New device that removes noise from single coil pickups

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

When I get ready for testing I will try to get with you Jerry

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I don't have much of a problem with noise, since I don't normally gig with single-coil pickups. But I'm sure that a lot of guys do, and they'd welcome some gizmo that would remove all noise and leave only the unaffected guitar signal. If Keith could do that, he's have a winner, I'm sure!

Most of us are familiar with the new Electro-Harmonix pedals that emulate organs and keyboards. And they do a remarkably good job of it. If we assume that different guitars have different timbres and tones, it should also be possible to have a box that would take a basic guitar sound, and make it sound like any other guitar. Make your cheapie Danelectro sound just like a Strat, Martin, Tele, or Les Paul!

Of course, we steelers would want a box that would make any steel sound like a p/p Emmons, Franklin, ZB, Bigsby, Sho~Bud, or MSA. Mr. Green

Jeff Highland · From: New South Wales, Australia

Matt Berg · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Matt, you and one other guy are willing to help me with testing. I have 5 devices built on boards. Meaning I have not put them in metal boxes yet. I hope to get some put in metal boxes soon, so I can send them out for testing. My biggest concern is having a circuit that eliminates noise from 120 volts AC, as well as noise within the equipment hookup. Hopefully the box will also deal with radio frequency noise, and magnetic interference. Sometimes noise can be a combination of problems, not just one problem. My biggest fear is having a box tested, and there still be noise of some kind. My circuit will not solve a electronic problem within an amplifier, or other piece of equipment. If my box does not work, I would like to know why.
So what concerns me most? I wish my box could be tested with "CLEAN" 120 VAC wall power. Not knowing if the 120 VAC wall power is clean, then my box will be expected to not only solve problems within the equipment hookup--but also clean up the 120 VAC wall power. That is a pretty up hill battle to fight. A person can get clean 120 VAC by using one of the PG-P 120 VAC filters the Black Lion company makes. I may have to make a 120 AC line filter to send with my noise elimination box. I am convinced that 80% of noise comes from the 120 VAC wall receptacle. The other 20% comes from various things, mostly common mode noise. Since I bought the Black Lion PG-P power common mode filter, I think my amplifier sounds cleaner, clearer, and more transparent. I have no association with the Black Lion Company, but I really like the 120 VAC power line filter I bought from them.

Matt Berg · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Keith, I don't think this is of much general interest, but I have tried a second power line to the 3rd floor that I assumed would sound a lot cleaner, but it didn't. Whether this demonstrates an RF issue seems indicated, maybe. Having folks try the equipment out at homes could be of interest but I doubt it's going to provide as much info as more controlled test lab measurements. OTOH, my specific broadcast RF situation wouldn't be something you'd want to try to replicate.

Matt Berg · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Keith do you consider the PGP portable unit to be as good as their rackmount units? Wouldn't hurt for me to try one of these, though I have used a couple of other ones that didn't seem to help much. I suppose that if they didn't solve my issues, that would indicate suitability for trying your invention.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Matt, I am guessing the PG-P portable unit is just as good as the rackmount units, for the needs of musicians. All I know is--- I really like the portable PG-P unit I bought off of Amazon. I also know Gene Watson's band uses the PG-P portable unit, and they claim it has solved their noise issues in different buildings.
Here is how I see it; 80% of the noise and ground loops comes from dirty wall power. The PG-P unit addresses dirty power--meaning common mode and differential mode noise. If a person plays in different buildings, I see the PG-P as a must have filtered power strip.
Nothing solves all noise in every situation, but 80% is a big number. The other 20% comes from within the musician's equipment and connecting cords. If you were using the PG-P and still had noise, then you would know the noise is in your equipment and not in the wall power.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Matt, I am guessing the PG-P portable unit is just as good as the rackmount units, for the needs of musicians. All I know is--- I really like the portable PG-P unit I bought off of Amazon. I also know Gene Watson's band uses the PG-P portable unit, and they claim it has solved their noise issues in different buildings.
Here is how I see it; 80% of the noise and ground loops comes from dirty wall power. The PG-P unit addresses dirty power--meaning common mode and differential mode noise. If a person plays in different buildings, I see the PG-P as a must have filtered power strip.
Nothing solves all noise in every situation, but 80% is a big number. The other 20% comes from within the musician's equipment and connecting cords. If you were using the PG-P and still had noise, then you would know the noise is in your equipment and not in the wall power.

Matt Berg · From: Pennsylvania, USA

Sweetwater has B-Stocks of the portable units on sale, just ordered one. I'll keep you posted!

