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Author Topic:  tuning C6th "straight up" (440)
b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 8:49 am    
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The physical nature of the instrument itself makes it virtually impossible to tune pure JI or ET. There is "cabinet drop" and "hysteresis". While some pedal steels have overcome these problems mechanically, most have not. Those problems are not as severe on C6th as E9th, but they do exist.

Only pure ET provides a (barely) acceptable solution to the problem of using any string as the root for any kind of chord. If you are always playing C6th against an electronic keyboard, you might even grow to like it.

I always recommend a tempering scheme somewhere between the extremes of JI and ET. If your 4ths and 5ths are consistently within a few cents of ET, and your 3rds and 6ths are somewhere in that 15-cent middle zone, your most common chord positions will come out alright.

But keep in mind that in everything but ET there is always a "wolfe tone" that will rear its head in certain positions. Every non-ET solution breaks down somewhere. On C6th it's usually the A to Ab/G# lever. You have to decide if it should be tuned as the 3rd of E (G#) or the 4th of the pedaled Eb (Ab). Ab and G# are very different notes unless you tune to textbook ET. I suspect that Buddy started tuning ET when he added the A half-step lower to his C6th. There are so many good uses for that lever on both sides of the fence.

Helpful hint: if you use that A lower mostly for augmented chords and don't tune ET, tune the Ab to your pedaled Eb (sharp of ET). It seems counter-intuitive, but it will work better. There actually is a JI augmented chord!
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 8:54 am    
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Jim Bates wrote:
A little of my history in learning to tune my beginner steel (Gibson BR-9 with numbers on frets and matching amp I bought from local music store in Clinton, OK) in 1953. Store gave me a pitch pipe for A tuning, which I knew nothing about notes then, but sounded good when I tuned guitar to it.

I quickly learned from a local musician that the WWV time standard ( on short wave band) would sound a accurate A=440 as the time standard at certain times/ dates when the on the hour tone was struck. My older brother had a SW radio and we listened for that tone to check the pitch pitch pipe (it was very close, if you blew softly. Next, went learning a 'C' tuning, and found the NBC chimes/tones were G E C. So, I tuned by the radio!

The NBC tones on TV are still sounded, but mainly an octave higher,

Until a several years ago, WWV still sounded the A-440, because the Musician's Union asked to keep the A 440 tone and they did.

On my very early gigs, we all tuned to the band leader!! OR the broken down piano on the stage. That WAS the standard you used, if you wanted to get paid!

Just random memories (for a moment of ZEN!)

Thanx,
Jim

PS- Never use the PHYSICS scale to tune!


If I remember well, the rotary phone tone when you took the hand set off the cradle was A440 too. I used that at times. No nobody has a phone with a line tone anymore.

You can tune JI or ET to any... 440, 439, 441, 442 and that matter 501.673927469 Hz (which would evidently not be "A" anymore even by a long shot.)

When Jeff Newman suggested to tune open "E" on E9th to A=442.5 (if I remember right)... his tuning method still was mostly JI. He just wanted the E's to always be true E's even with the pedals down and the E's body-dropped flattened.

I think I should NOT have brought up the terms "straight up" or 440 to discuss my experiments with tuning ET instead of JI or MT (MeanTone Temperament).


... J-D.
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Ricky Davis


From:
Bertram, Texas USA
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 8:54 am    
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To me; it is NOT a matter of how you tune your strings open and with pedals and knee levers....it is a MATTER of how do you TUNE YOUR EARS???? Does NOT matter how you tune; it ONLY matters can you hear in-tune and out-of-tune...
The better you learn to hear in-tune; the more you will changer HOW you tune...and that is a progression that just does not stop.
So quit asking and following "HOW TO TUNE YOUR STEEL" and start asking "How can I learn to tune my ear/intonation".
You are ONLY as good as your EAR ..> PERIOD.
Ricky
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 9:57 am    
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Ricky Davis wrote:
To me; it is NOT a matter of how you tune your strings open and with pedals and knee levers....it is a MATTER of how do you TUNE YOUR EARS???? Does NOT matter how you tune; it ONLY matters can you hear in-tune and out-of-tune...
The better you learn to hear in-tune; the more you will changer HOW you tune...and that is a progression that just does not stop.
So quit asking and following "HOW TO TUNE YOUR STEEL" and start asking "How can I learn to tune my ear/intonation".
You are ONLY as good as your EAR ..> PERIOD.
Ricky


Ricky with all the respect I have for you and your musical achievements and contributions here as well as our mutual love for ShoBuds, I disagree with your statement and it's tone.


