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Author Topic:  E9th + C6th = D13th, from D-10 to S-12
b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 11 Jun 2022 8:06 pm    
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For the past few weeks, Roger Rettig and I have been exchanging emails about condensing his copedent from a double 10 to a single 12, using Johnny Cox's D13th approach. Roger plays the Day E9th pedal setup and has 2 LKLs, plus 3 center knee levers on his C6th. Part of the goal was to preserve as much of his muscle memory from the D-10 as possible. Here is the starting point.


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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 11 Jun 2022 8:11 pm     Roger Rettig D13th
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And here's where we are now. It's been a thought experiment up to this point - Roger doesn't have an S-12 to play with yet. This is the chart for a triple raise, double lower S-12. If a changer supports 3 lowers, the low string pulls on P4 are a bit different because you don't have to engage RKR to get the full C6th P5 effect.



Roger and I are both happy to answer any questions about this. He's still shopping for the appropriate S-12 as of this writing.
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Last edited by b0b on 11 Jun 2022 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 11 Jun 2022 8:57 pm     seen as numbers
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When I first started tuning to D, I had a hard time transposing from E9th and C6th. I found it useful to think of the copedent in terms of the major scale on each neck. Here is a comparison of Roger's D-10 to the proposed S-12 in terms of scale numbers.

On the E9th front neck, E is 1, F# is 2, G# is 3, B is 5, etc.

On the C6th back neck, C is 1, E is 3, G is 5, etc.

On the D13th S-12, D is 1. With scale numbers, you can see the relationships between the tunings more easily because you don't have transpose them.




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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2022 3:33 am    
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I'm indebted to b0b for his persistence and for all the time he's taken fine-tuning things.

Firstly, though, thank you, Johnny Cox for your original idea. It appealed to me as soon as I saw it. Pitching the base tuning between E9 and C6 is a perfect compromise.

b0b, of course, plays a D6 setup so he's already at home with that concept.

It's true that, right now, I have no guitar to try it on. Ideally, it needs triple-raise/triple-lower which limits my options. It can be done with 3/2, though.

Unlike Johnny's current D13, I wanted to retain the old P7; I enjoy the sound of the pedal bending the strings into the maj7add9.

There could well be changes to come but we're close.

Thanks, too, to my friends Doug Livingston (Earnest Bovine) and Rick Schmidt - two superb musicians who shared their copedants and whose counsel is always worth listening to.

We welcome any suggestions, of course, but I'm particularly pleased with the way b0b replicated my current D-10 layout, making a transition much more comfortable.

It'll be odd, though, not having my favourite KL (Bs to A#); it's now on P4 but handily adjacent to my A pedal.
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Tom Gorr

 

From:
Three Hills, Alberta
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2022 4:55 am    
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Looking forward to the rest of the experiment - particularly the adaptation to the new grips required.

I love the string density of this tuning - particularly think it would be handy to play "Hammond".
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2022 5:11 am    
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Tim

I love how it's now one tuning. Certainly, learning new grips will be part of the challenge as will the different 'feel' under my right hand with 12 rather than 10.

I also love the fact that, on strings 3,4,5,6 I can get I nice compact 7th chord by just raising th B (5th) string. And, with pedals down, the same raise will give me an accurate sus4, again in that tight group of strings.

There's much more to it, of course, and I can't wait to get started. Unfortunately, delivery times have lengthened so I'll have to.
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2022 7:24 am    
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Not to deflect b0b's thread but, given my new project, I was amused to find this old thread from 2018 in which I insisted that I was 'too old to go to a 12-string'. Smile

I'm now four years older; maybe it's something they've put in the City's water-supply!

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=336365&highlight=gary+carter
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2022 7:42 am    
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Consider Excel Superb 12 string models as well. Mitsuo's changers have way ample options for rodding changes. Can't say offhand but at least 4/5 and likely more than that. Having played a few unis over the years although it can be done with only 2 lowers, it can get tedious and crowded.

I wouldn't want a 12 string uni or tuning like you are considering with less than 3 lowers.
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2022 8:44 am    
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I have, Jerry, but they've been a bit reluctant to respond to my messages. They were my first thought, in fact, when I learned how long the wait was for an MSA.

