Limiter pedal for steel guitar being mic'd

Wiz Feinberg · From: Mid-Michigan, USA

I know about compressors and have played through them in the past. I don't anymore. However, I play in a couple of large acts that are using digital boards and have occasional complaints from the engineers about me overdriving the input channel on the mixer when I play too loud. This can be destructive to the electronics. It has been suggested that I look into a limiter pedal after my volume pedal.

Can anybody in a similar situation recommend a low noise limiter that stays out of action until I hit a certain peak volume on my volume pedal? Then it should brickwall at that volume. No pumping or compression until that point so my volume pedal action stays normal. No further increase in volume after hitting the peak.

They usually take a direct out from my Nashville 112 to the digital mixer.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Not your problem. It's up to those "engineers" to handle the signal at their end. There is no way that your DI output can be too hot if they know how to operate their board, digital or not Smile

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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

I agree with Ian. Sounds like an input gain adjustment issue at the mixer end that should be taken care of at sound check. Plus, it’s a digital board with no built-in limiter? Should be able to just slap one on your channel, if that’s what the engineer (term used loosely here) wants.

Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

Yes, as Ian and Fred replied. The board has gain and slider controls. Probably compression control on each channel. If not, they need a better board.
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Wiz Feinberg · From: Mid-Michigan, USA

I am sorry I asked this on here.
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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

Don't be sorry, Wiz. We'd hate you to be given the runaround by idiots.
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Wiz Feinberg · From: Mid-Michigan, USA

Seriously, does anybody use a limiter between the volume pedal and amp to prevent clipping the board? I need a recommendation for one to keep the peace with the sound man. There isn't a limiter on the mixer inputs, just afterward.
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

You could use a Boss compressor as a limiter after your VP. Work with setting the attack to allow for dynamics, and adjust the threshold to suit your sound guy. The sustain might sound a little odd when you reach the threshold level and keep pumping the VP, but who knows maybe you’ll like it.

Really, you just want a maximum volume for your volume pedal. Seems a little redundant, because what is VP’s job, after all. But maybe it is more convenient to fiddle with pedal knobs than going back and forth to your amp volume controls.

John Ducsai · From: New Hampshire, USA

Are you plugged in to the hi gain or low gain input on the amp ? There's 10db difference there.

The XLR out on the back of the amp is -3.1dBV, 0.7 V RMS - that should not be a problem (at least for any board I've ever used).

What board is the soundman using ?

Behringer CL-9 would be a cheap pedal to try if you must be the one to solve the issue.

Wiz Feinberg · From: Mid-Michigan, USA

John Ducsai · From: New Hampshire, USA

I would plug into the low gain input - that's essentially a -10db pad. The XLR output on the back of the amp is tapped before the power amp section of your amplifier, so adjusting the "Pre Gain" down would also help and if you need more stage volume out of the amp use the "Master Gain" which should not effect the output at the XLR out.

Wiz Feinberg · From: Mid-Michigan, USA

Howard Parker · From: Maryland

Interesting..

My primary setup (N-112) is to set desired playing volume and send the line out feed to a Mackie digital console and then get a personal mix (whole band) back to my IEM's.

Larger venues we'll use the line out for FOH.

Never had an issue where I was punching the console too hard.

fwiw

h
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Paul Sutherland · From: Placerville, California

You could try the Keeley GC-2 Limiting Amplifier. It seems to be a combination of a limiter and a compressor. Someone here on the forum mentioned it in the past and so I tried one. It's now on my pedal board for playing Tele. But it does work for PSG. You can set it to just limit the peaks or you can set it to squish the sound like a compressor.
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George Biner · From: Los Angeles, CA

Hmmm, the line level output of the amp is an XLR? Maybe the soundman is confusing that with a mic signal and is inputting it into a board mic channel? That would overload the board. Most boards except very high end ones have line inputs on 1/4" jacks, not XLRs.

What the soundman should do is forget your amp, get a $20 DI box (which he should already have), plug your post-effects 1/4" cable into it, give you a duplicate signal for your amp, and then take the XLR mic level signal from the DI into his board. That is the proper method. You won't get the sound of the amp, however.