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

I know that I have a serious AC line noise problem in my 64-year-old house. I believe I'd have to totally re-wire the house - or at least run a fresh, from the outside line, isolated AC service into my downstairs music lair, paying very careful attention to grounding - to really clean that up. I did run a fresh line from the inside box into one of these areas, but that didn't help much. I think the problem is endemic to the entire house AC supply.

I did just order one of the open-box PG-P portable power conditioners from Sweetwater. I have tried power conditioners in the past. I hope this is better than the typical power conditioners out there, which I have not found much help. But for $50, it's cheap enough to try. For gigs, I generally carry a rack-mount Furman AR-1215 voltage regulator, which is supposed to not only regulate the AC supply, but also is supposed to clean it up and improve any issues with the sinusoidal AC waveform. I don't generally unpack it from my gig rack to use it at home unless I'm recording. But it is not exactly intended as a line noise filter - that is a 2nd order use case. It is primarily a voltage regulator, and does a great job at that when I'm playing, e.g., on a farm or a winery on a concrete slab or flatbed trailer with a 100-200' power line from a barn, LOL. It has successfully brought line voltages, e.g, down in the low 90's VAC, into reasonable regulation.

Anyway - I'm an EE (retired) and would be very happy to help you test one of your units out. I think it would be a good idea to add a specific line filter to this type of unit - you're right that there are many, many issues involved with the general topic of 'noise' for musicians. I really think most musicians are loath to carry multiple units. Actually, it's kinda' hard to convince them to even carry one, LOL. If you do have multiple components, I'd suggest having a straightforward way to switch individual components in and out to be able to test them either together or in isolation.

I also think there would be great interest in a dedicated box to help with noise, quite apart from a volume pedal, if it really works well. I assume that a standalone box is your testing configuration. Many players, not even just steel players, are confounded by noise issues of various sorts. I do think steel players have special issues because we're pretty much stuck with the orientation of our instrument. As a guitar player, I can contort myself and my guitar in ways to help reduce electromagnetic interference coupled, e.g, via single-coil pickups. Of course, this does absolutely nothing for issues like line noise or ground loops. But that is one very significant source of noise for many players.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Dave, I like your ideas. I am wondering just how many types of noise my new circuit will stop. It may stop 120VAC as well as noise within a musician's system. I need some test subjects. Dave, with your noise problems, and EE experience, you should be a excellent test person.

Bob Sykes · From: North Carolina

Keith, I'd be glad to help with your testing. I built and ran an EMC (ElectroMagnetic Compatibility) test lab for over 40 years. I retired but still do some contract work there. We can discuss the capabilities and equipment off-line if you are interested. Probably not of interest to most on this forum. Involves techno-babble that makes most people (even EEs) eyes glaze over after 5 minutes. Smile

EMC is the art and science of electrical noise. Although EMC Engineering is centered around computer and digital devices, there are a lot of applications to, and parallels with audio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_compatibility
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Bruce Bouton · From: Nash. Tn USA

Single coil pickups can be noisy. I cant risk them in the studio but I think they sound better on steel. It would be great to eliminate the noise without compromising the tone.
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ajm · From: Los Angeles

Nothing really to add here, but there have been a lot of posts, some of which seem to have ventured off topic.

In an attempt to refocus and recalibrate........

IMO there are two basic sources of noise (with NO effects).
1) Noise from the single coils, which is noise/hash floating around in the air, from lights, etc etc etc.
2) Noise from the AC power line coming through the amp itself. That doesn't have anything to do with the pickups, and would be there without the guitar even plugged in.

IMO the two are not the same thing at all, and need to be attacked differently.

I'm not sure which one Keith has his crosshairs set on.

It will be interesting to see what shakes out of his experiments.

Bruce Bouton · From: Nash. Tn USA

Exactly. Single coil hum has been going on since the beginning of time and no one’s figured out how to tame it with the exception of possibly using a dummy coil. I used single coils on the Garth tour and never had an issue but the recording studios a different story.
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Just to update - the PG-P portable line conditioner arrived the other day, and I've had a chance to try it out. It didn't make much, if any difference - perhaps barely noticable with humbuckers. But any difference it made was completely swamped out by single-coil hum. I don't get this level of single-coil noise most places I play, so the electromagnetic interference here at the house must be pretty bad.

