| Author |
Topic: Remembering the changes. |
Chris Brooks
From:
Providence, Rhode Island
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 6:02 am |
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| Tim Toberer, thanks for the link to the online fake book. Looks like a great resource! |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 6:10 am
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I have developed a very simple method that works for me regardless of the complexity of the tune. It starts with the sheet music. I spreadsheet out each chord of the tune and I include the underlying scale for that chord in my spreadsheet. I then examine the melody notes as written in the sheet music, and look for which fret(s) will allow me to play the melody notes and ALSO the underlying bass of the harmony. An A chord has an A in the bass. An A/C# chord has a C# in the bass. I do that for the entire tune. And every melody note is incorporated into the spreadsheet.
Then I practice the tune, adding harmony notes were I can, improvising and adding embellishments where I can, and I make the tune mine. If I find a tune that does not lay out well where I can't play both the melody and bass line on the same fret, I just don't play that tune, although that is a rarity with the alkire/eharp tuning, especially the 12 string extended version I play. Mostly I can find a spot where everything lays out beautifully. The tune then gets added to my repertoire and I practice it on a regular basis. This method works for jazz tunes and country tunes.
_________________
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 6:15 am
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| Quote: |
| Stardust is such an amazing tune but also one of the most unique and challenging in terms of form and melody in the entire cannon of great American songs. |
I think I may have just got my foot in the door on this one It only took 30 years or so! I can't read music so the chords are all I have to guide me. Mostly people just play the second part "sometimes I wonder.." but the first part of the song " and now the purple dust.." is really the most challenging. The open meter and the twist in the melody "always reminding me that we're apart" is an early, brilliant example of the melodic possibilities in this music. When you play both parts together the second part sounds so much better. There are so many wonderful versions of this song, it has limitless possibilities just like the name implies. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 7:12 am
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For those interested, the full version of Stardust is available in the "Just Standards Real Book". published by Warner Brothers. The Hal Leonard Real Book Volume II only has the second part of the tune and not the intro part.
You guys have challenged me. Think I'll try my method and see what i can come with.
_________________
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 11:13 am
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deleted.
_________________
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Last edited by Bill McCloskey on 30 Jul 2022 1:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 1:24 pm
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| Interesting you mentioned Stardust. I just started working on it. After an hour or so I decided that eventually I can work it up. Emphasis on "eventually" I am in 8 string B11 and there are some really nice 3 and 4 note chords in there. I am using an old original Real Book version. Not sure if all the chords are right but they sound good. |
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Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 1:26 pm
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| . . . I tried to listen to you version of Stardust Bill, but couldn't get it to work. |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 30 Jul 2022 4:26 pm
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| Great, thanks! |
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Paul Seager
From:
Augsburg, Germany
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 4:49 am
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A very good discussion and got me thinking. I've come to the conclusion in life that working, being married, having children and/or pets, requiring food and enjoying sunlight are all major blockers to learning music. I struggle to recall a song's changes, even simple ones.
One of the many jazz guides I've purchased (and committed to a dusty eternity), is the "The Jazz Theory" book from Mark Levine and although I've glossed over most of it, it contains two useful chapters, one on repertoire, a list of almost 1000 jazz songs and the other on Heads. Repertoire is lost on me because in my part of the world very few of these songs are played in sessions. Around here it's kind of "Fly-All of Me to Ipanema" However Heads may address David's original post.
It lists songs that share the chord structure of a well known original. I recall that "I got Rhythm" comes out as the main one but there are some others. The purpose of the chapter is that learning that list of basis songs in several keys encourages retention and recognition of other songs. Heck, I may even give this a try!
The advice on looking for the I, VI, V pattern is not wrong. I use to be scared to solo over say "All the things you are" until I realised that most of the changes are irrelevant (at least when starting out in soloing). I do believe learning melodies is important and moving through other keys is useful. But not all keys. Jazz seems to love F, Bb, G, C, Cm. Vocalist songs are more challenging because you can't predict the natural key of a singer and I've learned a lot of songs in Bb and Eb just cos of one young lady!
Adapt to your surroundings, your local scene but unless you want to make it in NYC don't try to boil the ocean !
\paul |
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Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 5:37 am
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"Fly All of Me To Impanema", I was sure I had all the fake books I would ever need Paul, but I can't find that tune in any of them! Huh . . .  |
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 7:06 am
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Let's say a song is a total of 32 bars long. I find this approach to memorization works well for me...
Memorize the changes to the first 4 bars.
Once you have the first 4 bars down, add 2 more.
Once you have memorized the changes to the first 6 bars, add two more.
etc., etc., until you get all 32 bars memorized.
Once you have it down, you can "practice" the changes while sitting in a boring meeting, going to sleep, etc. Just run thru them in your mind.
Also, remember that SLOW MOTION is your friend. If you are stumbling with getting the changes down at tempo, slow the tune way down to where your hands are easily following your memory.
Like has been mentioned previously, the more theory you know, the easier memorization will be.
