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Topic: To Push/Pull or just Pull? |
David Barnett
From:
Eastern Kentucky, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2022 5:20 pm |
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Long read, bear with me………Ever since I got into this thing, I knew I’d HAVE TO have me an Emmons at some point. I’m currently working on selling one of my Prewar Gibson Banjers so I can buy me a D10.
Already found one for a good price, and it’s been professionally rebuilt by a reputable guy, ready to go. It’s a Legrande ll, which of course is an all pull. I’ll probably end up buying it as soon as my banjo is sold, I’ve already spoke to the man about it.
What’s got me hung up some days is I love that Push/Pull sound! Bruce Bouton is the #1 reason I got into this instrument, and according to him, he recorded with a Push/Pull 80% of the time. I also have a friend who lives up the road from me that’s been helping me, a real good steel player, his guitar is a 74 Emmons and the sound!!!!! Oh boy that sound is incredible!
Talking with some players the past few months, just about everyone of em told me to stick with an All-Pull if I play out a lot, due to how cranky a Push/Pull can be to fool with. Especially if you buy one that isn’t working properly. I know they tune different, my friend has showed me the method to tune em a few times.
I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m worried if I buy the Legrande ll, My ear won’t be satisfied with it……but I also don’t want to buy a cranky Push/Pull I have to get worked on a lot and fight with it at gigs. And me living where I do, their ain’t a steel guitar repair man within 200 miles.
Are the Push/Pulls really that difficult to work with?
_________________
David Barnett RN
Hatfield Banjo Endorsing Artist
Derby SD-10
Emmons Legrande ll D10
A few old Prewar Gibson Banjers |
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Bob Hoffnar
From:
Austin, Tx
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Posted 15 Aug 2022 6:25 pm
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Push pulls are not so bad to work on. You could do a video chat if you need help.
I switched to legrands about 5 years ago but the push pull is dragging me back in. Nothing else does what they do. With that a good legrande is a hell of a great steel. You will be happy with either one. I’ve got a PP on the way next week so I’ll see if it beats out my legrande as my main working steel.
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Bob |
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Don Mogle
From:
Round Rock, TX, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2022 6:37 pm Push Pulls
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Hi David,
I know what you mean about the push pull sound which is great! Yes, there is a learning curve to tuning a PP. However, not ridiculously difficult. Many here on the Forum would tell you the tuning is very stable once set up properly. I have an '81 push pull. Love it!
I see you have an Derby SD-10. This is an all-pull guitar, so why not go for the Emmons PP and you'll have both?
Buy a push pull and if you cannot get use to its tuning, sell it. They seem to sell pretty quickly here on the Forum if priced reasonably. Check out past lisings be doing a Forum search. There have been many posts about push pulls and there unique sound!
I wish you success whichever way you go.
Don |
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Victor Brannon
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2022 8:02 pm Left hand
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I am a lefty going from lap steel to pedal ! Am thinking about a Simmons pedal 10 s 3 P 4K. They are in Alabama I live in South So also.... Not many steels down here.. Victor
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Victor C Brannon |
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john buffington
From:
Owasso OK - USA
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Posted 15 Aug 2022 8:30 pm
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FWIW, I have both a P/P and LeGrande III, both sound great but the Push/Pull has the LGIII beat tone wise. Having done sessions with both guitars the P/P cuts like a razor and as the late Jerry Roller stated has "crystal clear bell like highs, balanced mid's and all the bottom growl you would ever want!" I love both, but for me, my go to is my P/P's. Once tuned and properly adjusted - they stay in tune as well as any other guitar in the stable. Once that sound gets into your heart and soul nothing else will quite satisfy, IMO.
Last edited by john buffington on 17 Aug 2022 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Paul Sutherland
From:
Placerville, California
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Posted 15 Aug 2022 8:47 pm
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I play all my gigs on my 83 Push-Pull. It is very reliable, and is the best sounding steel I've ever played. (FWIW, I haven't played them all.)
Once you figure out how they work, they are not that hard to work on and maintain.
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It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 16 Aug 2022 7:00 am
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+1 on all the comments about not that hard to maintain/work on a P/P. As far as stability, P/Ps are by far the most solid guitars I've ever owned for staying in tune and not requiring tweaks at the changer on every gig. I don't even get the changer wrench out of the pack seat, it just doesn't happen.
The downside for a P/P is if you're a guy that likes a different copedant every month. IMO a P/P doesn't lend itself to making 'the change of the week' so well, it's a bit more work generally.
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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Henry Matthews
From:
Texarkana, Ark USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2022 8:24 am
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| Bill Terry wrote: |
+1 on all the comments about not that hard to maintain/work on a P/P. As far as stability, P/Ps are by far the most solid guitars I've ever owned for staying in tune and not requiring tweaks at the changer on every gig. I don't even get the changer wrench out of the pack seat, it just doesn't happen.
