"A" pedal location question

Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

I have been playing my MSA for, well, a long time. I realized a long time ago that it seems that the location of my A and B pedals is a little too far to the left to be comfortable when I rock from one to the other. I either don't clear the opposing pedal, or I hit my LKL lever because I have to move my leg too far to the left. Is there a method, a technique or some way to adjust the height of the pedals so I clear the opposing pedal when I rock on them? I have tweaked and tweaked them, but I cannot seem to cleanly clear the pedal I need to. Is there something you have found that works well or is it really trial and error? Thanks all!

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

From about 1999 to 2017 I learned to play knee levers and played and gigged a MSA Classic S 10. It was set up Day Pedals so L to R was C-B-A-4th was set up to lower 5th to A# and another string. (As you can see the 4th pedal was added before I got it, No paint shaft). I had to sit to the right, Had to Center my body on about the 15th fret. Below is a picture of the way the pedals was set, With pedals set up with B in 4 & A 5th bracket on pedal bar. Only time foot had to go left is for C pedal.

If your guitar is an S 10 you may want to move the pedals to the right, If It is a D10 you may have to move the knee levers to make it more comfortable.

Some pictures would help so forum members can see how the guitar is set up and suggestions.
Good Luck getting guitar set to comfortable and Happy Steelin.

Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

As Bobby suggests, you might want to try shifting your pedals one position to the right. Most keyless guitars have the pedals all shifted one position to the right out of necessity, the A pedal aligns roughly with the nut. With no keyhead there is simply no real estate on that end to set the pedals farther left. When you see a typical keyhead guitar with a "0" pedal it's typically setup this way too -- on an Emmons setup the A pedal is roughly aligned with the nut and with LKL. Many players (including me) prefer this placement, it sounds like you might too.

A rule of thumb for most typical keyhead guitars built mid-late 60's on->, the B pedal was roughly aligned with the nut. This also evolved as the typical location of left-knee-left, directly below the nut +/- a little. Normal player position would be toward the changer end, player centered around the 15th-16th fret, so that your left leg extends at an angle between the left knee levers to sit comfortably over the left-most pedals, A & B on an Emmons setup. Is your guitar an S10? D10? On a D10 the left knees are typically set back toward the rear apron so the angle between them and the left-most pedals would be less relative to the player's position vs. a single body where the knee levers are necessarily closer to the front of the guitar.
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Robert Murphy · From: West Virginia

The knee lever spacing was why I moved my pedals to the right. I didn’t want to widen the lkl and lkr any more than necessary so I use the lkl position as the anchor.

Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

Hey! Thank you all for the replies! My guitar is a D10. It sounds like I am not the only one to have this little issue. That's comforting! You can see that the B pedal aligns pretty much with the nut. I actually have the LKL lever pushed almost up so as not to hit it when rocking onto the A. After tomorrow I will be travelling a few days so I will be out of pocket a bit, but I will follow up as soon as I can. Again, thank you!

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Ian Worley · From: Sacramento, CA

Yes, your left knees are set pretty far to the right of what would be normal (not that there is anything really "normal" about a pedal steel). Looks uncomfortable to me too. Moving those knee levers over one pedal space might be the appropriate solution here.
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Tucker Jackson · From: Portland, Oregon, USA

Agreed.

Before doing that, you might try lowering your B pedal. Based on the photo, I would have trouble playing that guitar even if the knee levers were further to the left and I was sitting further to the left.

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

For me, ergonomically the A pedal should be as far to the left as possible, it does make rocking on and off A and B pedals far easier. Moving things around like that on older MSA's is a pain in the butt, I owned a mid70's D10, then D12, I know personally the pain of that changeover with round crossrods, etc.
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Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

Thank you all for your valued input! Unfortunately based on John's comment, and I agree, changing them may be more than I can handle - at least not without some real hand-holding along the way! I will re-visit this when I return from my trip, but I just hope there's a workable solution here. Thanks again!

Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

I wonder if I would have played any better if it was actually more comfortable to play!!

