New device that removes noise from single coil pickups

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

ajm thanks for your ideas and opinions. Where audio noise is coming from can at times be as mysterious as a black hole. I need to remind everyone that I am not selling anything. I am not selling the PG-P, only relating my experience, and Gene Watson's band experience with it.
Also, not selling the Bill Lawrence Q-Filter. Also, not selling the filter boards from China on Amazon. With that said, I respect ajm's observations. ajm, you have pointed out the things you are convinced that are useless. Can you tell us some things you have found useful for removing the different sources of noise? Your observations and ideas might be very helpful.

Bob Sykes · From: North Carolina

Keith, I did read the description and agree. I can see no reason why one couldn't make a PG-P comparable powerline filter with this kit. I can say for sure that some folks do not know the difference in L-N-G and should not be building these things. The cost of imported cheap electronics never ceases to amaze me too. One way they save money here is by circumventing (expen$ive) regulatory compliance approval$. There's probably no surge protection included. When used, it's typically separate and on the line side of the filter. You want those clamping devices to shunt high energy (lighting induced) surges on the front end. Take a look at spacing of the foil on the PCBs. Unprotected AC traces should be at least 3mm apart to avoid flash-over. More is better.

ajm, You're right that the PG-P is nothing special but I would bet that it does include some sort of line filtering and surge protection (as well as AC line check lites). Plenty of room inside for all that. I haven't seen the inside of it. I take their claims about filtering and surge protection at face value. I do not buy their claims of "Control type: remote control" or "Refrigerant R 410A" Doesn't anyone proof-read this stuff Rolling Eyes

I also haven't seen the inside of the Furman units, but based on your description expect the line filter used is similar to the "can" pictured. Hard to quantify "not fancy" but they work. This is a mature technology. Note the schematic on the label. Not a complicated circuit. Also note the expen$ive Regulatory Compliance marks on the label.

Regarding power strips in general: The cheapest ones have no protection. If you take one of those and connect a single varistor costing $1 across L-N you can call it "surge protection" (DM only). For $2 you can have DM and CM surge protection. If you want to add noise filtering you get north of $30 quickly. Really good ones >$100 don't look a lot different on the outside to Joe Public.

What's an "AC Regulator" strip?

I'll reserve judgement on the Q-filter. Usually noise suppression is supposed to tone transparent. This thing obviously changes the guitar tone, but if it makes the tone "better" then it's a win-win.

Please do not let that last comment lead down any tone rabbit-holes. Smile

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Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Bob, it is refreshing reading your comments. Refreshing, meaning you know what you are talking about. Thanks!

Bob Sykes · From: North Carolina

Keith, Thank you for your vote of confidence. I guess decades of working full time in electrical noise has left its mark on me. My family has told me that years of being subjected to pedal steel noise has left a mark on them. Oh Well

I may have misspoke in my previous post saying that the conventional passive LCR powerline filters are state of the art. They are however industry standard, cost effective and work well.

20 or 30 years ago I was evaluating a bunch of line filters and one stuck out in particular. It was pitched as an "active tracking line filter". As the name implies, it contained electronics that actively tracked the incoming AC and "corrected" any deviations from a pure sine waveform. ISTR it was 60Hz specific. It was about 3 times the size of a conventional can filter and cost over 10X as much. Performance exceeded all the passives but the company rejected it purely on cost. I think it was branded ISO TRAK or something similar but a quick net search doesn't turn up anything. I haven't seen anything similar since then, so maybe the technology or the company didn't take off. I have one in a box-o-parts somewhere around the house. When I find it I will send you more details. Hopefully I saved the spec sheet with it.
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Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Bob, please send my your email. Would like to work with you on some ideas. My email is hiltonkeith43@gmail.com

ajm · From: Los Angeles

Bob Sykes: We could sit at the bar and I could probably find a different way to word a couple of things that you said, but in reality I can't find anything significant to argue about anything that you said.

Going off of memory, that LCR filter picture that you posted is what is in my Furmans.
There may be a Varistor/surge/spike protector in there, I don't remember.
(Hint to others: That is why at some point whenever I take something apart I now take a couple of photographs of it for future reference.)