If you tune by ear, I would know only a hand full of people who's tuning would not wind up being JI or very near it. It's natural and as explained dictated by the laws of physics of overtones. If one does NOT hear the clash of an ET tuned Major third against the 12 cents flatter Major Third harmonics of the root of such a harmony, then I doubt you would take that person as an example for someone who can tune any instrument. One can teach himself to LIVE with and ACCEPT harshness, wobble or rub on an ET or near ET tuned instrument like a standard guitar, piano etc.
We can tune JI most any basic "open" chord tuning on our axes, but once pedal changes are added beyond just altering THAT chord, but changing the placement of degrees, this practice can become a challenge and finally a frustrating train wreck.
Since I don't doubt YOUR ears, Ricky I am sure you understand that.

When I started out in my early years, I had NO guidance, no understanding, nor YouTube or even a Jeff or Maurice. Most of all, I had NO knowledge. But apparently, not unlike you and many others, I had a pair of ears. And while I tuned my non pedal steel to A6th with a 1980's small tuner, I found that it sounded out off tune and did what nature (physics) directs us to do and then wonder what was wrong with my ears or the tuner as some strings showed up sharp and others much flatter.
It's our "heated" discussions over 2 decades ago here on the Forum which had me go "oh?" and later "aha" as terms like JI and ET were handed around.

So, IF I tune by ear, my tuning will be JI. But if I do that on a complex altered tuning (PSG), some changes will NOT BE (tuner) in tune nor SOUND (ear) in tune.
A typical example would be the diminished combination with pedals 5&6 on C6th.
Another frustrating example is the C-to-C# raise paired with the 5th pedal. Being a change stacked on another, it is un-tunable to JI.
You can find a "golden" compromise but even in ET they will not sound in tune... but in ET they will work and the pedals will also work individually and with other changes were the strings take on new degrees in the newly formed chords.

While my heart and ear asks for JI... my necessity to make combinations work forced me into considering MTT or ET. Now finding myself happier with ET (on C6th!), something I would not have thought possible, reminded me of the infamous statement that BE had migrated to ET to in his later years and I was hoping to find out more about his reasons and how he applied it.

This was not up to reheat debates of the late 90's.
I simply wondered if anybody had a good recollection or could give witness testimony to what his thinking and approach was when he declared to have swayed off JI in a late period of his career and musical journey. I restate here again that this tread has lead me to realize that sadly we have lost any record of what BE's thinking was.

So sorry, sometimes we ask, and if I'd need to know about ShoBuds, I'd ask you, even if it make some Brand-X cringe.

Thanks!... J-D.
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A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
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Christopher Woitach


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 11:06 am    
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In reference to Maurice’s comment above, I’m neither well known nor great, so grain of salt here…

Reece was my teacher for the first years of my playing, and I play his last Bb6 copedent (I’m sure there would’ve been more!). He taught me to tune by ear with harmonics and open strings, basically JI. I was never able to play well with it, bad ears or something, and I truly tried.

After he passed, I decided to try tuning everything straight up, no tweaking. All of the sudden, the way I think of chords (I’m a professional jazz guitarist) worked really well, or at least a lot better. Bob mentioned above about any note being a root on any string, to which I’d add any note on any string being anything - I was wasn’t able to do that without tuning straight up. I know plenty of people seem to be able to (Reece a great example), but I never was.

I would never suggest to anyone to tune, or for that matter, play like me, but straight up works better for my purposes, which are performing the functions of jazz guitar in a small group setting with no other harmonic instruments. The only chordal player I ever play with is Doug Livingston, once a year, in Phoenix, and a few times a year I play with a band doing countryish music.