If he has to take the signal from the amp (for the tone, say), he has to make sure it's compatible with the board input he is using -- that's his job, not yours.
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Dennis Detweiler · From: Solon, Iowa, US

George may be right. Line signal to a mic input may be too much for the board. As he said, there should be a line input for each channel also. If the only output signal on your amp is XLR, you can plug an adapter onto the XLR to 1/4, then into the channel line input?
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Wiz Feinberg · From: Mid-Michigan, USA

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

If you really have to use a limiter, I also suggest the Keeley GC2 - https://robertkeeley.com/product/gc-2-limiting-amplifier-compressor/

Some compressors can be effectively used as a limiter, but not all. A true limiter doesn't do anything at all until the signal amplitude hits the threshold level. This Keeley has a dual LED that goes from green to red to tell you when you've hit that threshold. So if you push it hard, you should be able easily see where to set the Threshold, and then set the compression pretty high to squash anything above that level.

Now, I agree with the other comments that you should not be having to do the sound guys' jobs for them. If they know what they're doing, they should be able to set the board up so your XLR line out signal doesn't overload the board at your highest input level. But I suppose if they have a real cheap board that doesn't have a Mic/Line level switch, a choice of Mic/Line level inputs, a signal pad, or a trim pot, then you may have to do something to cut your signal level down. The best way to do this would be to insert a pad between your line out and the board. That way, you can cut the signal to the board without affecting your own amp for monitoring.

If you don't want to fool with all that - as John D. points out - the XLR Line Out is post-EQ but pre-master-volume. So you could set your Master Volume all the way up, and use your Pre-Gain to set your overall volume, which also will set your signal level at the Line Out. If that doesn't get the level low enough at the board, then by all means, use the low-gain input. However you should know that the input impedance of the Low-Gain input is a LOT lower - 68 KOhm vs the 220 KOhm for the High-Gain input. I would have to use a buffer to tolerate a 68 KOhm input impedance to avoid pretty serious 'tone suck'. I even find 220 KOhm a bit low. For example, a typical Fender tube amp has an input impedance of 1 MegOhm (1000 KOhm). Of course, the other issue is that if you have to use such a low gain to keep the board from overloading, your amp may not be loud enough for proper monitoring of your sound, even with the Master Volume turned all the way up.

I have had problems like this with sound guys. Sometimes they can't get enough/any level from me, sometimes they were getting blown away. It's almost always user error of some sort - sometimes they're adjusting the wrong channel on the board, sometimes it's a bad cable, sometimes they don't know how to use the board. Sometimes I just have to give them more or less signal. But I've never had to use a limiter to keep them from overloading. Realize that when you're above the signal threshole point, your signal is going to be very squashed if you set a high compression ratio.

Or you could go back to mic'ing your amp. I really like using line outs, but there have been sound guys that just can't figure out how to deal with it. And they introduce another potential issue - line outs can also be susceptible to ground loop hum if there are grounding issues in the overall setup.

George Biner · From: Los Angeles, CA

Dennis, I agree with you about the adapter into the channel line in -- but still wonder why Peavey amp has a "Line Out" on a XLR? ---- maybe it's not a line out ....

The user manual for that amp, on page 6, it says "balanced, low impedance output" -- this implies a mic-type signal. Then, on page 10, it says "load impedance: 5kohm or greater. nominal output level 0.7Vrms" -- both numbers imply a line-type signal.

I think it;s probably a line out since that's what the specs say.

Next gig, I would subtly find out which input the cable is being plugged into.
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Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Here is what the NV 112 manual says about the XLR line out:

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Worst case or maybe best case scenario, not a Limiter but rather a Compressor, which in full bloom IS or can be a Limiter .

A Limiter cuts OFF signal while a Compressor Squashes it, but its still there, folded back into the original sound envelope.

Typically Compressors TAME peaks which sounds like what you desire. The trick to a Compressor is to set it so it TAMES peaks but you can't actually hear it working. Recording Engineers use Compressors and they can see it working on the meters but not necessarily HEAR it working. BALANCE.

I would suggest adding a Quality Compressor , not a Limiter. See if that helps with the situation.

Oh yeah, all Compressors are not equal . I use a Keeley every now and then but do keep in mind, they take some practice and understanding to dial in. Compressors are the easiest accessory to use poorly Sad

Give it a try , they are great TOOLS to have in your gig bag.

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Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

Perhaps a low-tech solution would be to simply hang a microphone, like a Sennheiser e 609, in front of the amp.

Dave Grafe · From: Hudson River Valley NY

K Maul · From: Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL

Fred Treece · From: California, USA

How about patching your volume pedal into the Post EQ input? That would keep the gain level steady, and maybe solve the line out problem without having to go to the low gain input.

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