"What's an "AC Regulator" strip?"
That may have been the wrong terminology to use, or maybe not.
Furman and other companies also make strips/units that actually regulate the AC voltage in addition to filtering/etc.
They are more expensive.
Also, they are NOT what is known as a Variac. That is something different.

ajm · From: Los Angeles

Keith Hilton wrote: "Can you tell us some things you have found useful for removing the different sources of noise? Your observations and ideas might be very helpful."

You're looking to me for guidance and wisdom and knowledge?
YOU ARE DOOMED!!!!!!!!!!! ;>))

Seriously, my less than $0.02 worth.........

There can be several sources of noise or hum. Once again, I mention them separately because they are not the same.
Here is what I have found that I can control.

The absolute #1 source in my experience that I can do anything about: The pickups. Specifically, single coil pickups. Once again, IME and IMO this is the #1 thing. If your signal starts out with noise right from the guitar, it's not going to get any better as you move down the line.
For the last 10-15 years any guitars that I have, if they didn't have them already, got noise cancelling/reducing pickups slapped in them.
The first guitar to go under the knife was a Fender Clapton Strat with Lace Sensors. An important note: The Lace Sensor Golds are single coils and are noise REDUCED, not noise cancelling.
For about a week I had two noise cancelling pups (Dimarzio Areas) and one Lace in the guitar at the same time. Side by side the difference was like night and day.
It was not the tone of the Laces that I didn't like, it was the noise.

Effects: I have had effects add both noise and hum (once again, they are not the same thing). Even at that, I have only had maybe 2-3 instances, and they were all HUM, not noise. To solve effects problems I have done a variety of things. Effects issues are a whole nuther book unto themselves.
All of my experience has been with floor pedals, old school analog. In general, IME and IMO most effects made in the last 20-30 years are not that noisy, unless you are using a LOT of gain.
I do have a couple of Boss NS-2 noise suppressors, but they are rarely used as they are not often required.

The next area where I had a HUM problem was: House/Facilities grounding.
In my case it was very subtle and very low level, so low that I actually discovered it by accident.
The end solution involved my house not having any grounded outlets.
I ran a couple of outlets' ground connections to a water pipe under the floor nearby, and that was that.
Caution: If you decide to do this, make sure that your outlets have the L and N wired properly.
It has been said before: Go to Home Depot or wherever and buy one of the little outlet checkers with the lights on them for about $10. Especially if you are out playing in bars and such.

AC line noise: Maybe I've been lucky, but I haven't had any issues with this.

Other sources: Even with noise cancelling pups and grounded outlets, there are times when I can hear very very low level bleeps and blips and whatever coming through. Not often, but sometimes. Strangely enough, I can also hear them on my land line phone from time to time as well. That tends to make me think that this is something that I probably can only solve by moving. Which isn't going to happen. Once again, they are very faint and low level and not always there. I don't know if this is coming from the air, or the AC line, or both. Keep in mind that I have a Furman strip that everything is plugged into.

Whew.
That's my take on it.
We're all interested to see what you come up with in your endeavors.

ajm · From: Los Angeles

Ok, time for a break and a little comic relief.

Noise cancelling pickups.
What is the operative word in that phrase that stands out?

Yep, you guessed it.
And yet, out of maybe 20 bazillion demos on Youtube for various versions of these, I have only seen ONE where the guy actually SHADDUP and stopped playing and actually made a point of demoing this feature.
A few minutes of playing, with the noiseless demo at about 5:00.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwubC7G0NZM

Noise gates/suppressors.
Here's a short video demoing one of these.
(You gotta promise not to laugh, Ok?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDzNsFjEk1E

Bob Sykes · From: North Carolina

ajm, I'd enjoy some tech-talk at the bar with you. That's how we learn. We're saying the same thing differently here on most things.

