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Topic: adding tube preamp to solid state amps |
Greg Koenig
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 30 Jun 2022 3:32 pm |
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| I'm looking for info on the tone benefits of adding a tube preamp in the effects loop on any of my evans or peavey steel amps. I'm lost here I was think of adding a Sarno V8 or the Classic. How would that work? |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 30 Jun 2022 4:34 pm
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I have done this with Evans (though not tube) and Sarno preamps and just plug the Preamp into the power Amp in. Never had any luck plugging the Preamp into the channel inputs of any amp.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 1 Jul 2022 2:08 am
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I've "played around" with tube preamps and solid state power amps and Peavey steel amps. Didn't do anything for me.
I'm convinced that the power amp must also be tube to make a real difference.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Danny Letz
From:
Old Glory,Texas, USA 79540
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Posted 1 Jul 2022 10:30 am
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| Why not just try a Sarno Black Box? |
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Greg Koenig
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2022 12:00 pm
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| Seems like the tube preamp is best used with a power amp like carvin or straight ahead. |
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Greg Koenig
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2022 12:03 pm
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| Danny I have considered the black box but am doing more research. I am using this with guitar as much or more than my steel. Thanks |
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Chris Willingham
From:
Tulsa, Oklahoma
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Posted 1 Jul 2022 12:24 pm
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I'm running a blackbox>V8>TT12 combo, using the "FullQ" setting on the TT12 and I love it. Sounds and feels like tubes to me. For ampless gigs I go BB>V8 straight into the board and its great too. The V8 really is a magic box.
_________________
Fiddle, banjo and steel for Tennessee Jet, Blaine Bailey
2021 MSA Legend XL Signature S10 5X6 brown burst
Beard Josh Swift Sig, the purple one
Lap King Rodeo
p2p Bad Dawg 1x12, Quilter TT12 and a bunch of fiddles |
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Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 1 Jul 2022 7:27 pm
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| I have several rack mount tube preamps and a couple black boxes. The tube preamp is full featured and works fine at channel inputs or to the power amp. More tone control using it in ft but that's subjective. The black box is made for front of amp and really warms up any amp. |
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George Redmon
From:
Muskegon & Detroit Michigan.
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Posted 2 Jul 2022 11:13 am
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| Danny I have considered the black box but am doing more research. I am using this with guitar as much or more than my steel. Thanks |
OK....and unless you're using a board, overdrive, compression etc, what difference would that make exactly greg? Guitar or steel, I think advice 'round these here parts would be to go with Brad's Black Box. Unless there's somethin' we're a missin'.  |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2022 12:02 pm
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As a long time amp tech - I discourage this after talking to most potential customers about the sound they want.
Most are "hearing" tube output stages. That's the "guts" of tube amp tone.
I think they do little OR sound "buzzy".
If you want to get the warmth of a tube amp - buy q tube amp. I play through a Deluxe Reverb, or Concert, Or Bandmaster head with various cabinets. Friends have brought SS amps over - including some with tube preamps - and there's a huge difference in sound with a full tube amp.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 2 Jul 2022 1:47 pm
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| Jim Sliff wrote: |
As a long time amp tech - I discourage this after talking to most potential customers about the sound they want.
Most are "hearing" tube output stages. That's the "guts" of tube amp tone.
I think they do little OR sound "buzzy".
If you want to get the warmth of a tube amp - buy q tube amp. I play through a Deluxe Reverb, or Concert, Or Bandmaster head with various cabinets. Friends have brought SS amps over - including some with tube preamps - and there's a huge difference in sound with a full tube amp. |
That agrees with my earlier comment:
I'm convinced that the power amp must also be tube to make a real difference.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Greg Koenig
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2022 4:58 pm
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Jim,
I'm leaning toward the tube amp purchase. I think I'm chasing my tail. |
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Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 2 Jul 2022 5:18 pm
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| If money was no object i would get Mike's P2P amplifier. Seen it in person with Randy Beavers playing at the Kansas show. Beautiful tone. Look up P2P amplifiers in Nashville. |
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Dave Grafe
From:
Hudson River Valley NY
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Posted 5 Jul 2022 4:57 am
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If you like your rig but want to warm up the sound put a Steel Guitar Black Box beyween the pickup and VP. That's all you need to do, but it's important that the pickup sees the tube's grid before the signal hits the solid state elements.
Or just get your hands on a decent BF Twin Reverb Amp |
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Gil James
From:
Louisiana, USA
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Posted 5 Jul 2022 12:02 pm Amp.
