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Topic: Now I know I should NEVER adjust my steel!!! |
Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 9:53 am |
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I posted recently under the heading: 'A small triumph'. I had manged to split-tune my 10th string B-A lower so that it canceled out the A pedal B-C# raise. I was a happy camper - I now had my 4/5 chord.
Today I returned to the scene of the 'triumph'. It was all still working but I had a brainwave: 'Why not roll off that 10th 'lower' on my A pedal (#3 for me) and forget that split-tune. If I ever need the C# at the bottom of the A chord (pedals down), then my RKR, along with lowering the 10th to A, lowers my D (9th) to C#.
Easy-peasy, right?
And it worked. I got my 4/5 with just A and b.
Then I tried to lower 10 to A on RKR - it wouldn't move! I opened up the split-tuning screw in case that was impeding things but no go.
All I'd done since yesterday was to roll off the 10th raise on my A pedal!
To make things worse, my traditional RKL that lowers 5 and 10 to A# now RAISES the pitch of the 10th!! Yes, it's in a 'lower' aperture in the changer (it always has been) yet it's RAISING the pitch to an approximate C!
To make things extra mysterious, there are TWO rods in the raises, yet the only raise I've ever had on 10 has been the standard A pedal pull.
I have turned the nylons endlessly in both directions and cannot get 10 to drop - not to A on RKR, nor to Bb on RKL (that, as I said, now goes sharp!)
Yesterday's smugness has evaporated and has been replaced by a somber 'that'll teach you to dabble where you shouldn't!'
Has anyone any suggestions, please?  |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 10:15 am
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PS:
I should add that certain nylons made the open pitch of the 10th change as I was retuning them. Can't recall which of the four, though.
Some sort of over-tuning problem? I'm at a loss. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 11:33 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
PS:
I should add that certain nylons made the open pitch of the 10th change as I was retuning them. Can't recall which of the four, though.
Some sort of over-tuning problem? I'm at a loss. |
That may be part of it. The first thing I would do is remove that issue from the mix: unscrew all nylon nuts and the split tuning screw for the 10th string so that they have zero effect.
Then divide and conquer. Add back one change at a time and make sure it works right, starting with that problematic lower.
I suspect that the reason that 10th string is raising when it should be lowering is because the lower-return spring is now too tight. It's preventing any lower action at all... and that force has to go somewhere, so it pulls the raise finger instead.
Before changing anything, look at the end plate and the tuners while you work the lever. Then put the guitar upside-down in the case and work the lever. You want to get a visual on the changer movement because you may be able to spot some kind of binding problem.... |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 11:53 am
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That's most helpful, Tucker.
I assume you mean I should turn every nylon anticlockwise as far as they'll go?
I'll start there, then (tomorrow), flip the guitar and see if it's something obvious.
Thanks for answering in such detail. |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 2:05 pm
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Yes, you got it. Turn all the nylon nuts on the 10th string anti-clockwise as well as the split tuning screw until they aren't affecting the changer when you hit a pedal or lever. You don't have to take the nuts all the way off -- just unscrewed quite a bit so they aren't able to do anything.
You want to start the troubleshooting process from that point to make sure one of those nylon nuts isn't too tight and slightly pulling the changer finger out of it's proper neutral position. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 4:36 pm
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Tucker! You saved the day!
First, I turned the nylons; I actually turned a couple too far and they fell on the floor, but that's okay.
Then I flipped the guitar (that's getting harder for me to do nowadays!) and set about tracing the pull-rods.
Two in the 'raises' - one, obviously, was my P3 (A pedal). The second 'raise', mysteriously, is attached to my RKL. I have never, to my certain knowledge, had my RKL do anything to the 10th. It's not beyong the realms of possibility that, in a mad moment, I asked for another pull to be added to my C pedal, but never to RKL.
I've left it there but it's wound off, of course.
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Two rods in the 'lowers' - one was clearly split-tuned to work in tandem with the A pedal (giving a C note0.
The other was the only pull I now want on 10 - RKR lowering the B to an A. (In tandem with my 9th lower, I get a nice A major on the low strings.)
First thing I did was, as you suggested, to returne that B-A lower. It worked like a charm. (Although, in the process, the E-clip fell of the bell-crank so I had to flip the guitar again!)
No problem. I now have P3 (my A pedal) raising only the 5th string. The split with RKL (lowers the Bs) is still fine.
