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Topic: E13? |
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 9:25 am |
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Interested to hear what experiences people have had with this tuning, or variations of it.
I've been listening to some Zane Beck recordings and notice that he maintains that bright E9 quality of sound, but is able to bring in a lot of other voicings and colours not typical of that tuning.
I think his 12 string extended down to a low B, and he left out the chromatic strings on top. (There's a lot of unique stuff going on there like C# & D on one pedal with adjacent strings up top. The absence of an E root around string 8 is interesting too. A bit like a very old school E9 tuning in that sense.)
In my view, the significant component here is the C# string between B&E in the upper register, on an E tuning.
The appeal in this approach for me would be that it is ONE tuning, and does not toggle between two worlds like other universal approaches. (E9/B6, Bb6/Eb9 etc)
What Johnny Cox is doing with D13 is really cool too, and is related to this notion of a single tuning. In this case the D13 sits half way between E9 and C6.
(This is probably the ultimate, because the timbre of strings would work well with rich and complex chord voicings, and those shimmering country sounds could still be had.)
In terms of E13, I've been thinking about different configurations, and I think keeping the chromatic strings up top would be a good way to go, with C# added between B&E.
If D was on uni style lever, the bottom strings could be G# and E, on a 12 string set up.
(This approach would be more like E6/9).
This is largely hypothetical for me. I realize this is somewhat of a 'niche within a niche' but very interested to learn more and hear other's points of view here, what changes you felt were useful in terms of that added 6th tone and so on.
Thanks,
Andy |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 3:33 pm
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If I could travel back in time and start all over again knowing what I know now, I would go D13.
I've played B6/E9 for a few years now and I've invested in two fine instruments, so no turning back. But D13 makes a lot of sense.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Andrew Goulet
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 3:53 pm
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I play a simplified version of Johnny Cox's D13 with 3 pedals and 4 knees. I learned on and have pretty much always played a hybrid tuning so it's my default. But I think you're spot on about the timbre of D. It works for swinging 6th stuff but still can float around in high country territory.
On a previous Fender I had a fifth pedal that I would use to raise the 6th to a b7th. I liked that, although it was simple. Useful for 7th chords (obviously) but I could also do some nice things by combining it with the AB pedals. I'm sure others here have more diverse ideas.
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Marlen S12 and a ZT Club |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 7:12 pm
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I use C13 on the back neck of my D10, and one important point on this topic is the temperment you want to use with the non E9 country voicings.
I use meantone on the C13 so all the extended voicings work reasonably well.
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 8:30 pm
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| Quote: |
I use meantone on the C13 so all the extended voicings work reasonably well. |
Interesting. Scott, I'm pretty familiar with the ins and outs of ratio based tuning, but I just can't get my head around the various meantone systems. Is it quarter comma you use? I understand the goal of preserving the purity of the 5/4 major thirds and eliminating the comma by shrinking the 5ths, but I just don't get the logic of meantone as it would relate to a diatonic tuning scenario. Maybe you could explain it better than the resources I've come across. ( This is obviously off topic but would be worthwhile to discuss, in my oppinion.) |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 8:56 pm
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| Quote: |
| I had a fifth pedal that I would use to raise the 6th to a b7th. I liked that, although it was simple. Useful for 7th chords (obviously) but I could also do some nice things by combining it with the AB pedals. |
Yes that's it. That one string raised up to b7 introduces a whole new tonal centre potentially, especially combined w other changes. In that sense I suppose its like building chord tones off of the 9th string on traditional E9. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 3 Jul 2021 9:01 pm
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| Quote: |
knowing what I know now, I would go D13.
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So true!  |
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Scott Swartz
From:
St. Louis, MO
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Posted 4 Jul 2021 10:20 am
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I am using the 2.5 cent meantone as b0b discusses here.
https://b0b.com/infoedu/WellTemperedC6th.html
I used to use a 3.6 cent meantone where the thirds are perfect JI, but this makes the 5ths sounds farther out. I decided the 2.5 gives a better compromise of the sounds of the 3rds 5ths and extensions
_________________
Scott Swartz
Steeltronics - Steel Guitar Pickups
www.steeltronics.com |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2021 11:33 am
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| Scott Swartz wrote: |
I am using the 2.5 cent meantone as b0b discusses here.
https://b0b.com/infoedu/WellTemperedC6th.html
I used to use a 3.6 cent meantone where the thirds are perfect JI, but this makes the 5ths sounds farther out. I decided the 2.5 gives a better compromise of the sounds of the 3rds 5ths and extensions |
Yes, I like 2.5 as well (i.e., 5ths are 697.5 cents wide.) Another problem with tuning 5ths 3.6 cents narrower than ET, besides the problem you mentioned, is that there is no room for error in your just-tempered major thirds if (I mean when) the guitar goes out of tune and your major thirds go narrower than 400-(4*3.6) cents.