I tried my Zum with single-coils, Mullen with Lawrence 705 humbuckers, and a couple of guitars - a Tele with single-coils, and a two-P90-equipped guitar wired/configured to cancel hum with both pickups on. The latter allowed me to rapidly switch between hum-cancelling vs. single-coil with possibly the noisiest (and yet one of the best-sounding) pickups ever made - P90s, in this case Lollars. I tested with amp's gain channel off/on, with/without a compressor, with/without a gain pedal (Simble), and in various combinations, to see what happened when I raised the noise floor. Raising the noise floor by whatever means made it hard to impossible to detect any difference with the line filter. But the way I turned the pickups and even different ways I touched the strings - where on the neck and metal bar/slide touching or not - made much more difference than anything the line filter did. I checked all string grounds, which were all intact, which explains why touching the strings made so much difference.

My conclusion is that while I have AC line noise which perhaps barely came up above the noise floor with humbuckers, it was completely swamped out by noise coupled through the single-coil pickups, regardless of how I configured things.

So Keith - hopefully your device attacks other issues besides pure AC line noise.

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Dave, as I understand the PG-P AC line filter, it filters EMI on the AC 120 volt line. Electro Magnetic Interference There are supposed to be 3 wires in a 120 Volt AC wall receptacle. Hot, neutral, and a ground. Any time current flows in a wire a magnetic field is generated around that wire. Sometimes this magnetic field can transition over to the ground wire, and feed back as a ground loop. The PG-P is advertised as a common mode and differential mode filter. What I wonder is how much of the filtering depends on proper grounding in the building's electrical system. Does the building have a proper ground rod. Do all the grounds go back to where the neutrals connect together in the breaker box. It could be some grounds are absent, hooked up wrong, or maybe hooked to a water pipe. With that said, Gene Watson's band thinks the PG-G has solved most of their noise problems in the different venues they play. I thought the PG-P made my amp cleaner, clearer and more transparent.
The AC power noise is 80% of the noise. 20% of the noise originates within the equipment used, and in the hookup between devices in the signal chain. The more devices in the signal chain, the more chance for noise. The most common problem within the equipment and hookup is the difference in ground potential between each device used. Electricity does not care, it will take the shortest route. For that reason the ground potential of each item becomes very important.
Single coil pickup noise is different than ground loop noise, in that the strings act as a antenna. Where as ground loop noise is ground noise transposed on the signal line. Noise coming from an antenna can become the signal. Phone Companies, Computer Companies, and Music Companies all use differential signaling, transformers, and choke coils to solve noise issue. I am not so sure there is a cure all device that will address all noise issues possible. That is why I can not guarantee what I have built will solve every noise problem. The absolute worst possible connection between music equipment is what is called unbalanced lines. That is what all guitar players use! 1/4 inch unbalanced plugs and jacks. The best hookup method between equipment is to use balanced lines. Meaning 3 wires. Two wires carry out of phase sine waves, the 3 wire is a foil shield. The two wires carrying the out of phase sine waves, are twisted together. For example CAT5 wire has more twists than CAT3 or CAT4.
Now here is another twist. You can buy AC line filters---the actual circuits assembled on circuit boards---on Amazon. I just bought two different ones, a 6A and 25A. One cost around $10.00 and the other one cost around $12.00. I am sure this type of circuit board is what is inside the PG-P filter. The assembled circuit boards come from China, and the parts alone would cost more than what Amazon is selling them for. The circuits are labeled so you know where to hook the incoming black wire, neutral, and ground. On the opposite end it shows you where to hook the black, neutral and ground to the load. I am going to hook up the circuits and see how they compare to the PG-P concerning filtering.

Steve Rosko · From: Georgetown, Texas

Is this the PG-P device you all are referring to?

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Lion-Audio-PG-P-Studio-Grade/dp/B099SCXP32
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Bruce Bouton you said something about adding a second coil to a single coil for noise elimination. Here is a link to what Bill Lawrence was doing. Bill sold a lot of these and they were installed in standard 6 string guitars. It never did catch on in the steel guitar world.
Here is a link to Bill Lawrence's filter.
https://www.tdpri.com/threads/bill-lawrence-q-filter-an-analysis-of.827153/

Bob Sykes · From: North Carolina

I just looked at the Amazon description. Not the videos.

The description of the PG-P conditioner is not very specific but it would appear (to me) that it probably contains a conventional (LCR low pass) power line filter. This would provide the "audio filtration". These filters can contain Common mode and Differential filtering sections.

It also lists "surge protection" which is typically some arrangement of clamping components like varistors, tranzorbs, or less often gas tube discharge devices. These components sit across the AC line conductors and only conduct when the AC surge voltage goes above their breakdown voltage. These provide no audio noise reduction, but they protect from transient (high) voltage events. These can protect CM, DM or both.

