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Topic: Zum endplates |
Mitch Ellis
From:
Collins, Mississippi USA
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Posted 27 Jul 2022 9:01 pm |
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I read that some Zums had cast endplates and some had machined endplates and that the ones with the cast endplates sounded better. Could someone describe the difference in tone between the two and maybe show a photo of each? Thank you.
Mitch |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 28 Jul 2022 2:05 pm
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A smile is worth a thousand words brought too you buy the era of steel guitars with casted parts. Sorry this is just a fact maybe!
I see the smiles an here the difference in tone happen from one steel too another several times a month at my steel shop here in Nashville.
Not only end plates were casted parts for steels.
Changer housing
Changer brackets
Key heads
Neck.
It's the sum of all the casted parts an types of woods used too make a steel with good tone .
MAYBE MAYBE NOT I AGREE!!
Last edited by Johnie King on 1 Aug 2022 7:44 pm; edited 10 times in total |
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Ricky Davis
From:
Bertram, Texas USA
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Posted 28 Jul 2022 2:59 pm
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Ricky Davis
Email Ricky: sshawaiian2362@gmail.com
Last edited by Ricky Davis on 29 Jul 2022 5:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Barry Coker
From:
Bagley Alabama, USA
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Posted 28 Jul 2022 5:04 pm
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If you do a little research on a company called Akron Brass you will find that they make a lot of products for the Fire Service. One of the thing they make are Bells used on Fire Trucks these bells are cast from molton brass I had the chance to ask a Rep. from Akron Brass why cast and not CNC cut from Billet? After a look that made me feel like Oh that was a dumb question the gentleman simply said "Cast Brass sounds like a Bell Billet sounds like a truck wheel hit by a pice of fire wood".
I know that end plates are aluminum not brass but both are Non Ferris metals and share some traits. I know for sure if you suspend a cast end plate and a billet end plat and tap them with a drum stick there is a big diffrence in tone.
Just my 2 cents.
Barry
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Zum-D-10, Webb 614-E, 65 Pro Reverb, Evans RE200, 69 Gibson Birdland, 89 Telecaster EAD Bad!! |
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Mitch Ellis
From:
Collins, Mississippi USA
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Posted 28 Jul 2022 6:12 pm
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Thank ya'll for the replies. I have a D10 Zum that I bought new in 2004. Over the years, many steel players have walked up to the stage to get my amp settings and told me that my Zum sounded really good. On two different occasions, two "high profile" steel players did the same thing. One steel player offered to trade me his D10 Emmons Lagrande on the spot. haha! I'm not all that great of a steel player so it must be the sound of the steel itself. It does have cast endplates, but I've never played a Zum with machined endplates and was wondering what the difference in tone was. Thanks again for your thoughts on the subject, and if anyone else has any thoughts, I'd sure like to hear them.
Mitch |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 28 Jul 2022 7:13 pm
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Mitch,
The material definitely makes a difference in tone, the example of the brass bell is a good one and has similar results in aluminum. I can't speak for other guitars, but we did AB testing with the Resound65 and the difference between the two was more than obvious. The billet introduced a warbly tone and the clarity and note separation was all but gone.
It's worth noting that even castings are machined, just they require much less profiling than a block of billet aluminum lol
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Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co. |
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Kevin Hatton
From:
Buffalo, N.Y.
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Posted 28 Jul 2022 8:09 pm
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| Glad you recognize that Kelsey. Resonance is everything. |
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Mitch Ellis
From:
Collins, Mississippi USA
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Posted 28 Jul 2022 8:09 pm
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A dumb question I'm sure, but what is Billet aluminum and how is it different than other aluminum?
Mitch |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 28 Jul 2022 8:55 pm
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Interesting discussion and not a dumb question at all Mitch.
Billet simply means a piece (bar, rod, puck, cube, chunk, etc.) of solid material. Metal billet can be forged, extruded or cast....yes cast, you know like a bell.
The word billet has nothing to do with the way a given raw material was produced, nor does it have anything to do with what a material is. Virtually all solid materials (and some liquids....WHAT?)can be "billet" including plastics and wood. |
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Paul Awalt
From:
Greenwich, Ct.
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Posted 29 Jul 2022 8:02 am
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| So I would assume that the Emmon's SD10 that used a D10 endplate do not sound as good as the Emmon's that used a SD10 only one cutout endplate. |
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Mitch Ellis
From:
Collins, Mississippi USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2022 8:26 am
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Hey Ross!
Thank you for that clear explanation. I've held billet in my hand countless times and never knew it!  Bar, rod, and chunk are terms that I'm familiar with.  And Paul, that's a good question. According to what I've read about endplates, I guess that it would have an effect on the tone, even if only a small one.