Your choice of 2.5 cents means that your fifths about as far from just as your major thirds are:
fifths: 702 - 697.5 = 4.5 cents
major thirds: 390 - 386 = 4 cents
and I am quite accustomed to hearing those intervals as sounding in tune. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 4 Jul 2021 11:37 am
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| An "extra" string pitched between your 2nd (D#) and 5th (B) would be useful, not only because there is a big gap between those pitches, but also because that is the sweet sounding range on the steel, especially for chord-melody. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 4 Jul 2021 1:11 pm
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Thanks for the link to that meantime page Scott. Its starting to make sense. The end result of the -2.5cent 5ths approach ends up yielding a result that is pretty similar to how I tune on E9, wherein 5ths are straight up but 3rds, 6ths & maj7s are about 8-10 cents smaller than ET on most voicings. The cab drop is factored in there too, but the system I use is based on diatonic chord tuning that honours the basic audible overtones.
I think its the 'wolf tone' thing that has always thrown me when trying to get my head around meantime systems, but the way its laid out in Bob's C6 copedant makes total sense, as all the changes can be set up without involving that G#/Ab discrepancy issue.
I suppose its fitting that we're on to this topic while inside a discussion of 13th tunings, as introducing the 6th into a 9th based harmonic system will potentially present tuning issues. The 'regular' C# on the A pedal of E9 seems to actually benefit from the cab drop in terms of lining up with the F#s. And it also seems like the absence of any open C#s on E9 is there for a reason in this sense. But I really don't think that would a huge problem. I imagine the open C# on E13 would want to be in tune with the 3rds, G#, and how well it works as a 5th of F# would be a personal choice in one's tuning priorities.
Ive heard talk of the unison issues in the upper register. Unwanted sympathetic resonation and so on. Again my view is limited to the hypothetical here, but I'd think the advantages would out weigh any drawbacks. Contrary motion possibilities seem substantial, as well as all the Hendrixy unison bends to throw in here and there. The grips would indeed take some getting used to, but I think having that 'extra' tone in there would ultimately be an asset. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 4 Jul 2021 1:40 pm
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| Quote: |
| An "extra" string pitched between your 2nd (D#) and 5th (B) would be useful, not only because there is a big gap between those pitches, but also because that is the sweet sounding range on the steel, especially for chord-melody. |
Yes indeed, that's been my thinking also. That said, there are advantages to having that concentrated triadic harmony on adjacent strings w standard E9. I don't know if I would miss that. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 9 Jul 2021 10:01 pm
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| Andrew Frost wrote: |
| That said, there are advantages to having that concentrated triadic harmony on adjacent strings w standard E9. I don't know if I would miss that. |
You might, but having a pentatonic scale on adjacent strings across the board is a real for kick soloing blues.  The licks are more intuitive when the strings are in ascending order.
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Chris Scruggs
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 10 Jul 2021 10:44 am
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| You mention wanting to keep the chromatic strings, but remember, with an E13 tuning you have a C# that already sits in the middle of the tuning. Many great E9 players (Mike “Cookie†Jones and Weldon Myrick) tuned their second string to C# and brought it up to Ed. You could do the same thing on the C# string that’s already inside of the 13th tuning, as that’s one less redundant string (it’s already semi-redundant because I assume your B will also pull up to C#, giving some nice unison opportunities). I’d raise the C# to D and Ed ((maybe with a half stop and maybe with two levers), add an F# chromatic (situated on the top of the tuning, much like the D on C6), and consider those the “chromatics.†I would also probably make this a 12 string tuning (different from Buddy’s 12 string E13, but maintaining the same concept of combing E9th, E13th, and E6th sounds into one tuning). |
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Bas Kapitein
From:
Holland
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Posted 11 Jul 2021 1:11 am
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| Yes Chris. I did that and on top of that I brought the whole thing down to D. Inspired by B0b's D6th tuning and the variuos variations he proposed here on the forum or in his blog. I play an Sierra S-12 that sounds like it is made for this "one step" lower tuning. |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 11 Jul 2021 6:39 am
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Ya that makes good sense to have just the 9th on top similar to a C6 w/D set up, and have the maj7 as a raise from the major 6th.