The downside for a P/P is if you're a guy that likes a different copedant every month. IMO a P/P doesn't lend itself to making 'the change of the week' so well, it's a bit more work generally. |
Bill, you are so correct. Push pulls are by far the most stable, staying in tune guitars made, bar none. I too don’t even get my wrench out of pack a seat. Don’t think I’ve adjusted tuning in end plate since I changed strings. Just touch up with tuning keys and go but most of time, don’t have to do that. I also think they are easier to work on than a lot of all pull guitars. Push pulls sometimes get bad reputation because some people don’t know what they are doing and start twisting and turning on things and before you know it, it’s unplayable. If you don’t have some knowledge of how they work and how to tune properly, they are not for you.
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Henry Matthews
D-10 Magnum, 8 &5, dark rose color
D-10 1974 Emmons cut tail, fat back,rosewood, 8&5
Nashville 112 amp, Fishman Loudbox Performer amp, Hilton pedal, Goodrich pedal,BJS bar, Kyser picks, Live steel Strings. No effects, doodads or stomp boxes. |
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Bill Terry
From:
Bastrop, TX
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Posted 16 Aug 2022 8:36 am
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| Henry wrote: |
| Push pulls sometimes get bad reputation because some people don’t know what they are doing and start twisting and turning on things and before you know it, it’s unplayable. If you don’t have some knowledge of how they work and how to tune properly, they are not for you. |
Exactly... if you don't know what you're doing it can go from bad to much worse in a minute. THOSE are the guitars that have given the P/P the unfair reputation for 'playing badly'. (Not to be confused with the 'playing badly' that happens when I sit down at the guitar) 
_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts" |
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David Barnett
From:
Eastern Kentucky, USA
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Posted 16 Aug 2022 4:24 pm
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| Bill Terry wrote: |
+1 on all the comments about not that hard to maintain/work on a P/P. As far as stability, P/Ps are by far the most solid guitars I've ever owned for staying in tune and not requiring tweaks at the changer on every gig. I don't even get the changer wrench out of the pack seat, it just doesn't happen.
The downside for a P/P is if you're a guy that likes a different copedant every month. IMO a P/P doesn't lend itself to making 'the change of the week' so well, it's a bit more work generally. |
I’m pretty simple with a setup, I like just the standard Emmons setup. Only change I like on my Derby that some push pulls might not have is the RKL raises the 1st & 2nd string and lowers the 6th. I have heard that some Push/Pulls have that change though, as well as the LKV that lowers the Bs. Other than that, the standard Emmons setup is plenty. I think a Crawford Cluster type deal would be too much for my liking.
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David Barnett RN
Hatfield Banjo Endorsing Artist
Derby SD-10
Emmons Legrande ll D10
A few old Prewar Gibson Banjers |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 17 Aug 2022 4:30 am
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Another consideration is that if you do get a nice Emmons PP in good working order and find that it isn't to your liking, there's a market for resale out there, so you could switch to an all pull guitar if you're not happy.
I've had three PP guitars (one was a Promat), and I've liked them all a lot. Great sound, and once you understand how to tune them, it's not difficult at all. And as others have said, once you tune them, they stay tuned unless you change string gauges. But, they are not nearly as easy as an all pull to change copedent.
I've come to prefer Sho Bud permanents. Also quirky in setup, but also solid as a rock once you get there. I just like the old Sho Bud tone.
Dave |
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Jon Light
From:
Saugerties, NY
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Posted 17 Aug 2022 4:46 am
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| David Barnett wrote: |
| ........Only change I like on my Derby that some push pulls might not have is the RKL raises the 1st & 2nd string and lowers the 6th. ....... |
There's nothing about that that is a problem. However, you could not combine the 6th string lower with the B pedal the way you can with an all-pull.
Ditto to what a lot of people are saying -- the stability is something to behold. And a well set up PP has a really nice pedal feel. It is not the double-clutching Mack truck that some people seem to think it has to be. |
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David Barnett
From:
Eastern Kentucky, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2022 6:05 am
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| Jon Light wrote: |
| David Barnett wrote: |
| ........Only change I like on my Derby that some push pulls might not have is the RKL raises the 1st & 2nd string and lowers the 6th. ....... |
There's nothing about that that is a problem. However, you could not combine the 6th string lower with the B pedal the way you can with an all-pull.
Ditto to what a lot of people are saying -- the stability is something to behold. And a well set up PP has a really nice pedal feel. It is not the double-clutching Mack truck that some people seem to think it has to be. |
I’ll probably end up with one eventually. I’m gonna buy this Legrande ll because I’ve already gave the man my word and talked to him about it, it’s a real nice looking guitar and sounds good too. I’d like to have a 70s PP like my friends, the sound of his is magical I swear.
