| Author |
Topic: Dominant 7th Tunings: anybody still using them? |
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 16 Jun 2021 12:17 pm |
|
I’ve been fooling with 7th tunings again. D7 to be exact. As a player who plays mostly blues, 7ths are more useful than 6ths. For minor chords I’m just omitting the 3rd.
Very intuitive and sounds pretty good for both major and minor blues improvisation.
Historically, I think that E7 was one of the earliest “standard†tunings after high bass A. I’m just wondering if any other SGF members regularly use 7th tunings…13ths and Major 7ths don’t count  (they include minor triads).
My tuning is D A D F# C D / D A D F# A C D
Or
E B E G# B D / E B E G# B D E
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database
Last edited by Allan Revich on 18 Jun 2021 3:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
Fred
From:
Amesbury, MA
|
Posted 16 Jun 2021 1:16 pm
|
|
Well, variations of E13 still seem to be pretty common. A lot of folks put a Bb at the bottom of C6 for a C13. I’ve played the Leavitt tuning for a long time. It’s loaded with dominants.
Fred |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 16 Jun 2021 2:03 pm
|
|
| Fred wrote: |
Well, variations of E13 still seem to be pretty common. A lot of folks put a Bb at the bottom of C6 for a C13. I’ve played the Leavitt tuning for a long time. It’s loaded with dominants.
Fred |
Fred, 13ths don’t count. I’m curious about tunings with no minor triads under a straight bar. |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 16 Jun 2021 5:28 pm
|
|
Geez - if you have a b7 tuning, it's a half-step down to a 6th tone. Or vice-versa. I re-tune a basic 6th or b7th tuning at will to give any combination of 6th, b7th, 13th tunings, or tune the bottom root up a half-tone to b2 for a 6/b7 tuning - e.g., C6/A7, A6/F#7, or G6/E7.
I think you're making too much of this. They're all useful. I play blues too, and 6ths and b7th intervals are both useful there. Sometimes one more than the other. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 16 Jun 2021 5:57 pm
|
|
I just set up a D8 for my brother with G major and E7th. A guitarist new to steel, he's taking to it like a fish to water.
G Major: D G B D G B D G
E7th: E G# B E G# B D E
I think these are both good tunings for guitar players without a background in music theory.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 16 Jun 2021 6:39 pm
|
|
| Dave Mudgett wrote: |
Geez - if you have a b7 tuning, it's a half-step down to a 6th tone. Or vice-versa. I re-tune a basic 6th or b7th tuning at will to give any combination of 6th, b7th, 13th tunings, or tune the bottom root up a half-tone to b2 for a 6/b7 tuning - e.g., C6/A7, A6/F#7, or G6/E7.
I think you're making too much of this. They're all useful. I play blues too, and 6ths and b7th intervals are both useful there. Sometimes one more than the other. |
You may be right Dave. With the 7th on the 2nd string, it’s easy to drop to B for D6 or raise to C# for DM7, and raising the D to E opens up a slew of other options. However, I’m finding the simple D7 tuning to be really enjoyable. So wondering if anyone else is also happy with the Simple Seven. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 16 Jun 2021 7:04 pm
|
|
One great thing about b7 tunings is that they put the defining tri-tone for the I7, IV7, and V7 chords all on adjacent frets. For example:
| Tab: |
Key of G
C7 tuning C7 G7 D7 C7 G7 D7
E_____________6___7___8_________12__13__14_____
C_________________7_____________12______14_____
Bb____________6___7___8_________12__13__14_____
G_________________7_____________12______14_____
E_____________6___7___8_________12__13__14_____
C_________________7_____________12______14_____
IV7 I7 V7 IV7 I7 V7
|
Great for blues
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
|
Posted 16 Jun 2021 7:40 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
| So wondering if anyone else is also happy with the Simple Seven. |
Sure - for some things, b7 tunings work very nicely indeed. E7 is pretty much the de facto standard for Sacred Steel, and it works well for some blues too. But there are so many variations to blues. A lot of blues has a strong swing/jazz feel to it and the 6th and especially the 6/7 tunings can really open things up in that arena.
My point is that if you stick with the standardized 6th or 7th tunings, you have them all with a trivial tweak of a tuning gear or two, with the same set of strings. And it's bloody nice to have them all.
