| Author |
Topic: Push/Pull knee lever doesn't change pitch |
Daniel Paugh
From:
Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 30 Nov 2022 9:17 am |
|
Hi y'all, I'm at my wits end trying to figure this out. I'll get some pictures up as well, but on my push/pull PSG, my LKR does not lower the pitch of my high e string at all. I've tried putting on new strings and I've adjusted the rods so that there's more than enough travel in the lever, the low e string lowers as it should and my LKL raises both my e strings as it should.
Please pardon my ignorance of the terminology, I'm just starting out, but I've noticed that although it seems like everything is moving from underneath the body, when I look at the peg where the ball-end of my string is attached, it doesn't appear to move up or down like the other strings do when their respective levers are pressed. I'm hoping that piece of information may be able to narrow down what's going on and what I could try to fix it. Any suggestions?
Thanks everyone
 |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 1 Dec 2022 8:44 am
|
|
I'm going to bump this up, in the hopes that one of our pedal steel guitar mechanics can help.
It appears that a bell-crank has slipped. I see one that is leaning over at an angle.
~Lee |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 1 Dec 2022 9:00 am
|
|
| Lee Baucum wrote: |
It appears that a bell-crank has slipped. I see one that is leaning over at an angle.
~Lee |
With that very limited photo, it appears to me that that is the LKL raise and I'm thinking that if the lever were not fallen-over, that crank would be sitting upright.
It feels futile trying to troubleshoot when so little effort is given by providing some photos.
I know nothing of this guitar.
On an Emmons push pull, there needs to be enough slack in the raise to allow the movement of the lower. If the lower pulls the raise collar into its bellcrank, it will not lower any more.
I have absolutely no way of telling if this applies to this guitar or to the way this guitar is set up. |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 1 Dec 2022 9:39 am
|
|
Yeah. I guess it may depend on how that knee-lever is attached to the axle.
There is something showing between the "legs" of that lever. I wonder if the lever swings around freely and then comes in contact with that little device, causing the axle to rotate.
Not exactly an optimal way to accomplish things!
Hopefully, it screws into the end of the lever.
~Lee |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 1 Dec 2022 10:28 am
|
|
| Everything I'm looking at looks to me like it's all-pull. |
|
|
|
Lee Baucum
From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
|
Posted 1 Dec 2022 10:32 am
|
|
| Jon Light wrote: |
| Everything I'm looking at looks to me like it's all-pull. |
Y yo también. |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 1 Dec 2022 10:38 am
|
|
| Because of the totally unfamiliar way the rods-into-the-changer is rigged, I'm sort of stopped in my tracks. I just don't know what's going on there and without getting my hands on that, I've got nothing. |
|
|
|
Daniel Paugh
From:
Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 3 Dec 2022 12:14 pm
|
|
| Jon Light wrote: |
| Lee Baucum wrote: |
It appears that a bell-crank has slipped. I see one that is leaning over at an angle.
~Lee |
With that very limited photo, it appears to me that that is the LKL raise and I'm thinking that if the lever were not fallen-over, that crank would be sitting upright.
It feels futile trying to troubleshoot when so little effort is given by providing some photos.
I know nothing of this guitar.
On an Emmons push pull, there needs to be enough slack in the raise to allow the movement of the lower. If the lower pulls the raise collar into its bellcrank, it will not lower any more.
I have absolutely no way of telling if this applies to this guitar or to the way this guitar is set up. |
I'm really sorry about that, I was away from home for work and just got back to my computer and steel. Are there any more photos I can take for you? On my first (novice) inspection, I was under the impression that this was an all-pull guitar, as a couple others have mentioned. However after sending some photos to a retired local mechanic, his thoughts were that it is a push/pull, although he doesn't recognize the setup either.
I'm not sure if I'm correct in thinking this, but from what I've read, on most push/pulls, the raise and lower actions shares one rod, if that makes sense. However on this guitar, there are two separate rods for eg. the 4th string raise pedal and the 4th string lower knee lever. The action at the bell crank, in my opinion, seemed to mimic the diagram of an all-pull on the carter website, but I could be wrong. I hope this has provided some more info, if there's anything else I can look for I definitely will |
|
|
|
Daniel Paugh
From:
Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 3 Dec 2022 12:18 pm
|
|
| Jon Light wrote: |
| Because of the totally unfamiliar way the rods-into-the-changer is rigged, I'm sort of stopped in my tracks. I just don't know what's going on there and without getting my hands on that, I've got nothing. |
Are you referring to where the rods enter the changer at the set screw? From fiddling with it, those set screws are held into place at the changer, and the screw tightens down on the end of the rod entering into it. You may be talking about something more complicated than that, if there's any more info I can provide just let me know. Sorry, I was away from home working for the last few days and just got back home. Appreciate your reply
edited to add: I originally thought this was an all-pull as well, because of the action at the changer. I sent some pictures to a retired local mechanic and his thoughts were that it's a push/pull, although he doesn't recognize the setup |
|
|
|
Daniel Paugh
From:
Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 3 Dec 2022 12:24 pm
|
|
| Lee Baucum wrote: |
I'm going to bump this up, in the hopes that one of our pedal steel guitar mechanics can help.