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| Or,if your on a tight budget, scour the pawnshops, for a Randall Rg200g3.. .there's a bunch out there. About a third of the price of a Fender tube amp. It has a 12at7 pre amp in front of a 200w MOSFET power amp. Pretty sweet sounding ,clean headroom,with 2×12s. Great Guitar and steel sleeper amp. |
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Patrick Huey
From:
Nacogdoches, Texas, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2022 11:55 am
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| Jack Stoner wrote: |
| Jim Sliff wrote: |
As a long time amp tech - I discourage this after talking to most potential customers about the sound they want.
Most are "hearing" tube output stages. That's the "guts" of tube amp tone.
I think they do little OR sound "buzzy".
If you want to get the warmth of a tube amp - buy q tube amp. I play through a Deluxe Reverb, or Concert, Or Bandmaster head with various cabinets. Friends have brought SS amps over - including some with tube preamps - and there's a huge difference in sound with a full tube amp. |
That agrees with my earlier comment:
I'm convinced that the power amp must also be tube to make a real difference. |
Jack
not necessarily….depends on what you want to use the amp for….I have a Randall V2 that’s 12ax7 & 12at7 preamp tubes and 400 watt MOSFETT power amp section that’s absolutely awesome for anything from light fuzz/crunch classic rock to voluminous metal distortion and just drools high gain however I wouldn’t recommend it for pedal steel.
_________________
Pre RP Mullen D10 8/7, Zum 3/4, Carter S-10 3/4, previous Cougar SD-10 3/4 & GFI S-10 3/4, Fender Steel King, 2 Peavey Session 500's, Peavey Nashville 400, Boss DD-3, Profex-II, Hilton Digital Sustain, '88 Les Paul Custom,Epiphone MBIBG J-45, Fender Strat & Tele's, Takamine acoustics, Marshall amps, Boss effects, Ibanez Tube Screamer, and it all started with an old cranky worn out Kay acoustic you could slide a Mack truck between the strings and fretboard on!! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Jul 2022 4:41 pm
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I remain unconvinced that there's a significant enough difference in the sound of tubes vs. solid state when used for pedal steel. There's a clear advantage for guitar, where you really need that overdrive-sustain. But for steel, I can't see it (or rather "hear it" in a band situation). I used Fender tube amps for 20-25 years, but grew tired of the weight, the lower reliability, and the increased maintenance costs. Maybe, if I played at Paul's or Lloyd's level, I could justify it. But since I'm not doing studio work for a living, I know that the amplifier sound I'm getting is plenty good enough, and that I'd benefit more from improving my technique.
IMHO, you don't need a Ferrari for work unless you're racing for a living.  |
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Larry Dering
From:
Missouri, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2022 6:05 pm
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| Donny, I would like to agree with you but I'm doing battle between my 2 old Fender Twin Reverbs and a newer Fender Tonemaster Twin. The Tonemaster has been enhanced by using a Sarno Black box. To my ears it improved the tone making it closer to the old Twins. But to me the all tube Twins still rule. I have yet to do a cable swap so I can compare the actual speakers influence on the tone. As soon as I make a cable for the Tonemaster I will get a better idea. Jack Stoner may be correct, they need a tube power amp section to really complete the sound. |
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Bud Angelotti
From:
Larryville, NJ, USA
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Posted 6 Jul 2022 6:32 pm
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Another for the black box. Peavys are great amps. Add a BB and you will probably love it. Or, as has been said, just get a tube amp and hear which floats your bot.
_________________
Just 'cause I look stupid, don't mean I'm not. |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 6 Jul 2022 6:44 pm
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| Larry Dering wrote: |
| Donny, I would like to agree with you but I'm doing battle between my 2 old Fender Twin Reverbs and a newer Fender Tonemaster Twin. The Tonemaster has been enhanced by using a Sarno Black box. To my ears it improved the tone making it closer to the old Twins. But to me the all tube Twins still rule. |
I would suggest you record the SS and tube amps and see if you can still hear a significant difference. I've known and heard tons of players down through the years, but I don't know of any that could definitively tell whether or not a tube amp was being used on a pedal steel recording just by listening. |
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Patrick Huey
From:
Nacogdoches, Texas, USA
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Posted 7 Jul 2022 5:00 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
I remain unconvinced that there's a significant enough difference in the sound of tubes vs. solid state when used for pedal steel. There's a clear advantage for guitar, where you really need that overdrive-sustain. But for steel, I can't see it (or rather "hear it" in a band situation). I used Fender tube amps for 20-25 years, but grew tired of the weight, the lower reliability, and the increased maintenance costs. Maybe, if I played at Paul's or Lloyd's level, I could justify it. But since I'm not doing studio work for a living, I know that the amplifier sound I'm getting is plenty good enough, and that I'd benefit more from improving my technique.