I looked at some Furman AV power gear and it is as you described. They have some power strips with Filtering and Surge Suppression. The A/V rack mount strips are similarly protected. If you step up to the Prestige series, you get AC line regulation. They use an auto-transformer for this which is an intelligent (uP controlled) variac, so transformer heavy. Not the same as the manual variacs many of us have on our workbench. +1 on have some kind of AC line checker on the gig.

I would define noise as "any undesirable signal" and include Mains Power Related Noise (aka Hum). Noise is also subjective. When I was a teenager, my dad told me "that's not music, that's just noise" when I was watching Jimi on TV one night.

We agree that hum is the biggest noise problem for guitarists. That's a big bucket, and brings us back around to the OP subject. Sure the Bill Lawrence device alters the guitar sound, but so do HUMbuckers when compared to those noise-prone single coils. Some would say the humbucker is a tone improvement.
There's no perfect solution but more than one pretty good solution. I may have to try some noise cancelling pups but I really haven't had any problem with my gold lace pups in my strat-plus. I did put EMGs in my tele to solve hum. They changed the tone. Perhaps Keith will come up with something that reduces noise and improves tone.

Those bleeps and blips are likely Radio Frequency noise. RF is inaudible of course but if it finds a way to get de-modulated, you'll hear it. Leave a smart phone on top of an old Fender tube amp for a while and you'll hear something similar.

I'll go check those videos.
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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I like the 705s on my two guitars; but, I would love to go back to single coil pickups...
if only...
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There are only two options as I see it.
Either I'm right, or there is a sinister conspiracy to conceal the fact that I'm right.

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Brian Lee · From: Washington, USA

Dave Mudgett's experience with the PG-P line conditioner reminds me of a similar result I had when using a line conditioner. Thought I'd share it as an interesting example of some of the topics discussed here.

Dave noted:
"Just to update - the PG-P portable line conditioner arrived the other day, and I've had a chance to try it out. It didn't make much, if any difference - perhaps barely noticable with humbuckers. But any difference it made was completely swamped out by single-coil hum. I don't get this level of single-coil noise most places I play, so the electromagnetic interference here at the house must be pretty bad."

In my case the issue was that while the line conditioner may have worked great at controlling line voltage irregularities, it was also a terrible EMI transmitter that my single coil pick ups recieved loud and clear.

Background: I had moved to an old house that we fixed up before moving in. The original wiring had a lot of problems, and I hired a pro contractor to rewire it. We specifically paid attention to assuring good grounding practices as I wanted to use basement space for rehearsal and recording. I also made a few upgrades to my recording set-up when putting it back together from the move - including adding a Monster brand rack mount line conditioner for my recording gear to plug into. I bought in to the advertising claims that reducing line noise to the recording equipment would help reduce the potential for noise in resulting recorded tracks. When I finally got everything together and fired up a guitar and amp to record a test track, I had lots of hum with single coil pick ups. Much more hum than in the prior cobbled together recording space at my old house. I was really bummed.

I used my single coil Tele as an EMI/RFI "sniffer"- moving the guitar around the room and the recording equipment listening to the noise/hum level through the guitar amp. When the pick up got near the line conditioner, it really started singing with hum. So the device purchased to assure clean line voltage to achieve low noise performance of the recording equipment was also radiating so much EMI/RFI energy to the single coils to pick up that it made it impossible play guitar sounds worth recording.

Taking the line conditioner out of the rack, and further using the single coil "sniffer", the hum was loudest when the pick up was directly over a big toroidal transformer inside the line conditioner case. Not too surprising as a source of radiated electromagnetic emission. The device is likely very good at achieving well regulated low noise line voltage, but it radiated EMI/RFI noise like no other equipment in the room - to be received by the single coils.

I got rid of the line conditioner. Without it, single coil hum was back at a manageable level that I could control pretty well by how the guitar was oriented in earth's magnetic field. The recording equipment sounds fine without the line conditioner.

I hope that Keith Hilton's efforts are successful! I sure like the sound of single coils in both guitars and steels, and further noise/hum control without significant tone impact would be GREAT!
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52 Fender Dual 8, 2022 Jackson Pro V, '67 ZB 12 string, other guitars, amps. Harmonica player too.

Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

I found that the best way to reduce hum with my old single-coil Sho-Bud was to tip the guitar over, lie flat on my back, and lay the Sho-Bud across my chest. But my intonation suffered, and it interfered with my breathing.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Earnest, the Sho-Bud across your chest did not interfere with your breathing. That is a clear sign of irregular bowel movements. A bowel movement is the last stop in the movement of food through your digestive tract. Also, a irregular heart beat can cause intonation problems as you become jerky. Holding your mouth wide open and breathing deeply will help sometimes.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

For the last year I have worked on elimination of noise in audio systems. Several things have become evident to me. #1 No device solves all noise problems. #2 There is noise in every audio system, even if you can't hear it.
There are two types of noise in audio systems---noise you can hear and noise you can't hear. Think of it this way, there are light waves humans can see, and light waves human's can not see. For example, when you turn on a fluorescent light you see the light. When you push a button on your television remote control, you can't see the light. Why? The frequency of the fluorescent light is in the range of human vision. The infra red light of your television remote control is (not) in the frequency range of human vision. The infra red light is there even though you can not see it, or your T.V. remote would not work.
Noise to a musician becomes a problem when they can hear the noise. What about the noise the musician can't hear, it is still there! I say this undetected noise has a great effect on the tone that is heard. In my experiments removing noise--that I could not hear--but could see on my electronic scope---I noticed my tone getting clearer and more transparent. The cleaner I got the noise the better my tone seemed to be. I have become convinced that hidden noise in audio systems has a great effect on how a person perceives tone.
I have several experimental circuits that address common mode and differential mode noise in audio systems. Noise reminds me of cancer. There has not been one single cure for cancer, because there are so many types of cancer.

Bob Sykes · From: North Carolina

Torroidial are the most "audio friendly" transformers but still produce pesky magnetic fields as described by Brian. Increasing source to victim distance helps, but is no cure-all.

Keith makes a really interesting point about the noise that you cannot hear. This had not previously ocurred to me. Out-of-band noise is known issue in electrical measurements. For example "Gain Compression" is caused by strong signals outside the frequency range of interest on a spectrum analyzer. It is unseen yet it overloads in the input of the measuring instrument producing an inaccurate but normal looking display.
So... noise outside the audio band affecting tone...very interesting and very plausible. I love it!

I don't know what Keith will ultimately come up with but I do know two things about whatever that will be.
1) It will not eliminate all noise.
2) It will reduce some types of noise.

With respect to Brian's and Dave Mudgett's noise issues: If you have the ability to safely de-energize individual AC branch circuits at your fuse/breaker box, you can sometimes locate the offending device/circuit.

If you do this and don't get any use-able results by selectively powering down branch circuits, have a friend do it while you lay on your back with the steel guitar belly-up on top of you. Use velcro to secure your feet to the pedals. Confused

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Brian Lee · From: Washington, USA

[quote="Bob Sykes"]
With respect to Brian's and Dave Mudgett's noise issues: If you have the ability to safely de-energize individual AC branch circuits at your fuse/breaker box, you can sometimes locate the offending device/circuit.

Agreed- great idea. In the situation of my offending line conditioner, the house circuit wasn't the issue, nor was all the other equipment running on that circuit. Using a single coil guitar plugged into an amp as an EMI noise sniffer made it really easy to identify the line conditioner as the emission source. Tough to do the same technique with a pedal steel for sure!