It appears that a bell-crank has slipped. I see one that is leaning over at an angle.
~Lee |
That may have been my doing. I tried to set everything up from the get-go with a new set of strings (because there was a time when everything was working on this guitar!) and in trying to get my pedals to reach the right pitch I had to adjust the set screws on some of the rods to push completely against the bell crank like that. Ah, I may be in over my head here. I appreciate your replies |
|
|
|
Daniel Paugh
From:
Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 3 Dec 2022 12:34 pm
|
|
| Jon Light wrote: |
| Lee Baucum wrote: |
It appears that a bell-crank has slipped. I see one that is leaning over at an angle.
~Lee |
With that very limited photo, it appears to me that that is the LKL raise and I'm thinking that if the lever were not fallen-over, that crank would be sitting upright.
It feels futile trying to troubleshoot when so little effort is given by providing some photos.
I know nothing of this guitar.
On an Emmons push pull, there needs to be enough slack in the raise to allow the movement of the lower. If the lower pulls the raise collar into its bellcrank, it will not lower any more.
I have absolutely no way of telling if this applies to this guitar or to the way this guitar is set up. |
To my very untrained eye, it seems like something is going awry at the changer finger. I say this because while the 4th string changer finger itself moves when the knee lever is activated, I don't see any movement of the ball-end of the string where it hooks onto the peg on the top side of the guitar, which I do see when other, working pedals and levers are activated. That makes me think that the problem could be taking place somewhere in the changer finger itself |
|
|
|
Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
|
Posted 3 Dec 2022 1:22 pm
|
|
If I sounded cranky it's because I was cranky. Sorry. I'm basically frustrated because I'd like to help but I just can't. I expect that with it in my hands it would take little time to sort things out. But without hands-on, without just feeling things out and letting the guitar talk to me, it's just not within my ability.
Unless you can find your own eureka moment with it (and steel guitars are not so very complicated machines so that's not far fetched) you really need to get it into the hands of someone with some experience. Sorry. |
|
|
|
Brint Hannay
From:
Maryland, USA
|
Posted 3 Dec 2022 4:35 pm
|
|
| In the picture of the changer from the top side, I notice that the screw at the back side of the changer on the 4th string sticks out more than the others. Just an observation--I have no idea if it is significant. I can't make any sense of the underside changer pic! |
|
|
|
Daniel Paugh
From:
Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 4 Dec 2022 10:54 am
|
|
| Jon Light wrote: |
If I sounded cranky it's because I was cranky. Sorry. I'm basically frustrated because I'd like to help but I just can't. I expect that with it in my hands it would take little time to sort things out. But without hands-on, without just feeling things out and letting the guitar talk to me, it's just not within my ability.
Unless you can find your own eureka moment with it (and steel guitars are not so very complicated machines so that's not far fetched) you really need to get it into the hands of someone with some experience. Sorry. |
No worries at all, I appreciate your reply in any case! I definitely understand, I feel like I'm slowly getting an understanding of what each component does, especially going through troubleshooting this. No luck finding a mechanic in Oklahoma City so far, but I'll be working in Ft. Worth the next couple weeks and reached out to Lamb's Music, who I found online, and they said they could take a look at it. So hopefully we'll have some answers soon, I'll keep this thread updated |
|
|
|
Daniel Paugh
From:
Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 4 Dec 2022 10:57 am
|
|
| Brint Hannay wrote: |
| In the picture of the changer from the top side, I notice that the screw at the back side of the changer on the 4th string sticks out more than the others. Just an observation--I have no idea if it is significant. I can't make any sense of the underside changer pic! |
That was my attempt at loosening the hex screw as far as I could to let it lower, to no effect unfortunately. Are there any particular aspects I could provide some more info on re: the changer that might help you make more sense of it? I'll be working in Ft. Worth for the next couple weeks and found a shop there that can take a look at it, so hopefully we'll have some answers soon |
|
|
|
Bengt Erlandsen
From:
Brekstad, NORWAY
|
Posted 5 Dec 2022 2:52 pm
|
|
Since the 8th string lower is working  . What does this changerfinger mechanism do when its rod moves compared to what the 4th string changerfinger mechanism doesnt do  when its rod moves? Assuming that mechanism of both 4th and 8th finger are built the same way. If they move the same, they should do the same.
From the pictures it is kinda hard to tell with 100% certainty exactly what those two rows of screws at the back actually are controlling.
B.Erlandsen
Zumsteel S12extE9 7+7 |
|
|
|