1 F#
2 G#
3 E
4 C# ( to D/D# )
5 B
etc...
A number of my hypothetical copedant ideas have involved this approach. It lends itself to a 10 string set up nicely as well. On paper at least.
The reason I'm interested in having both chromatic strings on top is to use them in the familiar E9 type phrasing. They are incredibly useful strings that are kind of integral to the sound and feel of E9, in my experience anyway, so in setting up a tuning that really incorporates 9th/6th/13th characteristics, those strings seem essential. Of note, I've never had the C# drop on string 2, just D# to D. So my thinking never involves a 6th tone being on string 2 (although in the past I experimented with a C# or D that levers up like Weldon's approach Chris mentioned, and it does yield some great stuff. )
In my understanding, Buddy raised his C# string 4 up a half step to D. 1 & 2 were like E9 still, but the D# didn't lower at all. I could be wrong - I get the impression his 13th tuning was a constant work in progress.
All that said, getting back to the idea of having just the F# on top ( or E on D13 ), there would indeed be ways of working around the 'missing' maj7 string. And It would justify having a pedal 7 type change that raises E & C# up a tone to F# & D#...
1 F#
2 G#
3 E > F#
4 C# > D#
5 B
This would also bring a '5th on top' voicing to the B6 possibilities w/ Es lowered,
( particularly if the D was on a lever. )
1 F#
2 G#
3 E > F#
4 C# > D#
5 B
6 G#
7 F#
8 E > D#
9 B ( D )
10 G #
etc..
Lots of possibilities.
Thanks for your comments fellas. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 11 Jul 2021 7:36 am
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| Andrew Frost wrote: |
Ya that makes good sense to have just the 9th on top similar to a C6 w/D set up, and have the maj7 as a raise from the major 6th.
1 F#
2 G#
3 E
4 C# ( to D/D# )
5 B
etc...
A number of my hypothetical copedant ideas have involved this approach. It lends itself to a 10 string set up nicely as well. On paper at least. |
That's exactly what I'm doing on my RKR. It works well, but it took a while to get used to. If I didn't have decades of standard E9th in my right hand, it would have been a no-brainer.
| Quote: |
All that said, getting back to the idea of having just the F# on top ( or E on D13 ), there would indeed be ways of working around the 'missing' maj7 string. And It would justify having a pedal 7 type change that raises E & C# up a tone to F# & D#...
1 F#
2 G#
3 E > F#
4 C# > D#
5 B |
That's the standard C6th P7 change, moved up to E6th. I also have that E > F# raise on my LKV, so I can move those two strings independently.
1 F#
2 G#
3 E > F# on LKV
4 C# > D/D# on RKR
5 B
(I tune the whole guitar down a step to D, but the same ideas apply.)
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Paul Strojan
From:
California, USA
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Posted 14 Jul 2021 7:29 pm
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As a new steel guitar player I like idea of an E13 tuning because I can directly apply much of what I have learned on c6 and E6 lap steel. I have a Fender 800 that I am getting set up with an E13 tuning: F#, G#, E, C#, B, G#, F#, E, D, B.
Pedal 1 will raise the Es to F
Pedal 2 raises the Bs to C#
Pedal 3 raises G#s to A
Pedal 4 lowers E to Eb
Pedal 5 raises the High F# to G and the C# to D
Pedal 6 raises C# to D# and the high E to F#
When Buddy Emmons added the D# chromatic string was that before the E lower lever? |
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Daniel McKee
From:
Corinth Mississippi
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Posted 17 Jul 2021 7:44 pm
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| Anyone have the string gauges for Johnny Cox version of D13? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 20 Jul 2021 6:43 am
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| Quote: |
| When Buddy Emmons added the D# chromatic string was that before the E lower lever? |
That's a good question Paul. I don't know. I'd think the Es were already being lowered before the D# string was introduced, but I could be wrong.
Ray Price's "You took her off my hands" is allegedly the first recording with said "chromatics", and I think they were at the bottom of the tuning. The style of that solo and contemporary recordings sounds like the kind of playing that involves E's lowering, suggesting that Es were indeed already coming down a semitone.
I don't know, maybe others who do know will chime in.
For what its worth, the F raise was introduced mid 60s (66/67) generally credited to Lloyd Green who emphatically does not lower his 4th string because of return pitch issues, if that's any kind of clue.
Your E13 set up sounds very cool! |
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2021 7:56 am
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Johnie King
From:
Tennessee, USA
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Posted 20 Jul 2021 7:56 am
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