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Topic: Advice for an old new student? |
Jon Snyder
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 14 Nov 2021 7:21 pm |
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I'm new to the forum and thinking of taking up pedal steel. My 6 string guitar is idle as my left hand does not fret as well as it used to. But I never was a finger picker either so that makes me pretty much a total beginner.
As a complete beginner I'm looking for advice on selection of a guitar. At 74 there aren't that many shopping days 'til Christmas as Jack Nicholson said. Some questions come up after reading the info on this forum and the six magazines I bought with membership. I think a single 10 with 3 pedals and 4 levers seems to be about as much I will likely absorb in the foreseeable future. Once set up in the house it will be there until I assume room temperature. That said:
Is a double body with a single neck and a pad a good idea? Or just a single neck/no pad single body?
Is a metal neck or wood neck preferred? Only saw that option on one manufacturer.
Even if there were a supply in Nevada to go try out, I wouldn't know the difference. So ballparking it, I see the following benchmarks. A Mullen Discovery $2,500 -- Williams S10 $3,500 -- MSA Legend S10 $4,800 not counting freight or options. All new pricing and they all look good to a novice. That's quite a price spread, but maybe not.
Secondly, private in-person lessons (may not be available) or online courses?
Thirdly, amplifier choice.
$1,499.00 Quilter Labs Travis Toy 15 Steel Guitar Amplifier
$1,099.99 Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb 100W 2x12 Celestion NEO Creamback Amplifier
$ 600.00 Used Fender Steel King
Any advice anyone cares to share would be greatly appreciated. |
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Bill Moore
From:
Manchester, Michigan
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David Dorwart
From:
Orlando, Florida, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 6:28 am
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| If money is no object then get a top of the line guitar from Mullen Williams GFI etc. That’s kind of like getting a new Mercedes 500 series as a first car at age 16. Nice if you can afford it but really? This is something you may or may not have an aptitude for both physically and mentally. Perhaps one of the student models from the above mentioned guitar makers would be a good start - not cheap but a quality instrument you can learn on to see if it is for you. I had a Carter Starter that I played for a few years before its limitations frustrated me to the point of abandoning it for several years before getting back into it again. It served its purpose. I learned from it that I can do this and I didn’t need to spend thousands to learn that. But if you’ve got that kind of $ to spend on something that may turn out to be folly then go for it |
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Benjamin Davidson
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 6:37 am
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I can't recommend a Justice enough for a fella starting out. The Jr. has the same undercarriage as their pro models, just a simplified all-pull changer. I own and am very happy with the Pro Lite, which is a frame and a half with a pad. Great guitars.
http://www.justicesteelguitars.com/S10%20Jr.html
http://www.justicesteelguitars.com/Pro%20Lite.html
As to Metal or wood necks, most builders are aluminum necks, only the lacquered guitars justify the wood neck. Tone is debatable between the two.
For online courses, I'm very happy with the Paul Franklin Method.
https://www.mmmlearn.com/courses/the-paul-franklin-method-e9-c6
I completed the E9th Foundations course first, and that helped incredibly.
https://www.modernmusicmasters.com/paul-franklin-e9-foundations
I have not had the privilege of on site private lessons to compare.
As to the amplifier, I would start with what you have for 6 string guitar. Let your technique develop before you start testing out amplifiers. The Quilter and Tone Master Twin are great starting points.
Don't underestimate the accessories you'll need to also get started:
-Volume Pedal. Most Guitar Volume pedals will get you started. Eventually, most steel players move onto something specific for us. Start playing with the volume pedal on day one.
-The Bar. I use a standard Dunlop bar.
-Finger and Thumb Picks. I'm also using standard Dunlop picks.
-Seat. This could be a dinning room chair to begin with. I'm using an art stool or a drum throne at the moment. Eventually you may want a proper steel seat with comparments for things.
_________________
Justice Pro-Lite (9p9k) 10 String D13th Universal Tuning |
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Mike Ritchie
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 7:01 am
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| What Benjamin said, check out the Justice site and reach out to Ron Anderson. I love my Justice. |
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Karl Paulsen
From:
Chicago
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 7:21 am
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I really like the pad on my Zum Encore S10 and I appreciate the lighter weight of it's single wide body. I highly recommend a single wide body with detachable pad.
If whatever guitar you choose doesn't have this option, there are a couple nice aftermarket options for pads that will attach quickly to the legs of the guitar.
Good luck on your journey into the Pedal Steel!
