Katana 100w 2x12 maxed out at outdoor gig

Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

The last 2 outdoor gigs I've played this summer, relied on the amp - it didn't go through the PA.

I found that I had to have it maxed out to get it loud enough, and still it wasn't as clean as I like. I had the Master on max, the Volume on max and the gain maybe 1/3 up- I know that cranking this will cause overdrive in the front end.

I don't notice this on bar gigs where the amp is miced.

The bands I played with outdoors were not overly loud.

My Peavey N112 never had a problem keeping up. I need to repair it. And my Nashville 400. And my Vegas 400. And my Session 500. I have a pile of dead peaveys.

I just wonder if you Katana users experienced lack of clean headroom when playing outdoors?
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Fred Treece · From: California, USA

Have to ask the obvious question, but did you have the Katana on the 100w setting? If yes, then look at what else is different about the stage sound, indoor vs outdoors. Is the amp in the monitor mix when you are micâ€™d indoors? Or can you hear it in the mains?

One thing that can happen with a small amp outdoors (or large indoor venues) is the sound becomes isolated, weak, and directional. There are no walls and ceiling to create a natural reverberation. And of course, it is not being dispersed over the soundscape in a set of full range PA speakers.

You probably have the amp set up behind you, directed toward the audience. Try aiming the speaker at your head. Itâ€™s not a great way to perceive your tone, but at least youâ€™ll be able to hear it.

It is also possible that the outdoor stages were underpowered. Did anyone else in the band have volume troubles?

Jim Fogarty · From: Phila, Pa, USA

Lynn,

I've found, with ALL of these digital amps, the power ratings are way overstated. I have a "200 watt" Quilter combo, and while it sounds great and can get nice and loud.......it's essentially no louder than my early 70's Deluxe Reverb at 22 tube watts.

Basically, I'm saying that 100 digital watts, outside? No surprise at all that you ran out of volume and headroom. I'd get the best of those PV's fixed for those situations.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

ok back to basics, 200 watts is not 2x as loud as 100 watts, 100 watts is not 2x as loud as 50 watts, 50 watts is not 2x as loud as 25 watts etc... and on and on.

I suppose we have to re-define LOUD. Or maybe we are re-defining CLEAN headroom.

The entire planet thinks a Twin Reverb ( 85 watts) is overkill and just WAY TOO LOUD, BUT in practicality, its not even double the power a 50 watt amp. What an amp like the Twin does is allow more clean headroom, driving the output stage which is designed to handle a bit MORE juice with an output transformer that has more beef.

The reason amps like the Twin Reverb became so popular is because back in the NO DISTORTION days, the Twin could perform at stage levels with CLEAN tones, unlike a Deluxe Reverb or Princeton etc.. which could not attain stage volume with a required CLEAN tone. The stage volumes were probably near equal.

For some very odd reason(marketing) we still assume when we are buying a 100 watt amp it is tremendously loud, in fact OVERKILL.

here is the WIKI definition , again
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Wattage, power, and SPL ( Sound Pressure levels)

So how many watts does it take to get twice as loud? Let's imagine two ampsâ€”one amp rated at 10 watts, and a second amplifier rated at 20 watts. The 20-watt amp is double the power of the 10-watt amp, but doubling the power only translates to an increase of 3 dB SPL.

Remember, in order to sound "twice as loud," you need an increase of 10dB, so while a 20W amplifier will sound noticeably louder than a 10W amp, it will not sound twice as loud. The same thing holds true at higher wattagesâ€”a 100W amp is not going to sound twice as loud as a 50W amp; assuming identical speakers, it will only be 3 dB louder, which is noticeable, but definitely not a doubling of perceived loudness.
-------------------------------------------------------

Next we have to talk about speaker efficiency. I have a Katana 50, nice little amp for the money, it has one purpose, duo low volume gigs. Electric and acoustic guitar. It does that very well. BUT in actuality, the entire amp costs less than a premium efficient speaker ! LOL.

Ok here's my opinion, not that it matters.

Marshall Amps, the 50 watter's vs the 100 watter's. The 50 watter's are preferred for those cats lugging a Les Paul because they break up at stage levels , they do not have less stage volume, they just break up earlier. This is the Twin Reverb theorem Very Happy

You want clean ? get 100 watts, you want some grit ? grab a 40 or 50. but you will not get clean at the same level.

So the basic question always gets back to "What are we expecting " ? The kid at Guitar Center said " this is 100 watts, twice the power of 50 watts" He wasn't wrong but he was also a mile from being right . LOL Laughing

HVAC systems, we can install one with a higher BTU rating but 70 degrees is still 70 degrees !

We need to own amps that fit the gigs that we will be performing at. All gigs / stages are not equal. We do need to understand what our amps are capable of. What is our requirement ? I don't know about you guys but I have 3 or 4 different amps I use for different venues. I've been there with the lo cost Fender so called 90 watt SS amp in a big room on a high stage. Come on man, this is 90 watts ! First 3 rows get out of the way !

That amp is long gone. Very Happy

I could drag out the 60 watt HR Deville and blow that 90 watt SS amp over from the air the Deville pushes ! LOL Problem is the Deville weighs 60 pounds.

The Twin reverb is perhaps the ONLY production combo amp that can cover most if not all gigs, problem is it is indeed overkill and too heavy to lug around on gigs where a 15 or 20 watt rated amp will fit the bill .
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Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

The Katana basically got it done, but it was all it could do. It didn't have the nice clarity I'm used to at lower volumes. The "acoustic" setting was a bit cleaner that "clean", but still not as clean as I like.