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I solved that problem by having different (separate) left-knee levers for each neck. Mr. Green

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Earnest Bovine · From: Los Angeles CA USA

Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

I have tried moving my chair, raising my chair, raising the guitar and changing the pedal heights every which way. I still cannot comfortably tilt my left foot off the B to the A. I do it, but it's not comfortable. It's just too far to the left of where my knee has to be.
I will have to contact MSA, but I was wondering if I can put a sliding bushing on the rod to the left of the knee lever (the LKR rod) with collars to keep it in place, then a connecting rod to the rod that moves now. The left knee lever then would be one rod to the left of where it is now and would essentially pivot or spin on the rod left of it. Does that make sense? I really don't know yet... Just brainstorming.

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Roger, lots of my students make the mistake of having their left foot come straight in to the pedals A and B. It's essential that your toes be rotated CCW about 25-30°, that makes rocking on and off far easier, basically an ergonomics thing with your foot and ankle. Is your left foot angled like that?

Photos show right and wrong way to position your foot. To the left is my zero pedal. Pedals are Emmons setup, A on the left, B on the right, then C. Chrome thingy is a secret weapon I'm testing for the CIA. Confused

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Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

Oh my friend, I never intended for anyone to spend so much time with me on this. I appreciate it more than I can tell you. The problem is that I could never twist my ankle, essentially rotate it, 30 deg CCW with my leg so far to the right. I guess everyone else has more flexible ankles? I never could do it comfortably even in my 20s.

Bobby D. Jones · From: West Virginia, USA

Where did the guitar came from?
If the Pedals and Knee Levers are not lining up. I wonder if the guitar has been played Day Setup and the Knee Levers positioned for Day Setup. Then someone changed the pedals to Emmons/Nashville Set Up and not moved the Knee Levers.

Look under the guitar for screw holes where knee levers have been moved.

Moving the A Pedal 2 Pedal brackets to the Right, Would make a big difference in the Knee Lever alignment.

I play Day Setup, Mr. McClung's post is showing the foot on B-A Home position for a Day Setup guitar with pedals set up C-B-A. With the C pedal on the left.

There has been a few discussions here on the Forum about ankle and foot damage causing players to shift from Emmons Setup to Day Setup, Or Day Setup to Emmons Setup for more comfortable playing.

Having the guitar set up comfortable is important to set and practice/play for long sessions.
Good Luck and Happy Steelin.

Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

Thank you, again. I (my dad actually) bought the guitar new in '75. It has never been modified. Anyway, I've taken enough of your time on this and appreciate all the insights and advice. Making rod changes sounds like a good option, but whether I can do it without really messing it up is another story! I am very mechanical, but the thought of not being able to play it at all... Sad

Take care.

Paul Brainard · From: Portland OR

Your idea to put the lever "loose" on another shaft with a linkage over to the cross-shaft with the bell ranks is clever. Bud Carter designed these (or at least much of the mechanics) and later on his own brand that's essentially what he did - the levers mount on a separate bracket with a linkage to the acting cross-shaft. This allows you to move the levers without re-rodding the guitar or moving shafts around. I did it on a Carter that I just sold. Sierra went further and had the levers mounted in slots so you could slide them side to side where you want them.

Jack Stoner · From: Kansas City, MO

John has his theory. After playing pedal steel for 50 plus years (Emmons setup) I find closer to straight (more to right) works for me. I had some problems with an Emmons PP and more to the left. When I got a Franklin the pedals were more to the right and worked better for me.

When my wife was learning, with a GFI Expo S-10, she was having problems with the A pedal and the LKL lever. Moving pedals over to the right a small amount solved her problems.
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Jim Palenscar · From: Oceanside, Calif, USA

It has been my experience that the left knee lever left is generally located between the 2nd and 3rd pedal and with lots of guitars the undercarriage is designed to have the left knee right 5 1/2-6" to the right of the left knee lever left. That pretty much dictates where things go unless you want to get into drilling, tapping, etc and reinventing the wheel so to speak.

Roger Andrusky · From: Waterford, PA, USA

Thank you all for your insights, advice and comments. I really appreciate them!
Paul, maybe you could share a little more detail as to how that was done on the Carter? I am not a machinist so I can't even make parts to try, but if there was a way to do this with something already out there, well, maybe it's worth taking a deeper look at. If you had a couple of pictures that would speak volumes!

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