Anyway, I know I’m missing part of what makes steel guitar amazing, but straight up works for me.
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Ricky Davis


From:
Bertram, Texas USA
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 11:22 am    
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Yes J D I totally understand you and your really very great explanations of "Tuning discographies"(I guess I just made that up...ha.); and I certainly don't mean any disrespect to you and anyone's tuning procedures and capabilities. I only wanted to express my opinion on how; basically, I have been changing my tuning procedures through all the years; ONLY on how my ear has progressed how I hear and what I hear. This also has been explained to me from my Mentors through the years. In-Tune is only explained by your ear in delivery and how someone hears it in reception.
Ricky
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 1:19 pm    
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Ricky Davis wrote:
Yes J D I totally understand you and your really very great explanations of "Tuning discographies"(I guess I just made that up...ha.); and I certainly don't mean any disrespect to you and anyone's tuning procedures and capabilities. I only wanted to express my opinion on how; basically, I have been changing my tuning procedures through all the years; ONLY on how my ear has progressed how I hear and what I hear. This also has been explained to me from my Mentors through the years. In-Tune is only explained by your ear in delivery and how someone hears it in reception.
Ricky


Thanks Ricky. We all sometimes tend to write in a way it won't be read.
And likewise we tend to read and interpret differently than the writer intended it "go over".

Tuning Discographies? Yes, you made that up! Very Happy

Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 1:43 pm    
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Christopher Woitach wrote:
In reference to Maurice’s comment above, I’m neither well known nor great, so grain of salt here…

Reece was my teacher for the first years of my playing, and I play his last Bb6 copedent (I’m sure there would’ve been more!). He taught me to tune by ear with harmonics and open strings, basically JI. I was never able to play well with it, bad ears or something, and I truly tried.

After he passed, I decided to try tuning everything straight up, no tweaking. All of the sudden, the way I think of chords (I’m a professional jazz guitarist) worked really well, or at least a lot better. Bob mentioned above about any note being a root on any string, to which I’d add any note on any string being anything - I was wasn’t able to do that without tuning straight up. I know plenty of people seem to be able to (Reece a great example), but I never was.

I would never suggest to anyone to tune, or for that matter, play like me, but straight up works better for my purposes, which are performing the functions of jazz guitar in a small group setting with no other harmonic instruments. The only chordal player I ever play with is Doug Livingston, once a year, in Phoenix, and a few times a year I play with a band doing countryish music.

Anyway, I know I’m missing part of what makes steel guitar amazing, but straight up works for me.


Yes, Maurice tuned up by ear once he had a reference. I would normally too.
Evidently, to do ET, you can't because your ear points you to JI.

As I mentioned early on, I discussed the subject with Maurice at his home around that time when it was floated around that stated BE had gone ET. BE even briefly confirmed that here on the Forum but with little explanation, how, how much touch up and if one or both necks.
Maurice could NOT believe it. Neither could I. And Maurice said "I would have to SEE that on HIS guitar to believe it!"
But when I listen to BE's C6th, I wouldn't be able to tell! And others have state the same. And this is KEY to what many argued here:

I am inclined to agree that "what sounds good to you"... but at the end of the day or the show... it's about what sounded good to the AUDIENCE.

My non-musician wife who grew up around musicians, pianos, guitars, violins and accordions and NO steel guitars, but loves the jazz sounds of steel which she discovered thru me, said immediately it sounded more defined (which seems logical), that the changes were more audible with since I went ET... the last statement had me surprised, because that's another aspect of ET which I find pleasing... hearing my changes clear and "solid"... on the point. They are more "defined".
One pedal steel guitarist I look up to a great deal is Curly Chalker. However I find much of his C6th work to be quite noticeably out of tune and that some changes or change combinations sounded questionable as far as tuning. I don't know how he tuned but I would tend to believe that he might have been tuning JI and had tuning conflicts with his rather complex setup.
Maurice played very stable, especially in later years, even with his trademark complex chord structures. I however felt that in the era when he recoded with Julian Tharpe, some coming from both players was tuning wise, let's say "audacious" and needing some getting used to, to put it nicely. I don't know how they tuned in that era.