Also, the more songs you memorize the changes to, the time it takes to memorize the changes should significantly shorten. And, as it has been alluded to previously, the more tunes you memorize, the more your ear will indirectly start to pick up the sound of chord changes to where you can hear what is going on.
Like everything else in music, the more you do it, the simpler it will become.
_________________
https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 8:49 am
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| Paul Seager wrote: |
The advice on looking for the I, VI, V pattern is not wrong. I use to be scared to solo over say "All the things you are" until I realised that most of the changes are irrelevant (at least when starting out in soloing).
\paul |
Not sure what you mean by that. The chord changes and especially the modulations are what makes the magic happen in that song.
As far as memorizing it, diagraming the AABA structure helps. Not every song follows such a logical pattern, but there usually is some recognizable recurring sequence. And, as Alan says, practicing the various parts in 2- or 4-measure chunks is the way to go. |
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Carey Hofer
From:
South Dakota, USA
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Posted 31 Jul 2022 7:11 pm
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| What helps me personally, when I am attempting to memorize A tune like "All the Things You Are", is to to group the changes into key centers. This tune modulates several times so if I know where the modulations are, it simplifies things and makes it easier for me to improvise over the changes. |
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Jim Kaznosky
From:
New Jersey, USA
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Posted 3 Aug 2022 8:03 am
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| Learning a song in all keys is a way to get completely comfortable with a song, a tuning, and seeing things on the neck. It is not just for heavy cats in New York. It is a way in which you might make connections that you might otherwise not make. |
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Jesse Pearson
From:
San Diego , CA
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Posted 3 Aug 2022 9:42 am
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| Being mostly a self taught musician when it comes to steel, upright bass, alto sax and guitar, I realized I had developed a bad habit in my youth of memorizing written music lead lines on clarinet in school without memorizing or even knowing the chord progression because it wasn't on the music. I started doing the same thing when I would transcribe songs off of records. This came to a head in my early 20's at a gig on bass and I forgot my lines and had no idea where I was in the progression. I was known for doing cover songs note for note and the result was I was basically a classical musician who didn't know the backing chords to my tunes half the time. The way I have been trying to overcome this is by making backing tracks from scratch where I play all the different instruments. Being able to think of the underlying chords simultaneously as I am playing worked out phrases is hard for me because my ear leads my finger pattern memory. I even do this with bass and have to slowly work at verbalizing the chords as I play over them. All I can say is even Charlie Parker had a hard time explaining what he was doing once he was able to play a song on auto-pilot using his ear and probable some finger pattern memory. You learn the theory of a song as you work it out and build your lines, but you don't think about the theory when you have reached auto-pilot for the most part. Trading fours on a jazz song for instance makes you break out of auto-pilot and count the measures and the chords so you come in at the right place. I can tell you the chords to a song if you ask me when I'm not playing, but my bad habit of trying to reach auto pilot and learn songs like a long Bach cello piece is hard to break out of. I guess just like everything else in life you get good at, you have to repeat and repeat the memory of something specific you want to be able to recall instantly. The alternative is to use a lead sheet which looks lame but is the only way sometimes as you get older and have less time to study diligently. |
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Tony Prior
From:
Charlotte NC
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Posted 4 Aug 2022 12:55 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
| Know your circle of 5ths. and if you are playing jazz, your circle of 4ths. Most chord changes relate to the circle in some way. |
YEP--and a good ear !
This is why we study MUSIC , not the instrument per se . 
Its not difficult, its just a process, or journey of study .
Memorization is fine tool but at some point we should go backyards and learn what it is we memorized and why . There is a method to that madness !
_________________
Emmons L-II , Fender Telecasters, B-Benders
Pro Tools 12 on WIN 7 !
jobless- but not homeless- now retired 9 years
CURRENT MUSIC TRACKS AT > https://tprior2241.wixsite.com/website |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 4 Aug 2022 7:02 am
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4ths and 5ths are the same circle, and it is certainly not limited to any one style of music.
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 4 Aug 2022 7:06 am
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Those playing country and rock, please head to the right. Those playing jazz please head to the left. 
_________________
Check out the Steel Guitar Union Hall Facebook group for you daily dose of Steel https://www.facebook.com/groups/steelguitarunionhall |
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David Matzenik
From:
Cairns, on the Coral Sea
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Posted 4 Aug 2022 1:13 pm
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OK, we know our cycle of 5ths and 4ths. We know our subdominants and dominants and relative minors. What is the next thing to learn from the cycle?
_________________
Don't go in the water after lunch. You'll get a cramp and drown. - Mother. |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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David DeLoach
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2022 5:23 am
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I know a lot of jazz theory (wrote a 386 page book that was used at Berklee School of Music), but at times I just need to resort to brute memorization. This is a chart I had to play in front of 33,000 people on live international TV. The tempo was pretty quick, and I didn't want to do a belly flop off the high dive in front of the whole pool, so I just memorized this section. Fortunately, because I have memorized a LOT of music in my life, this didn't take long to get in my head. Being able to spell these chords and select color tones in them - in a sequence that didn't have me jumping all over the guitar fretboard was very helpful.