I've been delving more deeply into C6 pedal steel the last year. The pedal/lever usage is very different than E9, and some are more designed to allow various kinds of tuning changes on the fly with one neck. For example, the standard C6 Pedal 8 Boo-Wah pedal basically converts C6 into a C6/A7, with a couple of extra notes on the bottom. Another typical change raises the 6ths to b7ths. And so on. And you can do a lot of the same things on a steel with no pedals by simple re-tunings like this. So I'm finding myself playing more often with an S/D/T-8 non-pedal steel, even to the point of sometimes just taking just that to the gig, no pedal steel. But if I was stuck with just one type of tuning, it would be harder to get the stylistic range I want. |
|
|
|
David M Brown
From:
California, USA
|
Posted 18 Jun 2021 6:53 am
|
|
I still play the old E7 sometimes:
B D E G# B E
and alter it to:
B D E G# C# E |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 18 Jun 2021 10:31 am
|
|
Right now I’m kinda forcing myself to keep to the 7th tunings. They let me cover about 95% of the music that I typically play. Sure, I don’t have the same versatility or flexibility that a 6th, 13th, or other extended tuning might provide, but on the other hand I remind myself that many players—even very famous ones—have happily built solid careers using basic, open major chord tunings. My tuning gives me that sweet bluesy flat 7th on top of the major. Puts me in my happy place. 
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
|
|
|
Dan Koncelik
From:
New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 19 Jun 2021 12:42 pm
|
|
In both of my primary learning methods from the same time period (late 30's), Alvino Rey's 'Modern Guitar Hawaiian Style' and the 'Gibson System for Hawaiian Guitar' (I think also written by Mr. Rey, at least in part) the lessons start in high bass A but switch to E7 (L-H E,B,D,G#, B,E)—different from any of the 7th tunings listed in this thread.
In music of that time there seemed to be a (sudden) need for it. I wish I knew why. This is a page from the 'Modern Guitar' book:
 Why was it his favorite? Why did he think it best? One day, I hope to get to carefully studying E7 but I've barely started to study, much less analyze, high bass A.
Ars Longa, Vita Brevis  |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 19 Jun 2021 9:26 pm
|
|
One could spend a lifetime with a three note major tuning, as Allan mentioned, and there's another whole world inside a 4 note tuning..
As far as the 6th vs 7th thing goes on a 6 string set up, personally, If I had to choose, I'd go with a 6th tuning because it has a diatonic quality in the I, IV and V positions. The dom7 sounds can still be found in other pockets with double stops and partial chord voicings. |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 19 Jun 2021 11:00 pm
|
|
| Dan Koncelik wrote: |
E7 (L-H E,B,D,G#, B,E)—different from any of the 7th tunings listed in this thread.
In music of that time there seemed to be a (sudden) need for it. I wish I knew why. |
I recommend highly Guy Cundell's thesis and his other great academic work and transcriptions for anyone interested in the evolution of tunings in the 30s.
If I recall correctly, he gets into the need at the time for new tunings that could better reflect the growing jazz repertoire and harmony of the time.
I like that E7th you mentioned quite a bit, it's cool not to have the root in the middle, similar to many of the 8 string E13th tunings.
I mentioned this in another thread recently: Dick McIntire's Hot Licks Folio has some great tabs in that E7th beginning on, I believe, page 9:
https://www.yumpu.com/xx/document/view/57583078/dick-mcintires-hot-licks-folio
In the picture you posted Rey is playing a double neck, and the front neck has 7 or 8 strings.
Who knows how he extended the tuning! I'm guessing the method does not mention it.
Mentioned above by David M. Brown, my favorite, and maybe the most advanced 6th string tuning of that era (before C6th and 8 stringers took over) was the Hawaiian E13th(High to low):
E C# G# E D B
In a similar vein to Rey's thoughts about E7th, you may find these comments by Eddie Alkire on the E13th interesting.
From some early instructional material, perhaps circa 1941-46:
"This famous variation of the "EHA Trio Tuning" [Anyone know what this is? Maybe an early predecessor to his Eharp tuning?] is most useful for 6 string guitars.
It is the tuning which nearly all professional and advanced players eventually adopt and feature.
This latest most modern tuning combines many of the good features of all tunings.
Five of the strings (65431) correspond with E 7th Tuning.
Four of the strings (4321) correspond with C# Minor Tuning.
Three of the strings (421) correspond with A Major Tuning.
Thus the range of Harmonics is considerably greater.
Such Frequently used chords as Minor, Minor added 6th, Major added 6th, Dom. 13th, Dom. 9th, Dom 7th, Dom. 7th aug. are playable in the E 13th Tuning.