Those who remember me from the "blast from the past" (I left steel guitars and the Forum for pretty much 20 years after 2001) may remember that I was a strong defensor of JI. As I keep repeating here, my heart and ear still longs for JI, and would I ever play E9th or non-pedal again, I would tune to ear and it'd turn out to be JI.
But for a complex C6th, I am set on ET. But I don't suggest everybody else now goes about to detune their guitars and go onto a hair raising tuning expedition.

Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Ricky Davis


From:
Bertram, Texas USA
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 5:33 pm    
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Quote:
Thanks Ricky. We all sometimes tend to write in a way it won't be read.
And likewise we tend to read and interpret differently than the writer intended it "go over".

Thank you Brother.
Ricky
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Lee Baucum


From:
McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier
Post  Posted 27 Jul 2021 6:18 pm    
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Quote:
We all sometimes tend to write in a way it won't be read.
And likewise we tend to read and interpret differently than the writer intended it "go over".


That reminds me of a small sign I saw many years ago.

Quote:
I know you think you understood what you thought I said; but, I'm not quite sure that what you heard is what I meant.


Smile
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 28 Jul 2021 8:59 am    
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Ian Rae wrote:
With its diminished and augmented chords, the C6 lends itself to equal temperament much more readily than the E9. I play a universal and I like to tune in natural intervals, but I have to make compromises. There is no such thing as a JI dim or aug.

That's almost not true. JI theory is based on the ratios of whole intervals. The minor 3rd is typically tuned to to 6/5, or 315.6 cents. Stack 3 of them and you have 946.8 cents. Add a 7/6 interval (266.9 cents) and you end up at 1213.7 cents, a little more than an octave. Tempering with 2.5 cent meantone smooths out that little discrepancy and the and we get a nice sounding diminished chord with P5 and P6.

As for the augmented, the JI major 3rd is tuned to 5/4, or 386.3 cents. Stack 2 of them and you have 772.6 cents. Add a 14/11 interval (417.5 cents) and you end up a wee bit flat of the octave at 1190.1 cents. Again, tuning the 3rds with 2.5 cent meantone corrects the octave problem and makes a better sounding chord than ET.

3rds that are in that ~14 cent range between JI and ET always sound good, but there are also some JI 3rds beyond that range that the ear will resolve, because physics. Mr. Green
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b0b


From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
Post  Posted 28 Jul 2021 9:20 am    
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J D Sauser wrote:
When you tune the 7th pedal and then use it with the 6th pedal you create an altogether different chord will all degrees moved, so the JI that worked against "open" now is totally wrong.

I haven't worked out the math, but I'm not hearing a problem with that chord in meantone. I use it sometimes for the CmMaj7 or to extend the A half-diminished. Sounds alright to me.
Quote:
The C-to-C# raise struggles with various issues, being the M3rd raising from the Am7... it too is flat... then you want to drop the 5th pedal to drop the b7th to become a 6th and everything just has that mushy "flat" sound... then try to drop the A half and good nite "tuning"!

Yes, like the E9th F lever, the C6th C# is doubly flat. But also like the the E9th, it works. In meantone, I routinely use it with P5 to get the A6th position and it doesn't sound mushy or flat to me. I don't use it with Ab lever, though, because it would require tuning that lever to G#, the wolfe problem I described earlier. If you need to use that lever on both sides of the spectrum, ET is your only option.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 30 Jul 2021 7:52 am     Thanks!
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b0b wrote:
J D Sauser wrote:
When you tune the 7th pedal and then use it with the 6th pedal you create an altogether different chord will all degrees moved, so the JI that worked against "open" now is totally wrong.

I haven't worked out the math, but I'm not hearing a problem with that chord in meantone. I use it sometimes for the CmMaj7 or to extend the A half-diminished. Sounds alright to me.
Quote:
The C-to-C# raise struggles with various issues, being the M3rd raising from the Am7... it too is flat... then you want to drop the 5th pedal to drop the b7th to become a 6th and everything just has that mushy "flat" sound... then try to drop the A half and good nite "tuning"!