Then I thought I'd reinstate the B to Bb lower on 10. I'm not sure why, because there's no obvious use for it without the A pedal, but I wanted to see if it would work.
It does - RKL = B to A#. And that low A major with RKR is right in tune again.
The mystery of that extra pull remains, though. Maybe, when I have the courage, I'll try winding it clock-wise to see what it does but it can only raise the string, surely?
Many thanks to Buddy Emmons for his 4/5 solution, stolen from his 2004 E9 upgrade. It's just what I wanted.
Thanks mostly to you, Tucker - I'd still be floundering without your help.
_________________
Roger Rettig - Emmons D10s, Quilter TT-12, B-bender Teles and old Martins.
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Last edited by Roger Rettig on 4 Jul 2022 4:58 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 4:47 pm
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| Great, so it sounds like one of the nuts was just overtuned. We've all been there at some point... glad you got it sorted. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 6:36 pm
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| So many times have I heard the phrase "It was working okay 'til I fixed it". |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 7:12 pm
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Everything WAS fine. I had my 4/5 chord with RKR lowering 10 to A and, with split tuning, that lower canceled out the A pedal's raise to C#.
The trouble came when I decided to adopt the Buddy Emmons method and, in winding off the A pedal 10th raise (I thought it would simplify things), I wrought havoc, somehow.
I still don't understand why, though. It should have been easier on the guitar.
Now to fix that LKV!  |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 3 Jul 2022 9:34 pm
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Something was changed in the Split Tuning, And it may be over tensioning the lower return spring.
You may want to take the Split Tuning back to no function in the change, And start tuning procedure again. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 4 Jul 2022 2:53 am
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Bobby
I did what Tucker suggested and wound off all four rods/tuners. I had already backed out the split-tune screw to be sure that the B could lower to A.
I assume that, when I backed off all the nylons, the split was automatically removed
I suppose I should clean things up under there and remove the three non-functioning rods and bell-cranks, if only to reduce the guitar's weight, but I fear for the consequences. Look what happened yesterday when I told myself: 'What could possibly go wrong??'. , |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2022 6:06 am
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| Roger Rettig wrote: |
Bobby
I did what Tucker suggested and wound off all four rods/tuners. I had already backed out the split-tune screw to be sure that the B could lower to A.
I assume that, when I backed off all the nylons, the split was automatically removed
I suppose I should clean things up under there and remove the three non-functioning rods and bell-cranks, if only to reduce the guitar's weight, but I fear for the consequences. Look what happened yesterday when I told myself: 'What could possibly go wrong??'. , |
I feel you Sir... Like peeling an onion... Most of the time, I'm able to stop myself from delving in, but once in a while I fall for the trap laid before me, and then have to ask myself, "What is WRONG with you?, WHAT were you thinking?"
When I completely re-rodded BOTH necks of the Rittenberry I got from Wayne, I waded in with fear and trepidation, knowing there were sharks in there just waiting to take a bite. BUT, I got it done and it played great, the sharks only got a nibble, and a lot was learned from the experience.
I have faith in you Roger, you'll get it.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 4 Jul 2022 6:33 am
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Dale
Armed with the tiny scraps of knowledge gleaned in the last couple of days, I intend to flip the guitar tomorrow and do some work.
First, removing unwanted rods and bell-cranks. Secondly, I want to effect a couple of changes, one being C6th pedal 4. It gets no use. I have a notion to raise both Es to F but I also want to look at Doug Jernigan's mystery pedal. That will depend upon what spare rods I have.
A big switch will be to change my current LKL1 (just behind the rear apron) with LKL2 (mounted more to the centre of the guitar). LKL2 currently raises 7,2, and 1 but I find that fully engaging it means touching LKL1 and my Es flatten slightly. It was pointed out to me that switching them would give the three-string raise all the room it needs and my Es to D# will only be a couple of inches further in than it is now.
Again, I'll need the right length rod - LKL1 only has two at present. I have plenty of bell-cranks.
Pretty brave of me, you might think, but my 'bullet-proof vest' is the fact that my dear friend Russ Wever is currently working just 100 miles east of here. If I truly make a pig's ear of it, Russ is willing to help out.
Russ has been of inestimable help to me in the 22 years since I first met him (in every way, not just this stuff). Russ is one of our community's stand-up guys. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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