_________________
Nickel and Steel. Sad Songs and Steel Guitar.
https://www.facebook.com/NickelandSteel
Chicago Valley Railroad. Trainspotting and Bargain Hunting...
https://chicagovalleyrailroad.blogspot.com/
Last edited by Karl Paulsen on 15 Nov 2021 7:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 7:21 am
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A big thing to keep in mind is that most new guitars need to be ordered and built to your specifications, and the wait time can be considerable. It was 5 months for my Williams, from finalized order to arrival on my doorstep. On the other hoof, you could be playing a good used instrument from a reputable seller in a couple weeks.
Also, ergonomics are very important for older beginners. The main things to get right are deck height of the guitar and seat height. Most everything else falls into place after that, but without it, almost nothing works out. Sore shoulders, sore back, sore legs, and sore butt add up to not much fun and not much music getting played. There will alway be adjustments to be made on a new (or new-used) pedal steel to get it to fit your body and play as easily as possible, but getting it close to what you need from the seller really helps get you started.
Amp - something with a headphone output might be merciful for others in the household.
Lessons - Yeah, go for the Franklin course if you can afford it.
Good luck, and don’t let Ol’ Jack tell you that you can’t handle the truth 🤠|
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 7:28 am
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I recommend patience in picking a pedal steel. New guitars are great, but you pay for the privilege. Good (and sometimes not so good) used guitars roll in and out here on the forum. You need to be quick on the good ones - there are a bunch of people who buy them for re-sale at a higher price. But better to lose out than get a turkey. Take your time, ask questions, and don't pull the trigger until you're pretty sure you know what you have.
I also recommend starting out with a modern, all-pull guitar. Most modern professional-level guitars feature at least a 3-raise/2-lower changer, and if you're paying at that level, I'd insist on at least that level of changer, if not more. As Ben mentions, the Justice Pro Jr. is a very well priced guitar with a professional-grade changer but only a 2-raise/1-lower capability. But I could put all of my important changes on that changer.
Ergonomics is important. Are you tall, medium, or short? I'm tall (6' 3" these days, I'm shrinking, I started out at 6'4"). I really need at least a single-and-a-half wide body, but prefer a double-wide body and always raise them at least 2" over standard height. Someone short may have a completely different take. The only issue with the Justice Jr. as a sit-down guitar for me is the size. I have seriously thought about getting one as a stand-up pedal steel.
As Bill and Ben stated, you don't really need an expensive amp to start out practicing. Clean guitar amps work fine. Old Fenders like blackface/silverface Princeton/Deluxe/Pro/Twin etc. work great. Bandits, Special 130, Pacer, and so on are fine and cheaply obtained. I picked up a $45 Peavey Studio Pro 50 last month off Craigslist - replaced a $2 4558 op-amp chip for the reverb and put a better reverb unit in it, and it's fantastic. I have lots of amps, but I've been using this for both Telecaster and pedal/non-pedal steel practice and gigs since. Probably my favorite of all the Peavey guitar amps. Even a little Backstage or Backstage Plus work fine around the house for practicing.
Obviously, you need a few decent thumb picks, some finger picks, a bar, and volume pedal. I like Fred Kelly Regular thumb picks, I've tried most everything. Dunlop finger picks are fine to start with (and pretty comfortable, unlike the old-school Nationals - .020 is a nice compromise between comfort and good tone production). I'd get at least a 7/8" diameter, 3-3/8" long bar, but I have large hands and prefer a 15/16" bar at least 3-1/2" or 3-5/8" long. Even an old Ernie Ball volume pedal works at first, but most pedal steel players like at least a 500K Ohm potentiometer, and many insist on an active volume pedal like a Hilton or Telonics. Like the amp, this is something one can worry about later.
There are tons of options on instruction. Aside from Tim McCasland's video tapes, I learned mostly from the web and forum until I went to Mike Sweeney's bootcamp after several years in.
IMO, the most important issue at the very start is getting a pedal steel that is right for you. A bad machine can make the task of learning even more daunting than it is. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 7:28 am
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Jon, one additional consideration that may affect your choice(s) is whether you plan on gigging out or just playing at home. If you plan on gigging, weight becomes an issue, especially at our age. (I'm only 4 yrs behind you). Even being optimistic, it could be a year or two before you are gig-ready, and that 70 lbs you can heft now may feel like 100 lbs in a few years A single neck on a double-neck body (SD10) with padding is going to weigh a lot more than a S10. If you'll never leave your home with it, the padded SD10 may be more comfortable to play, but schlepping it to and from gigs is a different story.