Yes, like the E9th F lever, the C6th C# is doubly flat. But also like the the E9th, it works. In meantone, I routinely use it with P5 to get the A6th position and it doesn't sound mushy or flat to me. I don't use it with Ab lever, though, because it would require tuning that lever to G#, the wolfe problem I described earlier. If you need to use that lever on both sides of the spectrum, ET is your only option.


6 & 7 together are bearable in MT.. unless you grab the 9th string (F) along with it.
Yes, and that was my point... MT is a "golden-medium", just like ET it REQUIRES a tuner to tune and check. But like everything else, it has it's limits too with stacked changes. And this is what forced me into ET.
It's funny, at times I am surprised how OK it sounds to me... other days, them M3rd are grinding my ears... on harmonies, you have to learn which way to slant the bar a bit... inside complex chords, it's being masked by all that's going on.

There is NO true ET possible, given the mechanical issues, bar pressure etc you described earlier. I used to tune JI with the bar somewhere in the middle of my playing range... it's by ear, so you can do it anywhere.
ET and MT have to be tuned open... as soon you put the bar on, it's altered already.


Thanks to all who participated for the cordial and constructive discourse!

I miss BE, Maurice, Tom Brumley, John Fabian, Bud Carter, John Hughey.... all them Cats, all the knowledge... J-D.
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Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Christopher Woitach


From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
Post  Posted 30 Jul 2021 8:53 am    
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Thanks for the interesting discussion - explained some stuff I thought but hadn't deeply thought about..

I wonder if anyone else noticed - a post and a discussion about pedal steel tuning that never flew off the rails, or got anybody angry.

Nice
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 30 Jul 2021 9:06 am    
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Christopher Woitach wrote:
Thanks for the interesting discussion - explained some stuff I thought but hadn't deeply thought about..

I wonder if anyone else noticed - a post and a discussion about pedal steel tuning that never flew off the rails, or got anybody angry.

Nice


Yes, we noticed. And I mentioned that THIS was one of the subject the crap flew into the fan several times 25 years or so ago.
Funny thing is, although SLOWWwwwwwleeee, we seem to be learning. At that time, many did NOT know what it was called what they tuned to, what it meant... but equally as much, we all had rock hard opinions about it and were prepared to defend those with our lives... and imagine then, how readily with YOUR life! Ha! Very Happy

Thanks!... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 6 Aug 2022 12:14 pm    
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I have resurrected this because, earlier today, I found I was having problems with tuning my steel. Strings seemed to be buzzing and I was facing the ugly reality of changing all twenty!!!

Then I realized: I'd been fooled by the ceiling-fan again! I usually have it switched off but it had been started again and I hadn't noticed - except aurally.

That solved that problem. The strings are fine.

Then I started in on my C6th and began to fine-tune the pedals and knees. I know there are spots that can't be resolved (that A to Ab lever is notorious, and pedal 6 with the As raised can be touchy), but I've pretty much tuned straight-up. A considerable amount of adjustment was needed on the low strings with pedals 5,6 and 8.

So far, it sounds really sweet to me. I'm not immune to blundering, of course, and I might sit down again later and say: 'What was I thinking???'

I'm really echoing the sentiment that, for some reason, C6th is happier straight-up than E9 is. I've been noodling for 30 minutes and haven't found a serious problem yet, even with the E strings tuned straight.
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 6 Aug 2022 12:36 pm    
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Roger Rettig wrote:
I have resurrected this because, earlier today, I found I was having problems with tuning my steel. Strings seemed to be buzzing and I was facing the ugly reality of changing all twenty!!!

Then I realized: I'd been fooled by the ceiling-fan again! I usually have it switched off but it had been started again and I hadn't noticed - except aurally.

That solved that problem. The strings are fine.

Then I started in on my C6th and began to fine-tune the pedals and knees. I know there are spots that can't be resolved (that A to Ab lever is notorious, and pedal 6 with the As raised can be touchy), but I've pretty much tuned straight-up. A considerable amount of adjustment was needed on the low strings with pedals 5,6 and 8.