Whether you are studying as a hobby, for a teaching career, for solo work, or an orchestra job, you will want to concentrate on this Tuning.
Note to E 7th Players: You can easily tune to E 13th.
Sound a harmonic on the G# 3rd string at 5. Raise the B 2nd string (one tone to C#) until a harmonic at 12 is in unison.
YOU WILL ENJOY THE ADDED HARMONIC POSSIBILITIES!"
On another piece of instructional material dated 1941, 1946:
"E13th is our adaptation of C# minor and E7th tunings. E13th combines the good points of each of these tunings. The strings from 6th to 1st are: BDEG#C#E
This valuable tuning is used by many professionals almost entirely. Many solos are more effective in this tuning and technic work particularly is more convenient."
Food for thought! |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 19 Jun 2021 11:33 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
Note to E 7th Players: You can easily tune to E 13th.
Sound a harmonic on the G# 3rd string at 5. Raise the B 2nd string (one tone to C#) until a harmonic at 12 is in unison. |
hmmmm not sure Mr Alkire thought that one through thoroughly.... |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 1:01 am
|
|
| Andrew Frost wrote: |
hmmmm not sure Mr Alkire thought that one through thoroughly.... |
You're right! Does not work, funny. Alkire was quite prolific and I suspect that this may be at the expense of editing and occasionally the quality of the written music...
But wait, there's more! on the same page.
Going from A High bass to E13th:
"TUNING THE FIFTH STRING. Test your guitar to see that it is in perfect high bass tuning. Now make a harmonic on the
A THIRD STRING AT THE 12th FRET
This will produce the tone A. Raise the Fifth string until a harmonic of the fifth string at 7 is in unison with this A on the third string at 12.
TUNING THE SIXTH STRING. Make a harmonic on the
FOURTH STRING AT THE 7th FRET.
This gives the tone B.
Raise the sixth string until a harmonic at the fifth fret is in unison with this B.
TUNING THE THIRD STRING. Strike a harmonic on the
SECOND STRING AT THE 7th FRET
which produces G# above the staff. Then lower the third string until a harmonic at 5 is in unison.
The first second and fourth strings are not altered. They remain E, C#, E. The third string has been lowered to G#, the fifth string has been raised to D,
the sixth string has been raised to B. Striking harmonics at the 12th fret the six strings produce the tones shown in this example. B D E G# C# E"
It's easy to take for granted the ordeal that tuning must have been, I am happy with the free app on my iPhone.
Brass/woodwind company Conn invented the strobe tuner sometime in the mid 30s. Around that time, they traded a few of their new tuners for some 8000 series Heckel bassoons, so they could study and copy them for their own bassoon manufacturing.
Those old Stroboconn tuners while super cool are pretty obsolete! Meanwhile, those old Heckels are among the most desirable bassoons and would probably be worth at least 30k a piece today!
Speaking of retrospective investments:
Dark finish Custom like mine in the 1952 Fender catalog: $274.50
Telecaster: 189.50 (same price as the dark finish Dual Pro, blond was $10 extra!)
Allan, I apologize for all these digressions in your thread! |
|
|
|
Dan Koncelik
From:
New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 5:46 am
|
|
| Quote: |
I recommend highly Guy Cundell's thesis and his other great academic work and transcriptions for anyone interested in the evolution of tunings in the 30s.
If I recall correctly, he gets into the need at the time for new tunings that could better reflect the growing jazz repertoire and harmony of the time. |
Thanks, Joe, for reminding me about Guy's thesis!
 On p. 97 he states that the widespread use of secondary dominants in the popular music of the time 'clearly made life difficult for steel guitar players'.
He continues: 'With the existing tunings of low A and E providing few options for forming dominant seventh chords, players had little choice but to alter their tunings to achieve them.'
| Quote: |
| As far as the 6th vs 7th thing goes on a 6 string set up, personally, If I had to choose, I'd go with a 6th tuning because it has a diatonic quality in the I, IV and V positions. The dom7 sounds can still be found in other pockets with double stops and partial chord voicings. |
Andrew, I was thinking similarly when comparing, say, High Bass A vs E7. Dominant 7 chords are available in various forms, like you said, and I find it an advantage of the A tuning to be able to have dominant 7 flavors with a slant, but more important, to be able NOT to have them all the time.