Looking forward to hearing more about Keith's new development!
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52 Fender Dual 8, 2022 Jackson Pro V, '67 ZB 12 string, other guitars, amps. Harmonica player too.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Here is a down to earth example: We have all experienced a dog hearing stuff we can't hear. The dog hears the ambulance coming long before you hear it. So there is sound we humans can't hear. Just because we can't hear noise, does not mean it is not there. As I said before, there is a certain amount of noise in (any) audio signal. The big question then is this: How does noise we can't hear effect the tone we do hear? I say it has a dramatic effect on the clearness, cleanness, and transparency of your signal.
Without buying (anything) what can a person do to eliminate as much noise as he can in his music equipment? In the room where your music equipment is set up, plug all equipment into one power strip. Make sure the power strip has the ground plug on it. Plugging everything into the one power strip creates what is known as a (Star Ground)--which helps ground loop elimination. This is OK, because the combined amperage draw of all of your musical gear should be way less than 15 to 20 amps. Most 120 volt AC circuits are on either a 15 or 20 amp breaker.
Next: In the room where your music gear is located there may be more than one 120 volt outlet. Some outlets may have cleaner grounds than other outlets. Cleaner because of longer runs, other connections before the breaker box---and a host of other things. For this reason, try plugging the (star ground) strip into different receptacles in the room, and find the one with the least noise.
Of course this may not clear up, or clean up all noise, just as there is no cure for cancer. There are many types of cancer. I can guarantee what I have told you (will) help some types of noise--but it won't cure cancer!

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I'm reviving this thread because another thread popped up asking for help with this.

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

Dave, I'm in total agreement with your theory. I used to own an old city house with that kind of plaster and old wiring. Hopefully you can find a simpler solution and not engage in the guessing process. Best of luck.

Rob DiStefano · From: New Jersey, USA

Ah yes, the curse of the single coil 60 cycle mambo.

I was fortunate to have had many conversations with Bill Lawrence and got to test out his mini coils and many other of his pickups before they were offered to the public. There's good reason that Bill was given the "Emperor of Impedance" moniker. He was a Giant in the pickup industry. His shoes have yet to be filled.

Anyhoo, the essential problem with single coil pickups is that it's the peaks and valleys of the audio signal they produce is where both the significant humbuzz and treble live. If the humbuzz is mitigated via a dual coil arrangement, a significant amount of treble - the stuff we humans hear and define as "music" - goes down the drain with the RF signals.

Using a dummy coil, either hi-z passive (just another coil, but without magnetics), or a lo-z adjustable coil (the Ilitch system), can rein in some of that lost treble tone, but as with all things electric guitar, none of these systems are perfect and there will be some loss of perceived high end. This is not a bad thing, some of these circuits sound truly good.

Also, what these passive pickups feed both onboard and offboard (circuits, modulation, pedals, amps, etc) can be very unique; capacitance abounds and loves to shunt treble frequencies to ground, so there is no absolute standard for a "noise reduction" system. It's all a compromise of sorts.

Then there are the issues with home and venue electrical systems, which can add and augment the amount of single coil pickup noise.

One thing that stands out with regards to single coil pickups and noise is how the pickup coil is shaped. Since it's the top of the coil that receives the induced signal that's created by the magnetized strings (the sole job of magnets in passive transducers is to magnetize the strings, there is no inherent signal or tone in these magnets, but they can have an effect on both output and tone). For the most part, wide pickup coils that have a lot of top surface area (P90, Jazzmaster, etc) will be noisier than coils that are narrow and tall (Strat, Tele neck, etc). Some coils can intentionally be built tall and narrow, and will exhibit much less humbuzz.

I'll add - shielding pickups WILL change resulting tone to some degree, because of the added capacitance, and this shielding may do little to nothing with blocking RF noise.

In over 70 years of "messing around" with electric guitars of various configurations, I've found it very hard if not impossible to produce the rich harmonics of a good true single coil pickup while at the same time killing any and all RF noise that enters the coil along with the induced signal of the string excursions. It is what it is. I've learned to love at least some of that humbuzz, and keep on keepin' on .....
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I think that in most cases, we can make hum and noise tolerable, either with accessory devices, or by searching out the multiple external offenders and dealing with them individually. However, I'm convinced that the best route to totally clean signals would be to eliminate the way that string vibrations are currently interpreted. It seems to me that string vibrations detected by light (a precision-focused laser or LED), which are then demodulated back into an analog electrical waveform, would be nearly ideal, and also doable now that those technologies have become so precise, profuse, and economical.

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Welcome back, Georg. Good to see you posting again!

~Lee

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Temporarily Lee, not sure if it, or I, will last. But anyway, the "electric noise" problem can be eliminated.

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