At both gigs, I asked audience members and band mates if my sound was fuzzy or ratty and they said no.

Yesterday's outdoor show was running off a generator- so that likely didn't help.

In situations like this, I intentionally have my amp off axis from me so I don't hear it very well. Otherwise, I play too quietly. Maybe this contributes to it sounding distorted to me (and only me). If I had aimed it at my head, I would never play it loud enough.

I like the amp otherwise and it works great for indoors and/or miced.

Another amp solution is to use one of my bass heads (GK MB250, MB500) through any number of cabinets. But then I need a reverb pedal.
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Pat Moore · From: Virginia USA

Hey Lynn,
I have a Peavey Black Corner Nashville 400 with tilt-back legs I'm gonna sell that'll cover all your gigs, hands down, with great tone! And, tone is what's as important isn't it!
I'm in Va., & can meet ya halfway if you might be interested.
Thx, Pat

Larry Dering · From: Missouri, USA

I'm in the same opinion as Tony Prior. My Katana 100 us great for home or typical gigs. I use the line out to the PA if we need it. For outdoors it's my Peavey Session 400 or Nashville 1000. Bigger speaker and plenty of volume. Fix those Peaveys.

Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

Georg Sørtun · From: Mandal, Agder, Norway

Edward Dixon · From: Crestview Florida

Pat Moore · From: Virginia USA

PM sent!

Dave Hopping · From: Aurora, Colorado

+1000 on using sound reinforcement outdoors.

Doubtless there are reasons for not mic/lineout/DI-ing but they'd better be good ones!

Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

I find that my Telonics 2x200W stereo setup is adequate out of doors. The guitarist uses 50W but he's not trying to stay clean, so subjectively we sound equal. The bass uses a 250W combo which is clean but not too clean.

We can all play within our limits because we are blessed with a non-violent drummer.
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

I suppose we can all recommend using a PA system for sound reinforcement to carry the load of AMPS etc...

Which system ? Who's system ? is is stout enough to carry the load ? All PA's are not equal and if a PRO sound crew is not available they are a real PAIN in the AXX to haul, setup and tear down. I know this first hand !

Today, even small lite-weight PA's are the talk of the town. And then they have the same spec issues. RE: Rated at a so called 600 watts or more per channel , what are they in reality ? Can the speakers even handle mic'ing vocals and instruments with a "pleasant" sound ?

Years back I carried all my gear, Steel, Tele, Amps, AND 2x power amps ,( 3000 wts for mains AND 2000 wts for monitors ) a 14 channel board, wires , cables blah blah blah . My band mate carried Mains and Monitors. MADNESS.

I played an outdoor show this past Saturday with a hired gun sound guy. Everything was mic'd . I only brought my small cab 50 watt 1x12 tube amp.

It was a mess . The sound level on stage was massively high , I still have a headache. So remember, when we talk about sound reinforcement, the #1 question or concern is, WHO IS RUNNING SOUND ? Because we may be better off without them or the sound system !

So, Mic your amp, what does that actually mean or entail ? Because its way more than placing a '57 in front of the speaker. Thats the EASY part. Laughing

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Ian Rae · From: Redditch, England

That's why we only put vocals through PA. Obviously there's no choice, but there is a limit to how much damage can be done by helpful strangers.

Most PA systems are way too loud anyway, even if it's a clean loud. The operators want to impress, but they don't need to intimidate. They should be encouraging the audience to listen, not leave. They don't seem to have the concept of an appropriate level for the venue, the music, the listeners etc. It is possible to drive a fast car at comfortable speeds.
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Lynn Kasdorf · From: Waterford Virginia, USA

This is a band of some old freinds, all great musicians in multiple bands. No sound man- we run PA from the stage. The PA we used was a creaky old head (a peavey I think) with some bad channels, so there wasn't enough to mic all amps, although we could have likely done mine. It might have beein weird to mic just the steel amp and not the guitar, which was playing through a Super Reverb, so he had plenty of mojo.

I didn't realize it was a problem until we actually started playing.

If I had been running a more serious amp, it wouldn't have been a problem. But, I always prefer to be in the PA so I don't have to play so loud. From now on I'm going to insist I go through the house if I use this amp again on an outdoor show.
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John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Lynn, I'd suspect that generator power first and foremost. Last outdoor gig I did like that on a generator, my Stereo Steel rig felt very underpowered and "brown." After that I added a very heavy power conditioner to my rack and never had that problem again.
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Jim Fogarty · From: Phila, Pa, USA

With tube and solid-state amps, "bad" power can cause them to underperform or sound bad.

With a digital amp, if the power is bad, it simply won't work.

I doubt that's the issue.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

The issue when playing outdoors is that there are no walls and ceilings for sound reinforcement. Instead of the sound being reflected and bouncing all over the place, it just disperses infinitely, and this is why open-backed amps perform so poorly in this environment. (That's also the reason all PA speakers you see are enclosed.)
An open-back speaker enclosure in the form of a combo amp has an efficiency of around 2% to 3% (depending on the efficiency speakers). That means that for every 100 electrical watts you put into the speaker, you're probably getting about 2 to 3 actual audio watts out. Speakers in a closed cabinet, on the other hand, can have an efficiency that runs from about 5% to almost 20% which would yield 5 to 20 watts of audio out for each 100 electrical watts in.

The solution for the "outdoor dilemma" is either tons of power, or more efficient speaker enclosures. I found, after doing hundreds of outdoor gigs unmiked, that 150 watts was barely acceptable when open back combo amps are used. That is the primary reason I went from a Twin to a Super Twin, and then to a solid state stereo amp that was 140 watts/channel. Cool

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

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