The same is true with choice of amps. There are several light yet powerful amps. In addition to the Fender ToneMaster, there's a lot of buzz about the ToneBlock 202....But, you may find that your existing guitar amp is perfectly adequate for home use. I get excellent tone out of my Roland Cube 80XL at home. It just doesn't have the oomph for gigs. Depending on your current guitar amp, this may be a decision you can kick down the road.
If you have the budget, I don't think you'll be disappointed with any of the new instruments you're considering. |
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Jon Snyder
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 8:49 am
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| Thanks for the responses. Mulling it all over. |
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Jon Snyder
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 9:09 pm
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| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
I also recommend starting out with a modern, all-pull guitar. Most modern professional-level guitars feature at least a 3-raise/2-lower changer, and if you're paying at that level, I'd insist on at least that level of changer, if not more. As Ben mentions, the Justice Pro Jr. is a very well priced guitar with a professional-grade changer but only a 2-raise/1-lower capability. But I could put all of my important changes on that changer. |
What exactly does 3-raise/2-lower that mean? The Justice Jr says it comes with a 3 raise and 3 lower changer. I thought pedals and levers was what that meant. Are those two different things? If a guitar has 6 pedals and 6 levers does it have to have a 6 raise and 6 lower changer?
Thanks for the input. |
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Jon Snyder
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 9:21 pm
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| Benjamin Davidson wrote: |
Don't underestimate the accessories you'll need to also get started:
-Volume Pedal. Most Guitar Volume pedals will get you started. Eventually, most steel players move onto something specific for us. Start playing with the volume pedal on day one.
-The Bar. I use a standard Dunlop bar.
-Finger and Thumb Picks. I'm also using standard Dunlop picks.
-Seat. This could be a dinning room chair to begin with. I'm using an art stool or a drum throne at the moment. Eventually you may want a proper steel seat with comparments for things. |
It's always the extras that sneak up on you.HaHa Is the volume pedal used as an effects type pedal? Don't they have a volume control on the guitar?
Thanks for the input. |
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Jon Snyder
From:
Nevada, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 9:36 pm
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| David Dorwart wrote: |
| I had a Carter Starter that I played for a few years before its limitations frustrated me to the point of abandoning it for several years before getting back into it again. It served its purpose. I learned from it that I can do this and I didn’t need to spend thousands to learn that. But if you’ve got that kind of $ to spend on something that may turn out to be folly then go for it |
I hear you. That's why I'm weighing the options.
Thanks for the input. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 15 Nov 2021 11:04 pm
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| Jon Snyder wrote: |
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
I also recommend starting out with a modern, all-pull guitar. Most modern professional-level guitars feature at least a 3-raise/2-lower changer, and if you're paying at that level, I'd insist on at least that level of changer, if not more. As Ben mentions, the Justice Pro Jr. is a very well priced guitar with a professional-grade changer but only a 2-raise/1-lower capability. But I could put all of my important changes on that changer. |
What exactly does 3-raise/2-lower that mean? The Justice Jr says it comes with a 3 raise and 3 lower changer. I thought pedals and levers was what that meant. Are those two different things? If a guitar has 6 pedals and 6 levers does it have to have a 6 raise and 6 lower changer?
Thanks for the input. |
This is a picture of the changer end of an older MSA D-10, which is now for sale on the Forum.
You can see 10 columns of 4 holes for each neck. Each column of holes is associated with one of the 10 strings. The 4 holes in each column are separated into groups of two, an upper group and a lower group. This particular changer has the capability to raise a string two ways and lower the same string two ways. This would be called a “2 raise/2 lower†changer. Some of the holes have hex shaped nuts in them. These are attached to rods that are part of the mechanism doing the pulling that either raises or lowers the pitch of a string when a pedal or lever is activated. The hex nuts can be turned with a wrench in order to tune the strings to the pitch they are being changed to by activating pedal or lever.
Pedals and levers both have the capability to raise or lower a string.
Dave has recommended that you get a guitar with a 3/3 changer. This would mean a column of 6 holes for every string. So if you get an instrument with 3 pedals and 4 levers, a 3-raise/3-lower changer allows for more options for what those pedals and levers can do, as well as allowing for adding more in the future if you so desire.
I’m sure the answer to your question is more complicated, but that is the basic gist. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 16 Nov 2021 3:17 am
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| Quote: |
| What exactly does 3-raise/2-lower that mean? |
This is different than the number of pedals and levers on a guitar. An n-raise, m-lower changer can, in principle, raise each string in n different ways, and can lower a string in m different ways, where n and m are positive integers. So on a 3-raise, 2-lower changer, 3 pedals or levers can be set up to raise each string, and 2 pedals or levers can be set up to lower each string.