IMHO, you don't need a Ferrari for work unless you're racing for a living. |
Donny
I agree. Big difference w/ regular guitar due to the overdrive. I can hear a difference w my steel using clean channel on my tube stack amps vs. my Peaveys or Fender steel king the Peavey and Fender sound actually better because they are voiced for steel however w/ my Les Paul no stomp boxes into the solid states compare to the overdrive my high gain tube amps have.
_________________
Pre RP Mullen D10 8/7, Zum 3/4, Carter S-10 3/4, previous Cougar SD-10 3/4 & GFI S-10 3/4, Fender Steel King, 2 Peavey Session 500's, Peavey Nashville 400, Boss DD-3, Profex-II, Hilton Digital Sustain, '88 Les Paul Custom,Epiphone MBIBG J-45, Fender Strat & Tele's, Takamine acoustics, Marshall amps, Boss effects, Ibanez Tube Screamer, and it all started with an old cranky worn out Kay acoustic you could slide a Mack truck between the strings and fretboard on!! |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 7 Jul 2022 10:56 am
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Patrick, I dislike the term "voicing" when discussing amps. To me, the term is only germane for speakers, as we have no practical means of adjusting their frequency response after they're built. An amp is "voiced" by its tone controls, and proper adjustment of them should yield the desired voicing - if the amp is designed with an adequate tone control network. Only with amps that have few tone controls are we relying on the circuitry alone for the desired frequency response, and therefore we can say that those amps are "voiced" for certain instruments.
As to why the solid state amps may sound better (to you) for pedal steel, it's probably because most of us have become accustomed to a very clean sound for them. Most tube amps, even in their "clean" channels, have far more distortion (sometimes, by an order of magnitude) than a comparable solid-state amplifier. That's just the nature of the beast.
Other amp factors, such as harmonic response and frequency phase differentials can be heard by some listeners under controlled circumstances. But these nuances are fairly small, and are usually lost in the cacaphony of a band playing in a live venue.
All IMHO, of course. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 7 Jul 2022 11:42 am
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| Patrick Huey wrote: |
....
not necessarily….depends on what you want to use the amp for….I have a Randall V2 that’s 12ax7 & 12at7 preamp tubes and 400 watt MOSFETT power amp section that’s absolutely awesome for anything from light fuzz/crunch classic rock to voluminous metal distortion and just drools high gain however I wouldn’t recommend it for pedal steel. |
Perhaps, but I've been using TubeWorks/Mosvalve separates and combos amps since the early 90s with pedal steel.
These units use 12AX7s in the preamp and MOSFETS in the power section. Although sometimes I do hear some light artifacts with the big MV500, I love this sound for pedal steel. They also have 2 channels for additional grit and edge as desired, but the clean sound is very nice and warm and only distorted when you want to kick in thr drive channel or stack the two. As a lap/slide and six string guitar noodler, this works well for me.
I think it all works better as a matched preamp/amp system rather than just adding any tube preamp to any SS amp.
Maybe not for the many electronics and tech experts around her, but what do I know......I just know it sounds the way I want it to and I'm way happier with these rigs than most of the other Peavey SS amps I have used. |
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Jack Stoner
From:
Kansas City, MO
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Posted 8 Jul 2022 2:18 am
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Brad's black box is an excellent 'audiophile" preamp. I tried one with a Steelaire rack amp (and EPS-15C speaker) and a stock Nashville 112 amp. Couldn't hear much difference (very little) so I sold it. For those that do hear the difference go for it.
_________________
GFI Ultra Keyless S-10 with pad (Black of course) TB202 amp, Hilton VP, Steelers Choice sidekick seat, SIT Strings
Cakewalk by Bandlab and Studio One V4.6 pro DAWs, MOTU Ultralite MK5 recording interface unit |
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Pete Burak
From:
Portland, OR USA
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Posted 8 Jul 2022 7:14 am
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I just-plain "like to know" that there is a Tube in my Steel rig's signal-path, when I am playing any Solid State amp. It is subtle when I am playing the gig, but I can hear the difference when I listen to recordings of myself playing with various bands.
I have two Steel Guitar Black Boxes, one original, one with the Impedance-Matching knob.
I really like the one with the knob, as it allows me to get the high end just right. I use it on my gigs with other instruments also (Banjo, Dobro, Acoustic Guitar). |
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