Rack and Barrel Question

Tyler Pexton · From: Utah, USA

Good morning everyone. I apologize if this is a very basic question, but I am trying to understand my Sho-Bud rack and barrel system. I notice that the rack does not touch the barrel when the pedals are not depressed. When I begin to depress a pedal, the rack will then hit the barrel, which makes a clank sound. I'm wondering if they should be touching by default, so that there is less pedal noise, or if this is the correct setup.

I love the tone of this Sho-Bud, but I want to make sure I really understand how the rack and barrel should be setup, this has a lot more noise when I depress/release the pedals than my old GFI, so I'm wondering if that is just par for the course with the old buds, or if there is something I should do about that.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

No, they should not touch until a pedal is pushed. The small gap between the rack and barrel is required to make the system work properly. If they are touching with the pedals at rest, you run a very good chance of what is called "over tuning" where after you tune the open string, then tune the pedal. The open string won't return in tune.

And yes, it is a noisy guitar and not much can be done about it. I loved the rack and barrel 'Bud that I had, noise and all.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Tyler Pexton · From: Utah, USA

Richard,

Thanks for your explanation, that makes sense. It sounds like the rack and barrel system naturally will have some clinking and clanking when pushing the pedals. It's probably just more noticeable to me since I'm playing in a small room.

Allen Merrell · From: Georgia, USA

Tyler, Richard is correct in what he told you about a little gap between the barrel and rack. You can sometimes quiet them down some by checking the ball connection on your pedal rods. As they get worn they will induce some noise at that point all of the connections can add to the noise factor. Look at the racks see if the jump from side to side as you press the pedals. You can tighten these up some by bending the arms in some that move the racks. Lubrication don't hurt just don't get carried away. A little lighter touch on the pedals helps too. The harder you stomp the louder they are. Make sure the changer is clean and not gummed up. I will never give up my old 72 BUD. If it is a real problem that you feel that you can't deal with LOL, put on some head phones or crank up the amp and one thing for sure if you decide this BUD is not for you put it up for sale here and see how quick it will find a new home.

Smile

_________________
72 ShoBud 6153 D10, Encore, Nashville 112, Boss Katana, Spark 40, Quilter TT12, GT001, ProFex II,Jackson Pitch changer (Love this bender)

Tyler Pexton · From: Utah, USA

Allen,

Thanks for the additional info. I'm the same as you, there is no way I'll ever give up this BUD!

Dana Blodgett · From: California, USA

Tyler, what Richard and Allen said I believe to be true. Iâ€™m no expert but in my opinion if you â€œ over tightenâ€ your barrels you do run the risk of â€œchasing your tailâ€ until you break a barrel spring like I did. They need a little slack to make them Work properly.
Where are you in Utah?
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

Start with your barrels screwed halfway thru their threads. That way they have room to tune in either direction.
And don't lube the threads...they need to have some friction, or else they'll be detuning themselves as you play.

Tyler Pexton · From: Utah, USA

Skip - Thanks for the tip~

Dana - Great info, thanks. I am in Lehi, UT.

Also, a related question, where did everyone learn about the mechanics of the rack and barrel system? Is this all just trial and error or is there a users manual floating around somewhere? My attempts to google search haven't brought up much info. The most info I have found on the topic have been in this forum, but most threads already have context and are more specific questions.

Do most of you feel comfortable taking your steel apart and putting it back together based on your understanding of how it works? That's what it sounds like to me based off of what I have read on here, and I'm wondering how I can get to that same level of knowledge.

Richard Sinkler · From: aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana

Owners manuals are few and far between. The only guitars I received any sort of manual with, was Carter and Mullen, maybe Williams (can't remember). None with either of the 2 ZB's I owned, none with the Kline, none with either of my Sho~Buds I had..
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting.

Dana Blodgett · From: California, USA

Tyler, I was asking â€˜ cause my son lives in Hurricane.
The rack & barrel stuff Iâ€™ve learned here on the forum,Jim Palenscar,Kirk Eipper ,Mullen online owners manual All Pull, Willams Steels online owners manual, I learned from Skip Edwards post ,
I donâ€™t do much mechanical stuff but try to do reasonable maintenance.Probably learning at set ups & copedants in Winnie Winstons book.flipping the guitar over occasionally & check inâ€™ stuff. Out. Iâ€™m kinda over the clicking noise thing, my fender amp goes to 10.
My old Sho~Bud is set up pretty nice & smooth, My 2nd string 1/2 step is iffy at times,
â€˜73 converted 6140 to 6139. Beat up pretty good Birdseye , I love this thing ,as flawed as it is. I wouldnâ€™t mind having another or the LDG, PRO 11 D10.
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme

Skip Edwards · From: LA,CA

A couple R&B tipsâ€¦

Donâ€™t be too concerned if 2 strings on a pedal or lever arenâ€™t starting their pulls together at the same time. Strings of different gauges will travel different distances to reach their desired pitch.
For exâ€¦ Lowering both Eâ€™s to Eb. Your 4th string will need to travel further than your 8th, so the barrel on the 8th string will come in contact with the rack a bit later than the 4th string barrel. Thatâ€™s one of the drawbacks inherent in the R&B system - an inability to accurately time your pulls to start together. You can hear it when youâ€™re playing by yourself (and listening for it), but in the heat of battle youâ€™ll pretty much never notice it.
So donâ€™t chase your tail by trying to time your pullsâ€¦

One of the good thingsâ€¦ the ability to have microtuners. The beauty of rod sharing on the Bud one-up/one down changer.
For exâ€¦ Talking in E hereâ€¦your 6th string G# should be tuned a shade flat to be in tune as the third of an open E chord. But when you go to an A pedal/F lever combo, that 6th string is now the fifth of the triad, and will sound flatâ€¦and not in a good way.
Soâ€¦ on the rod that raises the sixth string, install a barrel on the rack that your F lever uses, and tune it so that when you raise your Eâ€™s to F itâ€™ll tweak up that 6th string a hair to be in tune as the 5th of the triad.
The barrel with barely travel at allâ€¦just a smidge, and itâ€™ll be at the very end of your F leverâ€™s travel, so youâ€™ll never even feel it. But itâ€™ll true up that string perfectly.

I did that on my â€™72 6139, and it worked like a charm.
JHMO...

Dana Blodgett · From: California, USA

Good stuff stuff Skip, thank you
_________________
Dana Blodgett
From Los Osos,Ca.
'74 ShoBud 6140 3+4, Martins HD28,D-12-28, D-15,'65 Gibson LG-1, '77 Gibson Les Paul special dbl cut p-90's, Les Paul Special p-100's,Les paul Special Hybrid(maple top) hbkr's,'68 Fender Strat reissue, Fender Squire Jazz bass,Epi mandolin,Epi Wilshire '66 reissue, Kamaka Concert uke, 70's Kamaka Soprano Uke, Fender Super amp, Ampeg ba112 bass amp,60's harmony banjo,'00 Gibson SG Supreme

Bill Terry · From: Bastrop, TX

I've always been curious about the rack and barrel Sho-Buds, but I've never owned one. I did own a couple of very nice barrel on puller Sho-Buds (round front LDG and a Pro II) and while I thought they sounded great, I never could seem to get the barrels to not 'creep' a bit. Some nights it seemed like they worked and stayed in tune fine, other nights the wrench was in the changer most of the night. I tried all the 'tricks' I read online and here on the forum to keep the barrels from de-tuning, but never really got the tuning as solid as I'd like. Is the rack and barrel pretty much the same in that regard? I have to admit I miss having a Sho-Bud around from time to time. Smile

_________________
Lost Pines Studio
"I'm nuts about bolts"

Rick Abbott · From: Indiana, USA

The best idea I've heard for keeping the barrels from creeping out of tune is to add a couple wraps of plumber's tape to the threads. My 5th string does move eventually, but I only tune it at the beginning and once more in a 3 hour gig. Not too bad.
_________________
RICK ABBOTT
Sho~Bud D-10 Professional #7962
Remington T-8, Wakarusa 5e3 clone
1953 Stromberg-Carlson AU-35

Allen Merrell · From: Georgia, USA

Good info Skip. Most of what I have learned about the R&B system has been by looking close at how it works and trial and error. I am making me some barrels out of stainless steel and cutting the threads on a lathe which is very time consuming but I can control the thread fit. I have wound the springs out of .030 wire in place of .0275 which is on mine. One thing I found observing what was going on in it. Example: when I lowered my E's and released the lever they did not come exactly back to tune so I would pop the F lever and they would come back. This I did not like but I discovered that I could back off just a little at a time on the return spring and get it to come back dead on every time. From This I could see this thing is a balancing act. Now since I changed the strings I had to adjust the stop on the C pedal but now I notice more travel in the C pedal than I like so I ham going to have to make some linkage changes. I don't mind the work on it because I LOVE my BUD.
_________________
72 ShoBud 6153 D10, Encore, Nashville 112, Boss Katana, Spark 40, Quilter TT12, GT001, ProFex II,Jackson Pitch changer (Love this bender)

Tyler Pexton · From: Utah, USA

Skip, Bill, Rick, Allen -

Thanks for the info! Sounds like the forum is the best place anywhere to get good info about rack and barrel. Also sounds like I just need to get comfortable tinkering with it to really understand what's going on. I don't mind at all though, it sure is a lot of fun!

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