Why would you need multiple raises and lowers on a string? Well, even a simple example - on the standard E9 setup, the A pedal raises strings 5 and 10 a whole tone, and the C pedal also raises string 5 a whole tone. And the C pedal also raises string 4 a whole tone, but the F lever also raises strings 4 and 8 a half tone. So a 2-raise changer is fine for the 'normal' E9 changes. But if you want to have some other pedal or lever raise either string 4 or string 5, you'll need changer capable of 3 raises.
| Quote: |
| The Justice Jr says it comes with a 3 raise and 3 lower changer. |
I just looked - http://www.justicesteelguitars.com/S10%20Jr.html - wow, I stand corrected, it says 3+3 now. When I was looking into these, the specs stated a 2 raise and 1 lower changer. I assume they changed to their standard changer design. That's incredible for the money.
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| Dave has recommended that you get a guitar with a 3/3 changer. |
Actually, what I said was this (emphasis mine):
| Quote: |
| Most modern professional-level guitars feature at least a 3-raise/2-lower changer, and if you're paying at that level, I'd insist on at least that level of changer, if not more. |
I don't think it's necessary to have a 3-raise/3-lower, or even a 3-raise/2-lower changer to start out. But if you can get something like a Justice Jr. that actually has a 3-raise/3-lower changer for $1000-1500, that sounds like a no-brainer to me if you are OK with a relatively smaller-frame single-wide body guitar.
Last edited by Dave Mudgett on 16 Nov 2021 3:19 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Todd Snelgrove
From:
Newfoundland, Canada
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Posted 16 Nov 2021 3:17 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
You can see 10 columns of 4 holes for each neck. Each column of holes is associated with one of the 10 strings. The 4 holes in each column are separated into groups of two, an upper group and a lower group. This particular changer has the capability to raise a string two ways and lower the same string two ways. This would be called a “2 raise/2 lower†changer. Some of the holes have hex shaped nuts in them. These are attached to rods that are part of the mechanism doing the pulling that either raises or lowers the pitch of a string when a pedal or lever is activated. The hex nuts can be turned with a wrench in order to tune the strings to the pitch they are being changed to by activating pedal or lever.
Pedals and levers both have the capability to raise or lower a string.
Dave has recommended that you get a guitar with a 3/3 changer. This would mean a column of 6 holes for every string. So if you get an instrument with 3 pedals and 4 levers, a 3-raise/3-lower changer allows for more options for what those pedals and levers can do, as well as allowing for adding more in the future if you so desire.
I’m sure the answer to your question is more complicated, but that is the basic gist. |
Wow, thanks so much for this. The only PSG I've ever seen up close is my own Sho-Bud student model which doesn't have this sort of mechanism. I've been wondering what all those holes and pegs were about. So would mine be considered a 1/1? No wait, it's not even that...
_________________
'72 Sho-Bud Maverick |
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Mike Ritchie
From:
Florida, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2021 5:11 am
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| A year ago the lead time on my Justice was only six weeks and they beat that by a few days, that was very important to me as many other excellent guitars had pretty long build times. |
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Dale Rivard
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 16 Nov 2021 11:54 am
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| Hi Jon, Having had a Mullen Discovery for over 2 years now, I can vouch for it's quality. It's a professional pedal steel in every aspect: playability, tuning, sustain and sound. Also, so far, it's been very reliable, dependable(nothing has broke or gone out of adjustment) and it's lightweight(under 50 pounds). Good luck in your search. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 16 Nov 2021 1:44 pm
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| Todd Snelgrove wrote: |
Wow, thanks so much for this. The only PSG I've ever seen up close is my own Sho-Bud student model which doesn't have this sort of mechanism. I've been wondering what all those holes and pegs were about. So would mine be considered a 1/1? No wait, it's not even that... |
The Maverick has a "pull release" changer. The terminology 3/3 or 1/1 doesn't really apply to this type of changer. |
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Jerry Mohlman
From:
Michigan, USA
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Posted 16 Nov 2021 5:11 pm
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| I'm new too, only been playing a couple years at 69 years old. I bought a Justice Prolite and it has been great. i bought a Hilton pedal which has also been great. I started with a Peavey Nashville 112 amp, but decided after a year to buy a Quilter TT12 amp. The Peavey was ok especially with my lack of skill but the Quilter is outstanding. There is a definate difference in tone quality. At my age, I still think of saving a few bucks here and there as that is how I have behaved my whole life, but now if it's something I really want, I go for it. Spend the money on something nice for yourself while you still can. |
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