Mitch |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 29 Jul 2022 12:27 pm
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Ross is of course correct, as casting a billet was actually a part of our testing process, my crude machinist vernacular is hard to forget lol.
For the sake of this discussion, the cast endplates opposite number would be made from extruded aluminum, most likely 6061. Apart from differences in the alloy itself, what primarily affects the resonance of the material is how it is produced. Castings are made by melting the metal into liquid form and then(in this case anyway) poured into a sand mold which then cools the metal quickly into a solid; this yields a very diffuse and "open" molecular structure that tends to produces sympathetic resonance, basically amplifying and reproducing whatever frequency is introduced to it.
Extrusions are made by heating the metal(but not melting it) and forcing it through an extrusion die to produce the shape. This process compresses the molecules together, and often in a directional manner depending on the shape; this cause something of a "grain" structure in the metal. So, with a tighter and possibly uneven molecular structure, the metal will tend to favor certain frequencies(usually high ones)over others. Also, there is a tendency to produce synthetic resonance, or to produce a tone other than that which is acting on it, which usually is manifested as a high pitched overtone.
Please take this on the basis of I'm not an expert lol, but that is how the experts explained it to me as I understand it.
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Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co. |
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Mitch Ellis
From:
Collins, Mississippi USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2022 6:04 pm
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Thank you, Kelcey.
I always thought that a machined endplate was cut with a "bit". I didn't know that it was melted and forced through an extrusion die. In that case, how can you tell the difference between the two endplates (cast or machined) if there are no tooling marks?
Mitch |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 29 Jul 2022 6:23 pm
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Mitch,
The shape of the endplate itself would not be made by an extrusion die, just the block of metal from which it was machined. Even cast parts have some machining done to them, although they are usually cast in the general shape of the part. A casting will have a kind of sandy texture on unmachined surfaces.
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Co-owner and operator: Emmons Guitar Co. |
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Mitch Ellis
From:
Collins, Mississippi USA
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Posted 29 Jul 2022 6:34 pm
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That's what I was thinking. Thank you, Kelcey.
Mitch |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 7:38 am
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| I just sent a pair of '66 Emmons end plates to Ross to be repaired as someone had drilled holes in them. Ross called me and said listen to this as he plinked on each one comparing it w a billet endplate that he had. The billet one was far more musical. I suspect the tone has more to do w the mass and/or configuration than "billet" vs "simply cast"(I do understand the difference). One thing that has always made me wonder was that as soon as you bolt the end plate to the cabinet all the "bell-like tone" is history. |
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Marty Broussard
From:
Broussard, Louisiana, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 11:48 am
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👀
_________________
RETIRED
"Technique is really the elimination of the unnecessary..it is a constant effort to avoid any personal impediment or obstacle to achieve the smooth flow of energy and intent" Yehudi Menuhin |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 4:54 pm
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| Jim Palenscar wrote: |
| I just sent a pair of '66 Emmons end plates to Ross to be repaired as someone had drilled holes in them. Ross called me and said listen to this as he plinked on each one comparing it w a billet endplate that he had. The billet one was far more musical. I suspect the tone has more to do w the mass and/or configuration than "billet" vs "simply cast"(I do understand the difference). One thing that has always made me wonder was that as soon as you bolt the end plate to the cabinet all the "bell-like tone" is history. |
I think this is the file. https://b0b.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/endplates.mp3
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Jim Palenscar
From:
Oceanside, Calif, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 5:13 pm
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| Yup |
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Doug Earnest
From:
Branson, MO USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 6:15 am
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| Now securely screw a good sized piece of 5/8 inch thick hard maple to each of them and repeat the test. |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 7:12 am
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....
Last edited by Johnie King on 31 Jul 2022 7:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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memphislim
From:
Austin, Texas
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 8:31 am
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Since we're now discussing other guitars besides the original Zum entry, consider the Mullen guitars that have chrome plated steel end plates.
These guitars are both as resonant and toneful as any other.
I doubt that aluminum end plates of either construction would be more beneficial. |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 11:40 am
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| Maybe the casted key head ,casted neck an casted end plates together should be considered in your equation. |
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Ross Shafer
From:
Petaluma, California
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 12:18 pm
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Thanks for posting those Michael, I thought I'd get top it today sometime, but you beat me.
Doug: you read my mind
Jerry: I agree
Johnie: If I understand your statement correctly, I agree. i believe that everything affected by the string's energy has some tonal impact even if miniscule.
I personally would love to be using cast endplates, but it has nothing to do with tone. |
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