_________________
https://www.MasterGuitarists.com/ |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2022 7:04 am
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| Wow, David. Things could get ugly in that mess without knowing your inversions and voice leading. I would probably get the target chords down first, then try to figure out how to get to them. What was your process? |
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Tim Toberer
From:
Nebraska, USA
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Posted 5 Aug 2022 8:32 am
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| Quote: |
| This is a chart I had to play in front of 33,000 |
That is a dandy! What instrument were you playing?? Please don't say 6 string lap steel!  |
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J D Sauser
From:
Wellington, Florida
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Posted 6 Aug 2022 11:59 am
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3 Methodical Rules:
1- So many in modern (vs. "Classical") music want to insist on calling themselves as "By Ear Players"... but not only do they NOT LISTEN, some actually refuse to declaredly!
So, LISTEN! Stay away from the axe and LISTEN, hum, sing or what ever you can along! Become CONSCIOUS of what you aim to play. One hasn't LEARNED squat, if one can't hum the tune.
2- YES, in Jazz, playing "By Ear" one HAS to know the progression.
Learn to demystify by locating the correct Key center (Fly Me To The Moon is in the key of the first MAJOR chord (4th chord in the progression), NOT the first or last minor. THEN you get chords which fall into place in a way that will resemble so many other songs.
If you learn a new song, find YouTube videos where they play to chord charts (or sheet music where the progression's chords are shown) and hum not the lyrics but replace them with the CORD NAMES:
"Ah minor, Ah minor | Dee minor, Dee minor | Gee seventh, Gee seventh | Cee Major, Cee seventh | Eff Major, Eff Major | Beemin flat five, Beemin flat five | Eee senventh, Eee seventh | Ah minor, Ah seventh |.... "... That's Fly Me To The Moon in C.Maj, by the way.
Then you sing along to solos! You HAVE to have it inside youself so bad, you will alway know exactly where you will be when you go into learning to play or improvise or pick solos or parts of solos from others.
Autumn Leaves and so many tunes have the same core. You can virtually carry all most ALL your solos, changes etc from one song to the other.
You sing along singing the NUMBERS instead of chord names, or BOTH.
It's gotta SIT so you can't listen to the tune without just going into humming chord names or numbers to it! Do it your car, at boring family gatherings, and while traveling on airplanes (but make sure you have TAKEN OFF, so they can't throw you OUT!
3- Music TENDS to move in FOURTHS. Western (not just "Cowboy-Western") music does.
The circle of fifths ought to be read COUNTER-clockwise.
Learn to know "up a fourth" from any chord... at least from all C-diatonic roots (C, D, E... ) to be able to name the next a fourth higher from any of these notes. You will use that DAILY!
Find ii-m, V7, I.M and ii-mb5, V7, i-minor SEQUENCES. They are EVERYWHERE and you can transpose ALL you've learned around from one tune to the next.
These are ALL sequences moving up in fourths!
vii-mb5, III7th, vi-m, ii-m, V7th, I.Maj, IV.Maj... is one continues string of 6 moves up in fourths. They are found in a string or bits and pieces EVERYWHERE. You HAVE to be able to navigate them from reading a chart and recognizing them to memorizing much faster the progression and being able to sing-sing along and "see" the changes on your instrument's neck EVEN if you act like you are totally dedicating your undivided attention to what you wife is trying to tell you!
Learn to do those sequences ALL over your neck by memory. Practice soloing over these changes (there is 1000's of videos of "ideas" on YouTube... for FREE).
Learn to transition from any Major chord up to the next Major chord going up in fourths and find ways to play transitions.
4- Yes, I lied because nobody reads about a method with more than 3 rules!
Listen to rhythm tracks and hum your chord names and numbers to them.
Then try to imagine "ideas", "phrases", "lines", "clichés" or "licks" IN YOUR HEAD! SING them, hum them.., using again the Chord Names/Numbers.
Only when you have gained consciousness of what you intend to play (developed by you or picked from somewhere else) you go and try to figure it out on your instrument.
Don't ever let any mechanical system dictate what you play!
Last "rule":
Don't let yourself be deterred by Snake Oil Marketing Gurus and Carpet Baggers who promise some "Trick", "Secret" or "MIRACLE" scale, trick, pocket, concept that will make you sound "bluesy", "jazzy" or my most preferred one: "sounding like you are playing Bebop"!
BS!
Look up Barry Harris' opinions on modes, scales and "Jazz Schools" (which are famous for selling the above marketing-created "concepts" outlined under "Last rule").
It's a discipline and if the goal is to be one day able to play "without thinking much", you HAVE to train your brain all this, hoping one day it (that brain!) will do it while you enjoy watching the girls dancin' to your noise.
Opinionated enough?... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"
A Little Mental Health Warning:
Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.
I say it humorously, but I mean it. |
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