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Topic: Lap Steel Issues |
Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 3:43 pm |
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I recently decided to change tuning on a lap steel to Open D. This required significantly heavier strings than what were on there. I had the nut slots opened up to accommodate the heavier strings but a couple issues cropped up.
First I was getting a sitar sound on the high D string but only while using the bar. Played open the string sounded fine. I added a piece of foam underneath the string at the bridge which stopped the sitar sound but I’m wondering about a better solution.
The other problem was a vibration when playing the low open D string. I notice that if I tune the string down to C and put enough pressure on the string behind the nut to get back to a D note the vibration goes away. Do I need some kind of a string retainer to eliminate this vibration?
Any help on these issues would be greatly appreciated. |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 5:01 pm
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The low D string probably needs the slot angle increased. the thick strings can be problematic since they are rather inflexible.
The high D probably has a similar thing happening at the bridge or the nut or both.
_________________
Duesenberg Fairytale
1949 Supro Supreme
1950 National New Yorker
2008 Highland Baritone Weissenborn
2020 Highland New Yorker.
2020 Highland Mohan Veena
2021 Highland Weissencone |
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Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 6:22 pm
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| Jeff Highland wrote: |
The low D string probably needs the slot angle increased. the thick strings can be problematic since they are rather inflexible.
The high D probably has a similar thing happening at the bridge or the nut or both. |
The high D sounds fine open so I’m pretty sure the bridge is the issue. I’m using an .016 for that string now and I had an .015 on it before and had no problems. I have a .060 string on there for the low D. Maybe I’ll try a .058 for the low D and go back to an .015 for the high D and see if that solves the issues.
Thank you for your help |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 9:45 pm
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It probably just needs to go back to whoever enlarged the slots to finesse them and angle the high d down at the bridge end. 2 minutes work.
_________________
Duesenberg Fairytale
1949 Supro Supreme
1950 National New Yorker
2008 Highland Baritone Weissenborn
2020 Highland New Yorker.
2020 Highland Mohan Veena
2021 Highland Weissencone |
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Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 9:56 pm
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| Jeff Highland wrote: |
| It probably just needs to go back to whoever enlarged the slots to finesse them and angle the high d down at the bridge end. 2 minutes work. |
Looking at the photo do you think there is much break angle to be gained on the low D by adjusting the nut slot?
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 26 Dec 2022 11:06 pm
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It's NOT a matter of gaining break angle. It's making sure that the string "breaks" cleanly from the fretboard side of the nut (and pickup side of the bridge) If it contacts further back it will buzz on the bottom or sides of the slot.
_________________
Duesenberg Fairytale
1949 Supro Supreme
1950 National New Yorker
2008 Highland Baritone Weissenborn
2020 Highland New Yorker.
2020 Highland Mohan Veena
2021 Highland Weissencone |
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Bill Groner
From:
QUAKERTOWN, PA
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 1:46 am
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From the side picture it looks like the string breaks where the flat and the relief angle meet. When I make a nut I put a much steeper angle on the and make the flat portion pretty thin so the string doesn't have much to sit in. I sometimes take a String file and put more relief in the slot itself so there is just a small band left where the string seats. I'm not sure but if breaks that far back, as shown, won't it throw off the scale length and probably buzz?
_________________
Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40
Last edited by Bill Groner on 27 Dec 2022 10:21 am; edited 3 times in total |
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Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 2:12 am
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| Jeff Highland wrote: |
| It's NOT a matter of gaining break angle. It's making sure that the string "breaks" cleanly from the fretboard side of the nut (and pickup side of the bridge) If it contacts further back it will buzz on the bottom or sides of the slot. |
One of the things I did to try to determine the problem with the low D string was to lower the pitch down to C and apply pressure behind the nut until it returned to a D note. This made the problem go away and is what led me to believe insufficient break angle was the issue. That’s what got me thinking of a retainer for that string, which I’d really prefer to avoid.
I currently only know of one guitar tech in my area and he’s a young guy trying to make a go of it with his own shop. He made the brass nut on this guitar slotted with lighter strings for C6 tuning. He also opened up the slots for the heavier open D strings I have on there now. When I pointed out the vibration issues he just kind of shrugged. I don’t want to discourage or risk alienating him over this so I’ve ordered some nut files and will attempt reshaping the trouble areas on the nut and bridge as you suggest.
Thanks again for your help. |
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Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 3:08 am
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| Bill Groner wrote: |
| From the side picture it looks like the string breaks where the flat and the relief angle meet. When I make a nut I put a much steeper angle on the and make the flat portion pretty thin so the string doesn't have much to sit in. I sometimes take a String file and put more relief in the slot itself so there is just a small band left where the string seats. I'm not sure but if breaks that far back, as shown, won't it throw off the scale length and probably buzz? |
Well, what I’m currently thinking of is angling the low D slot down a bit more while leaving the leading edge toward the fingerboard alone. I don’t know a whole lot about this stuff but I am trying to learn. |
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Bill Groner
From:
QUAKERTOWN, PA
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 3:31 am
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You are heading in the right direction. I had the same problem with the low C on the last one I built. Sneak up on it. You can always take a bit more out, but can't put it back in.
_________________
Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40 |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 6:38 am
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| you have no angle at the bridge. the strings are sitting on a flat surface. thats going to give you the sitar effect. if you use a needle file to cut the slot, then angle the cut to eliminate the noise. |
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Bill Groner
From:
QUAKERTOWN, PA
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 6:56 am
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2 Bills can't be wrong!