_________________
David Barnett RN
Hatfield Banjo Endorsing Artist
Derby SD-10
Emmons Legrande ll D10
A few old Prewar Gibson Banjers |
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Graham Bland
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 17 Aug 2022 10:28 am PP or All Pull
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David,
I hear what you saying and understand!, To put it bluntly, beauty is in the ear of the beholder!… Different people like different things. I have an all pull guitar and wouldn’t trade it for 20 push pulls but that’s just my taste.(to each his own).My all pull guitar was setup to my standards from the beginning by a master steel guitar builder.
It doesn’t matter what anyone else has, all that matters is what you like.
And has been said in this thread…once a push pull is set up correctly that’s it you most likely won’t have any trouble with it from there forward …the key phrase is “set-up correctly”. There are guys here on the forum that can make a push pull perform like a winning HIGH PERFORMANCE RACE CAR!.. so if you want a PP don’t worry about it…just go for it! |
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David Barnett
From:
Eastern Kentucky, USA
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Posted 18 Aug 2022 5:24 pm Re: PP or All Pull
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| Graham Bland wrote: |
David,
I hear what you saying and understand!, To put it bluntly, beauty is in the ear of the beholder!… Different people like different things. I have an all pull guitar and wouldn’t trade it for 20 push pulls but that’s just my taste.(to each his own).My all pull guitar was setup to my standards from the beginning by a master steel guitar builder.
It doesn’t matter what anyone else has, all that matters is what you like.
And has been said in this thread…once a push pull is set up correctly that’s it you most likely won’t have any trouble with it from there forward …the key phrase is “set-up correctly”. There are guys here on the forum that can make a push pull perform like a winning HIGH PERFORMANCE RACE CAR!.. so if you want a PP don’t worry about it…just go for it! |
I’ll end up buying one I’m sure. If I hadn’t of already committed to buying this Legrande ll, I’d be on the hunt for a good Push/Pull. I’d definitely want one that was setup and mechanically sound, so all I had to do was tune & play.
I do like learning the mechanics of things so I can set my own stuff up, because there will be a time where no one will be around to repair these. That’s why I started learning how to set up banjos when I was 14 years old, so I’d always be able to fix any problems I might run into.
_________________
David Barnett RN
Hatfield Banjo Endorsing Artist
Derby SD-10
Emmons Legrande ll D10
A few old Prewar Gibson Banjers |
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Victor Brannon
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 11 Feb 2023 11:38 am all pull Justice 3/4
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JUSTICE All Pull 3/4 s10 the way to GO (left hand) Good People to work with...
WHO`S Got a L H JUSTICE....... |
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Eugene Cole
From:
near Washington Grove, MD, USA
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Posted 24 Mar 2023 1:05 pm Re: To Push/Pull or just Pull?
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| David Barnett wrote: |
……Ever since I got into this thing, I knew I’d HAVE TO have me an Emmons at some point.
Already found one for a good price, and it’s been professionally rebuilt by a reputable guy, ready to go. It’s a Legrande ll, which of course is an all pull. I’ll probably end up buying it as soon as my banjo is sold, I’ve already spoke to the man about it.
….. I also have a friend who lives up the road from me that’s been helping me, a real good steel player, his guitar is a 74 Emmons and the sound!!!!! Oh boy that sound is incredible! |
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My advise would be to get the LeGrande and then start learning the instrument. After you develop some skills play any and every guitar you get a chance to play just to see what you like. I say this about all learning all instruments; not just PSG’s.
Learning to adjust a PP is it’s own challenge. Focus on learning the instrument for now. If a PP is in your future; you can learn about setting up PP’s after you have more playing skills accumulated.
Does the PP up the road sound incredible when you are playing it too? Because the player and their technique has a huge influence over the tone. Different players obtain different results on the same instruments. And every player will have more or less affinity for any given guitar and for any given type of guitar.
I have a single neck Emmons PP and it is my least favorite of the PSG’s that I own. The PP is for me much more difficult to make copedant revisions on than my MSA and Sierra Crown guitars. The all-pull guitars are easier for me to make revisions to; all I need is a thread die, a rod nut and a bell crank to pull the rod. The PP would require removal of extant rods for some changes to be added.
Perhaps the most critical next-step other than finding the money; is to find a couple of PSG teachers that you are compatible with. I suggest building rapport with more than one teacher because sometimes it helps to get more than one persons guidance and different teachers can offer distinct perspectives on a given topic.
Also do some searches here on the SGF to see what learning materials people recommend for new player and WHY they prefer those learning materials for new players.
When you have your first PSG you will be at the steepest portion of the iearning curve. Learning to be a PSG mechanic for PP’s can wait for a while.
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Regards
-- Eugene <sup>at</sup> FJ45.com
PixEnBar.com
Cole-Luthierie.com
FJ45.com
Sierra U14 8+5 my copedent, 1972 MSA D10 8+4, and nothing in the Bank. 8^) |
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