Bill Rudolph is a strong contender but, even with Williams, it's going to take a while.
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Jerry Overstreet


From:
Louisville Ky
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2022 11:00 am    
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I might have figured you had considered Excel Roger. Good luck lining up your new guitar and configuration. Good thoughts for your health as well.
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Dennis Montgomery


From:
Western Washington
Post  Posted 12 Jun 2022 11:34 am    
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Hi Roger & b0b,

As someone who's owned a Mullen G2 SD12 for 4 years and made many copedent changes, I can say with a 3 raise/3 lower changer and super easy adjustment design it could be a great fit for this new tuning.

Like most builders, their new order wait time is at least 6 months but Gary from Sill Music has an active ad up for a brand new G2 7x5 U12. Looks like you'd need to order some extra hardware from Mullen to make the D13 work as you illustrated it. An extra pull rod for that 4 string pull on P5, 2 extra rods for the 4 string pull on P7 and a second LKL with 2 pull rods, but it could be very close to the 12 string you're looking for and appears to be available now Winking

https://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=381178
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Lee Gauthier


From:
Victoria, BC, Canada
Post  Posted 13 Jun 2022 1:24 pm    
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Love seeing how others have approached D13.

If you like to strum one nice tweak I have on mine is putting E -> D# instead of D -> D# on P7. You can strum the #9 chord on strings 3 to 8.

It also gives you some nice Larry Breaux style quartal voicing options on string 8 6 4 (E A D) and (Eb A D) on the same string set with P7 down. Those voicing aren't missing on your current copedent, but it's nice when you don't need to change grips to get both voicings.
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Johnny Cox


From:
Williamsom WVA, raised in Nashville TN, Lives in Hallettsville Texas
Post  Posted 13 Jun 2022 1:43 pm     Edited chart
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Have fun with the tuning Roger. I have actually added the 7th pedal equivalent back to my guitar. 8x6 is the best for me.

Note: the first chart I put up had a couple mistakes so I fixed them. Maybe b0b can make one more understandable. One other note. I tune the LKLI lowering the Ds sort of like a normal RKR with strings 2 & 9. The low D doesn't start moving until the 4th string is already at Db. I use split tuners just like everyone is use to.


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Last edited by Johnny Cox on 19 Jul 2022 10:09 am; edited 3 times in total
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 13 Jun 2022 2:48 pm    
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Johnny

I saw that you'd left P7 off at one stage and said the same notes were available on strings 1 and 2. But I so love the sound when we hear the middle strings being pedaled up to the maj7 and maj9 that I didn't want to lose it.

I want to switch my LKL with my LKL2. LKL2 raises 1,2 and 8 (previously 7), but it's a long 'throw' and it's sometimes difficult to avoid touching LKL and slightly flattening the Es (now Ds, of course). Putting LKL further under the guitar and having LKL2 in its own space will stop that happening.

I should have done it on my Emmons years ago but I just lived with it. Sad
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 13 Jun 2022 7:03 pm    
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Here's the same D13th for a changer that allows 3 lowers. Notice strings 10 and 11. That's where the 3 lowers come into play.



Tunable splits:
<pre>
String 4: LKL1+P6 = D#
String 6: p3+p4 = A#
String 9: LKL1+P7 = D (the raise and lower should cancel each other out)
String 11: p3+p4 = A# </pre>
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2022 3:56 am    
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Lee - an interesting suggestion: I'll look at that.

Dennis: thanks. Nice to chat with you.
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Dennis Montgomery


From:
Western Washington
Post  Posted 14 Jun 2022 8:21 am    
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Same here Roger Winking
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Hear my latest album, "Celestial" featuring a combination of Mullen SD12 and Synthesizers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhh6b_xXTx4&list=PLfXm8aXRTFz0x-Sxso0NWw493qAouK

Hear my album, "Armistice" featuring Fender 400 on every song:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2Pz_GXhvmjne7lPEtsplyW

Hear my Pedal Steel Only playlist featuring Mullen G2 SD12 on covers like Candyman, Wild Horses, Across the Universe & more...
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfXm8aXRTFz2f0JOyiXpZyzNrvnJObliA
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2022 4:52 am    
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Now I'm questioning my P7 (old P8 ); there's an E note - a 4th - at string 8 which has no place in the B7#9 (A7#9 on C6).