_________________
Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40 |
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Jeff Highland
From:
New South Wales, Australia
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 1:41 pm
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| Bill Hatcher wrote: |
| you have no angle at the bridge. the strings are sitting on a flat surface. thats going to give you the sitar effect. if you use a needle file to cut the slot, then angle the cut to eliminate the noise. |
Yes the string is probably resting on the rear edge, and then the weight of the bar moves the string down slightly so it buzzes on the frent edge,
Solution cut a slot angled back to the string terminations.
_________________
Duesenberg Fairytale
1949 Supro Supreme
1950 National New Yorker
2008 Highland Baritone Weissenborn
2020 Highland New Yorker.
2020 Highland Mohan Veena
2021 Highland Weissencone |
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Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 27 Dec 2022 5:28 pm
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| Thank you all for the tips and suggestions. I have developed a plan based on the suggestions here. It may take a little while before I get this done but I will post back when it is done and I have some results to report. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2022 5:03 pm
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Note that conventional wisdom suggests that the string should be half into the slot, so only half the string protrudes above the nut...that way the slot grabs the string and might prevent the buzz...
_________________
www.facebook.com/swingaliband & a few more....
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2022 5:57 pm
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| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
| Note that conventional wisdom suggests that the string should be half into the slot, so only half the string protrudes above the nut...that way the slot grabs the string and might prevent the buzz... |
Just judging by eye I’d say about half of the string protrudes above the nut. I’m exactly sure how to measure this.
Thanks for chipping in. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2022 7:16 pm
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maybe the photo its misleading..but that looks like nowhere near half..
_________________
www.facebook.com/swingaliband & a few more....
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2022 7:44 pm
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| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
maybe the photo its misleading..but that looks like nowhere near half..
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Right. The strings currently sit on top of the bridge. My current plan is to epoxy a piece of bone shaped on top like a typical acoustic guitar saddle to the back side of the bridge. This is an import guitar and my guess is that the metal underneath the chrome finish on the existing bridge is likely pot metal. I decided I didn’t like the idea of slotting or notching it. |
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Steve Lipsey
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 28 Dec 2022 8:06 pm
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wow...I"M SORRY....that half-way in thing is for the nut...I actually don't know if it also applies to the bridge...aeems reasonable, but I don't specifically know.
_________________
www.facebook.com/swingaliband & a few more....
Williams S10s, Milkman Pedal Steel Mini & "The Amp"
Ben Bonham Resos, 1954 Oahu Diana, 1936 Oahu Parlor |
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Bill Groner
From:
QUAKERTOWN, PA
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Posted 29 Dec 2022 4:54 am
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| Scott Vita wrote: |
| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
maybe the photo its misleading..but that looks like nowhere near half..
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Right. The strings currently sit on top of the bridge. My current plan is to epoxy a piece of bone shaped on top like a typical acoustic guitar saddle to the back side of the bridge. This is an import guitar and my guess is that the metal underneath the chrome finish on the existing bridge is likely pot metal. I decided I didn’t like the idea of slotting or notching it. |
That looks to me like a piece of angle aluminum, not pot metal. Many bridges and nuts are made just like yours and work fine.
I have my doubts about epoxying a piece of bone to the back of yours. Maybe for starters, take a piece of fine grit paper or if you have a small, fine, stone put a small radius across the back edge of the bridge and polish it up. You would be surprised how small changes, make big improvements.
_________________
Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40 |
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Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2022 5:46 am
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| Bill Groner wrote: |
| Scott Vita wrote: |
| Steve Lipsey wrote: |
maybe the photo its misleading..but that looks like nowhere near half..
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Right. The strings currently sit on top of the bridge. My current plan is to epoxy a piece of bone shaped on top like a typical acoustic guitar saddle to the back side of the bridge. This is an import guitar and my guess is that the metal underneath the chrome finish on the existing bridge is likely pot metal. I decided I didn’t like the idea of slotting or notching it. |
That looks to me like a piece of angle aluminum, not pot metal. Many bridges and nuts are made just like yours and work fine.
I have my doubts about epoxying a piece of bone to the back of yours. Maybe for starters, take a piece of fine grit paper or if you have a small, fine, stone put a small radius across the back edge of the bridge and polish it up. You would be surprised how small changes, make big improvements. |
Thanks. I’m away from home at the moment but now I’m curious. I believe aluminum is not magnetic. Would a magnet test be a good indicator of what that bridge is made of? |
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Scott Vita
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 29 Dec 2022 7:10 am
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| Bill Groner wrote: |
That looks to me like a piece of angle aluminum, not pot metal. Many bridges and nuts are made just like yours and work fine. I have my doubts about epoxying a piece of bone to the back of yours. Maybe for starters, take a piece of fine grit paper or if you have a small, fine, stone put a small radius across the back edge of the bridge and polish it up. You would be surprised how small changes, make big improvements. |
I tested the bridge and it reacts strongly to a magnet. I guess this means it’s not aluminum?
In any case I may give your suggestion a try over the weekend. I’ve abandoned the idea of using a piece of bone. I did see these which look really nice and don’t seem all that expensive for what they are.
https://www.rukavinaguitars.com/bridge_nut_sets.html |
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Bill Groner
From:
QUAKERTOWN, PA
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Posted 29 Dec 2022 8:37 am
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I guess your bridge is made from steel then with a plating on it not aluminum. Those Rukavina bridges are very nice. I see you have SD Pup in it, and with that Rukavina bridge, you should be all set.
_________________
Currently own, 6 Groner-tone lap steels, one 1953 Alamo Lap steel, Roland Cube, Fender Champion 40 |
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