So far, it sounds really sweet to me. I'm not immune to blundering, of course, and I might sit down again later and say: 'What was I thinking???'

I'm really echoing the sentiment that, for some reason, C6th is happier straight-up than E9 is. I've been noodling for 30 minutes and haven't found a serious problem yet, even with the E strings tuned straight.


Ha!... the first time I got taken by the ceiling fan, it took me days to figure out what had gone wrong with my steel, my amp or "MAYBE" even myself (the later being the most likely source of issues, but still the last checked).


I tune straight up (ET).
Then I check my perfect 4ths and 5ths at the nut (open) and again around the 9th fret, checking groups of 4ths/5ths in likely string groups and retuned accordingly to make good for pressure-de-tuning.

I've "learned" to not so much tune open as around the middle of my playing's range when I got so much trouble with these antique French Steel String "Selmer-Maccaferri"-style acoustic Jazz guitars. It proved to the only way to be in average in-tune with the rest of the Wester hemisphere.

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 6 Aug 2022 12:56 pm    
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I went back to my steel, JD, and it still sounds good. Somehow, the muddiness of those lower strings is much improved, along with general intonation.

We'll see how it strikes me tomorrow.

And no - a Florida inhabitant shouldn't fall for the ceiling-fan enigma, not after twenty two years living here!

(I'd failed to switch off the italics!)


Last edited by Roger Rettig on 6 Aug 2022 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 6 Aug 2022 1:24 pm    
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Roger Rettig wrote:
I went back to my steel, JD, and it good. sounds good. Somehow, the muddiness of those lower strings is much improved, along with general intonation.

We'll see how it strikes me tomorrow.

And no - a Florida inhabitant shouldn't fall for the ceiling-fan enigma, not after twenty two years living here!


That was way back when, in Switzerland... and ceiling fans there were an oddity... so evidently, I had to have one. Little did I know it would chop-chop the sound. Smile


... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
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Fred Treece


From:
California, USA
Post  Posted 7 Aug 2022 8:20 am    
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Ceiling fans should come with warning labels for guitar players. I discovered the phenomena by accident, because the room where I was practicing my Bach for Beginners had cooled off considerably, and I noticed how much better Bach's music sounded on my guitar after I switched that damn fan off.
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Dale Rottacker


From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
Post  Posted 7 Aug 2022 9:05 am    
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I should NOT enter where Angels dare not tread, but...

I have LOADS of respect for everyone here, who all seem to come at this in a much more thoughtful, logical way then I ever have.

When I started (early 70's) on a very simple 3x1 Maverick, I knew nothing from nothing, except that I thought just tune the thing to the piano and you'll be okay, but my ear fought that method with a vengeance. I couldn't stand how "off" different pedal/knee combinations clashed and instinctively would split hairs (sweeten to taste) to get as many combinations, both open and pedaled to sound right.

A couple of years ago I started tuning E9th Harmonically but with exceptions. (have not tried that yet on C6th) My setup/copedent today is a long ways from that 3x1 Maverick with 6x6 on E9th and 5x5 on C6th. On E9th I tune all the standard open/pedals/levers harmonically, but with certain combinations tend to tune by ear. I lower the 9ths string in 3 different places combined with lowering the 6th a half and also a whole and then the 9th by itself where I lower the 2nd. I also raise the 9th a half where I'm also raising the 7th a half and a whole. And feel like to get things sounding correct, (seems to ALWAYS come back to the ears) I have to tune each of those slightly different. Remember, I'm coming at this from knowing ZIP. I believe JD said earlier in here that E9th is mostly a 2-3 string tuning, but NOT delving into C6th much till the last year, was trying to get C6th stuff on E9th and ALWAYS play a lot of 3-4+ note chords, and introducing things my feeble ear has to navigate.

