few different combinations. Near the end you will hear a two familiar Chalker uses of the LKV knee lever changes.

https://www.gregcutshaw.com/Excel%20D13%20S12%20Keyless/RKL,%20LKV,%20Pedals%204,5,6%20and%208%20Chalker%20Sounds.mp3

Bill McCloskey · From: Nanuet, NY

Loved those low tones at the end. Thanks for sharing all this. It is great being able to hear how this steel sounds and hear you put it through its paces. I can imagine this thing must really cut through in a band setting.
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Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

Thanks Bill. Haven't played out in years but it sure would have been nice having something this light to carry around back then!

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

I started going over Johnny Cox's videos on this tuning and some of what he is showing us is starting to sink in.

One this is the location of the left knee levers. Where mine are located I can reach all the floor pedals but it's a stretch in some cases. I am considering moving all 4 of my left knee levers over three crossbar holes to the right. That equates to exactly one floor pedal spacing and will just make the guitar more relaxing to play with the rightmost floor pedals while keeping my left foot well in range of the leftmost floor pedals. Something to think about if you are ordering a new guitar. The pull rods are 2 MM and if you need to thread them use a HSS 2mm x 0.4 Metric Die, Right Hand Thread.

This setup has a full implementation of the Franklin pedal change but the change is split amongst two knee levers and one floor pedal. All of these knees/pedals have multiple other useful functions but having them split allows for more variations in their use. On the other hand it can be more challenging to actuate them fast and time them correctly.

In the following sound file you will here the simplest use of the Franklin pedal, mostly with two strings moving on all the standard E9th major triad grips. LKL, RKR and P4 are used to make this happen.

D13 Tuning Franklin Pedal Sounds

Greg Cutshaw · From: Corry, PA, USA

After a few more days of playing this guitar I realized that I could reach all the knee lever and pedal combinations but with a bit of stretching. Looking at the setup it seemed that using LKV with Pedal 6 was a common thing to do and it would be easier to do that if I moved all the knees over to the right the equivalent of one floor pedal spacing. That's also exactly equal to three holes over in the rear frame. Being a keyless with a small body I did have to grind down a few bushings and bell cranks to get everything to fit. Three of the knee levers just required shortening the pull rods but the LKR pulls off an inverted bell crank and then threads into a pivot/retainer that negates the need for an allen screw in the retainer. So those two pulls rods have to be shortened and then rethreaded with a 2 mm x 0.4 mm die. No die available as McMaster-Carr but I found one right away on Amazon. On the changer end of these two pull rods, the nylon tuner is fused solid onto the pull rod. Turning the nylon tuner at the changer then threads the rod in and out of the retainer on the bell crank. The guitar setup seems perfect now with all combinations of pedals and knee levers being easily accessed. Hopefully the pictures below with show the before and after placement of the knee levers.

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