Dave, I feel your pain. I live in an older house with 2-prong receptacles. This gives rise to "noise" on the neutral conductors. Unfortunately it (no ground) also impairs the effectiveness of these types of power conditioners. The filters and the surge protections are referenced to dedicated "clean" ground as Keith mentioned. So the PG-P may work better in some environments.

Based on your description it sounds like you have a radiated magnetic field issue where your PSG sits. Single coil pickups are great transducers for these fields. Magnetic fields are toughest to shield against. No easy answer there. Maybe separation from the source, if possible, if you know what the source is. You tried physical orientation and that confirms IMO that it's a H-field issue.

Keith, Just to be clear; My offer of testing your product is not a business proposition. It's on my dime/time because I'm a geek, love PSG, your pedals and a mystery.
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Keith Hilton · From: 248 Laurel Road Ozark, Missouri 65721

Bob, below is a link to the Amazon listing of power supply filter circuit boards. The 6 amp board is around $10.00 and the 25 amp board is around $12.00. Of course they are made in China. There is no way a person could buy the parts for the selling price. I bought both boards. They are well made and professional. I read some of the comments and the hookup numbers confused a couple of people. On close inspection everything is labeled correctly on the board. I am guessing the two confused people did not know what a hot, neutral, and ground wires are.
I am very impressed by these boards. I am guessing these filter boards are just as good as the filters in the PG-P filter. I don't see anything about surge protection concerning these boards. With one of these boards a person could build his own line filter for a lot less than the PG-P sells for. Read all the information and comments listed in the link.
https://www.amazon.com/Filtering-Frequency-Two-stage-Low-pass-Optional/dp/B07T2ZTRGV?th=1

ajm · From: Los Angeles

The PG-p filter: I'm going to make a broad sweeping statement here, subject to clarification/retaliation.
This PG-p filter is nothing special.
It appears to have an AC outlet line/phase/ground checker built in that you can buy at Home Depot/etc for about $10.
I don't know if it has any kind of EMI/RFI/whatever filtering inside, but it's pretty small so I'd suspect not if I had to bet on it.
It may be basically the same as the basic rack mount Furman 8 outlet power conditioner or whatever it's called.
I have two Furmans that are basically the same thing. I took the covers off one time and guess what? There is NOTHING fancy inside other than one of those AC RFI/EMI line filters. It's really not much more than the next level up from an AC outlet strip that you can buy for less than $10.
I suspect that the PG-P trades the RFI/EMI filter for the line checker.

Keith Hilton wrote: "The AC power noise is 80% of the noise. 20% of the noise originates within the equipment used, and in the hookup between devices in the signal chain."
FWIW, this seems BACKWARDS with regards to Dave Mudgett's post as well as most other players including myself.
In other words, the bulk of the noise is coming from hash/RF/etc floating around in the air and entering the signal through the single coil pickups, and NOT through the AC lines the amps are plugged into. YMMV.

Keith's post about the Lawrence Q filter: I read through the link and from the first post my gut reaction is that this was NOT a noise reducer circuit. It is either a bass cut or a mid cut filter, a.k.a. a tone control.
About 25-30 years ago there was a guy named Dan Torres that had all kinds of amp/guitar mod kits, and he had one that appears to be the same thing as the Lawrence.
I had one in a Strat and took it out after a while. It didn't seem to provide a whole lot of usable function.

Adding another coil to reduce noise: This has been done before.
Back in the 90's (maybe) Fender had a Strat that had a dummy coil inside to reduce noise, mostly from the lights/etc.
Music Man and Suhr I believe have a few guitars that have a dummy coil built into the back plate tremolo/vibrato cover plate. I forget the name of the guy/company that came up with this idea.

Dave Mudgett's post about the PG-P: It seems to have offered no real benefits with regards to noise. I'm not surprised.
Unless you have a 50 foot long AC cord that is draped over the mic stands and wrapped around the guitars back and forth across the stage, my gut feel tells me that your noise problems are coming from single coil pickups, and NOT from AC line filtering or lack of it in your amps.

Regarding the PG-P and Furman strips: Has anyone ever peeked inside of them, especially the Furman?
You may be surprised and awakened by how little is actually in them.
Yes, the rack mount strips are convenient, but don't expect some magic fairy dust circuitry in there.
Note that I'm NOT talking about an AC REGULATOR strip, which is different and much more expensive.

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