Back to the drawing board

When this thread started I wasn't yet trying to navigate C6th so paid little attention to it at the time. Thank you Roger, for the resurrection, as I've found each explanation illuminating and much food for thought. Currently I've been tuning C6th to my StroboRack C6th setting and though I've been mostly satisfied I HEAR some of the things you've all mentioned. I'm horrible with terminology so JI and ET or the thought of them really come into play with me, though they both have merit. Mathematically I suppose ET makes sense, but my ear tends to argue with it. I HATE that, because in my head, "In Tune" IS "IN TUNE". I started this whole journey 50 years ago with an incorrect premise that I shouldn't have to slant my bar even a little because that one note sounds flat. After all I AM In Tune. I LOVE the idea of being able to go to a number or needle position and then to be able to count on that being SPOT ON, and yet my ear fights that.

SO, what to do? I have great regard for JD and Christopher and Roger, so I'm going to try ET on C6th and hope I hear what Ya'll hear.

BTW, like JD I appreciate the No Drama found in this thread, it makes this a much more pleasant experience. This was the reason I started Pedal Steel Only, NO DRAMA (shameless plug) on FB, cause isn't there ENOUGH Drama everywhere else?
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 7 Aug 2022 9:15 am    
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Dale:

So far, so good with my 'new' approach to tuning the C neck. I sat down at it again today and it still sounded sweet to my ear.

It may have opened a can of worms, though, because I found that I needed to increase the tension on the lower-helper spring on my 9th string (C6). Maybe that manifested itself after I'd retuned all those pedals (esp. the bottom four strings), but maybe not. Who knows?

I'm about to go back and check things again.

On the whole, I'm much happier with the way MY C neck sounds now. As I think I said, there's less muddiness, somehow.
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Dale Rottacker


From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
Post  Posted 7 Aug 2022 10:41 am    
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Roger Rettig wrote:
Dale:

So far, so good with my 'new' approach to tuning the C neck. I sat down at it again today and it still sounded sweet to my ear.

It may have opened a can of worms, though, because I found that I needed to increase the tension on the lower-helper spring on my 9th string (C6). Maybe that manifested itself after I'd retuned all those pedals (esp. the bottom four strings), but maybe not. Who knows?

I'm about to go back and check things again.

On the whole, I'm much happier with the way MY C neck sounds now. As I think I said, there's less muddiness, somehow.

Well... my initial thoughts are this, "OH YEAH" ... I'd been fooling around on Moonglow and that first chord open strings 876 always sounded a little wonky using the StroboRack C6th setting, but ET and its GONE... in the first line of that I also use the 5th pedal and 3rd string lowered and use most of the strings from 9-3 and NOTHING Weird. The 15 minutes or so I've spent playing I haven't heard anything out of kilter.

Roger, I don't know if I'd use the word muddy on the bottom before tuning ET, BUT, it seems the separation has improved.
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
http://rittenberrysteelguitars.com
https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com
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Roger Rettig


From:
Naples, FL
Post  Posted 7 Aug 2022 10:49 am    
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Well, maybe that's what I meant. Previously, the bottom three/four strings could sound like an indeterminate rumble (unless one is soloing, of course).

I like 'muddy'!!! And I'm sticking with it. :)

I must say that a lot of standard stuff on pedals 5,6,7 (and even 8) is much more in tune. I'll be honest here and say that, although I trust my ears in a tight corner, that low A note on the 10th (P8) is sometimes very hard to fine-tune. Even my TU-12 doesn't care much for it!
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J D Sauser


From:
Wellington, Florida
Post  Posted 7 Aug 2022 12:25 pm    
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Fred Treece wrote:
Ceiling fans should come with warning labels for guitar players. I discovered the phenomena by accident, because the room where I was practicing my Bach for Beginners had cooled off considerably, and I noticed how much better Bach's music sounded on my guitar after I switched that damn fan off.


explains in so many words why Bach didn't use electric ceiling fans.

Very Happy

... J-D.
_________________
__________________________________________________________

Was it JFK who said: Ask Not What TAB Can Do For You - Rather Ask Yourself "What Would B.B. King Do?"

A Little Mental Health Warning:

Tablature KILLS SKILLS.
The uses of Tablature is addictive and has been linked to reduced musical fertility.
Those who produce Tablature did never use it.

I say it humorously, but I mean it.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website


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