Perhaps I should lower it to C# and add a 9th tone there?
=================
We've now changed LKL1 and LKL2; that will solve the problem of brushing against my D-C# lower when engaging the three string raise on LKL2. If I had the rods, I'd change that right now on my Emmons D-10.

The latest chart:


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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2022 8:09 am    
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Roger Rettig wrote:
Now I'm questioning my P7 (old P8 ); there's an E note - a 4th - at string 8 which has no place in the B7#9 (A7#9 on C6).

Perhaps I should lower it to C# and add a 9th tone there?

That middle E is there for E9th compatibility. If it doesn't bother you when using the "F Lever" (your LKR), what difference does it make on P7?

Compared to a D-10, the big difference in D13th is an extra string in both tunings. It's like adding a middle C# to E9th and adding a middle D to C6th. Your right hand has to learn new grips to play it like an E9th or like a C6th. This may be the strongest argument for the E9/B6 model when compared to D13th. You don't have to learn new grips.

FWIW, I played a 12-string C6th with a middle D for several years and never found the extra note in the P8 chord to be a problem.
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2022 8:44 am    
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When I use P8 on the D10 I will sometimes restore that #9 to a major 3rd with my MKR to get an A9.

With the D13, though, a low-pitched B9 is available with the 'E9' pedals and knees, so my momentary dilemma (not being able to use P7 and LKR together - physically impossible?) has disappeared.
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2022 9:49 am    
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The thing that you can't do is lower the 4th string by itself, like lowering high C to B on C6th. Instead, you have to use the 2nd string to get that note (now C#), which is the 9th tone of your P7 chord.

Grips change on the D13th. It's might be easier to start from scratch on D13th than to transition from a lifetime of D-10. Everybody's different, though. Some people adapt to different tunings easier than others.
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2022 10:11 am    
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I expect a steep learning-curve but I welcome the challenge.

E9 is a great tuning but it lacks bottom-end. Even ext E9 would take getting used to but, if I'm going to 'shake hands' with 12 strings, a transition to D13th would really pay off. I believe it to be the perfect 12-string setup.

My one worry was that I might not be able to use the LKs with pedals beyond #4, even though I realize that is an unlikely scenario. I just sat at my D10 and found I could easily press pedal 7 and engage my current LKL2 to its full extent.

End of that issue and yes, I get that, with P7, the C# is available on the second string. I have all notes charted now in every position.

It'll be a bit of a wait for a new guitar but, thanks to b0b (and to Johnny for his original notion), I think the setup is where it needs to be.
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Lee Gauthier


From:
Victoria, BC, Canada
Post  Posted 16 Jun 2022 6:35 pm    
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I'm not sure if the lever spacing on your guitar but I have pretty short legs and P7 + LKR is a pretty easy combo on mine, but it does give you mostly the same voicing as A+F. I can use the LKLs on my guitar up to P5.
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 17 Jun 2022 2:27 am    
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Agreed, Lee - probably a non-issue. I'm told that the 2-3" difference in length between a keyless and a key-head guitar also makes a difference in this regard.

I've run the combinations in my head and can't see why I'want to combine the LKs with the further-right pedals.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 18 Jun 2022 10:46 am    
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I think from a mechanical "options" aspect, for such a tuning, I would consider not only to have an inside-front LKL added to the the outside-rear LKL, but also two LKV's in between with canceling-changes (meaning, changes one will never want to play at the same time, like lowering the A's and raising the A's).

That gives one 5 changes on the left knee which are easy to get used to, and are on today's guitars NO problem to have mechanically.

Evidently the E9th B-pedal also is a change that carries over into B6th, with will still occur as E9th has the E-drop.
Likewise the A6th (A&B) down 6th tuning ought to be taken into account and could be expanded upon, even thou the E9th Eb drop and the Bb drop on the top B does in "ESSENCE" what pedals 5 & 6 do on a BE C6th chord.

So, I would not only think E9 or E13th but keep in mind that the B6th and A6th angeles are still there. This may generated places to place changes (in the style of C6th) over different base chords, E13, A6, B6.?

And I have a funny feeling, that was some of Zane Beck's thinking when he came out with 5P & PK E13th

... J-D.
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