As for the origin of the specific tuning I mentioned, (L-H: E,B,D,G#,B,E) Mr. Cundell writes on p. 98 that it may have been used by Sol Hoopii on his recording of 'I Ain't Got Nobody' in 1927. He concludes: 'The tuning was widely subsequently adopted and appeared in method books of the 1930's.' |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 6:24 am
|
|
| Dan Koncelik wrote: |
Thanks, Joe, for reminding me about Guy's thesis! |
Thanks for the great followup! I should reread it myself.
| Dan Koncelik wrote: |
| Andrew, I was thinking similarly when comparing, say, High Bass A vs E7. Dominant 7 chords are available in various forms, like you said, and I find it an advantage of the A tuning to be able to have dominant 7 flavors with a slant, but more important, to be able NOT to have them all the time. |
This is a very valid point that should be discussed more! Those “simpler†tunings can be advantageous by avoiding certain sounds. I believe the E13th discussed in posts above has a unique sound is because it lacks a lot of major triad options. That deficiency gives it a unique flavor. Same with A tuning, The slants are more than enough to imply what you need.
Have you explored Roy Smeck’s reentrant A7th tuning? From an old post on the forum by a gentleman who met and had a lesson with him:
“The tuning he used was what is sometimes known as Kealoha’s A7th,
a standard ‘A’ high bass with the exception of the sixth string, which is replaced by a third, and tuned to a ‘G’, one step below the ‘A’ third string.
Roy used a broken slant to lower the sixth string one fret, thus giving a sixth voicing which he used in the many various ways most of us know of, plus, I am sure, knowing Roy Smeck, many other ways as well.â€
source: https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum2/HTML/004019.html
I am pretty sure the tuning is covered in the Kealoha method book which appears on eBay, and am less sure that it is in some period instructional material by Smeck. Maybe worth exploring, as one would retain those classic high bass sounds and can add the g string in to taste for occasional 7ths (and 6ths from the slide described in the quoted post).
You see a fair number of those old 7 string guitars from the late 30s and early 40s have a reentrant string for groove 7… I suspect that this may have been a means to keep the whole high bass tuning as well as get that reentrant 7th interval! But it’s hard to know! |
|
|
|
Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 7:45 am
|
|
| Quote: |
“The tuning he used was what is sometimes known as Kealoha’s A7th,
a standard ‘A’ high bass with the exception of the sixth string, which is replaced by a third, and tuned to a ‘G’, one step below the ‘A’ third string. |
Wild. Kealoha 7th. I'm typing it so I remember it! Hadn't heard of it, but it is definitely fitting for this thread.
| Quote: |
But wait, there's more! on the same page.
Going from A High bass to E13th: |
There's been some mild hi-jacking of the thread ( my apologies Allan  ) but this discussion of E13 is very relevant to the 6th vs 7th theme.
I've found that tuning from high bass to 13th presents an option for string 5 wherein it can be a b7 or a 6th as follows:
high bass A
E
C#
A
E
C#
A
E13
E
C#
G#
E
D
B
I love the sound of this tuning, but often find a 6th chord tone on string 5 to be more immediately useful in many positions, as mentioned above, and it turns the tuning into E6, or C#m7. (I use high bass G and D13 but the same thing is going on down a wholetone).
E6
E
C#
G#
E
C#
B |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 8:07 am
|
|
| Andrew Frost wrote: |
| Wild. Kealoha 7th. I'm typing it so I remember it! Hadn't heard of it, but it is definitely fitting for this thread. |
Found the auction pics I saw, I should have bought the book, it was 5 bucks!
What a badass picture and foreword... my favorite part is the bit about the ethics of harmony and music.
Allan, what do you make of this, seeing as you are the re-entrant 7 string steel man of this century!
Check it out, Mr. Ylan K. Kealoha:
 |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 8:59 am
|
|
| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
| Andrew Frost wrote: |
| Wild. Kealoha 7th. I'm typing it so I remember it! Hadn't heard of it, but it is definitely fitting for this thread. |
Found the auction pics I saw, I should have bought the book, it was 5 bucks!
What a badass picture and foreword... my favorite part is the bit about the ethics of harmony and music.
Allan, what do you make of this, seeing as you are the re-entrant 7 string steel man of this century!
Check it out… |
LOL, I seem to change tunings more often then some people change underwear. I learn a lot—don’t get much better. But this thread has become epic in the information being uncovered and shared. Awesome!
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
|
|
|
Joe A. Roberts
From:
Seoul, South Korea
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 9:42 am
|
|
| Allan Revich wrote: |
LOL, I seem to change tunings more often then some people change underwear. I learn a lot—don’t get much better. But this thread has become epic in the information being uncovered and shared. Awesome! |
Allan, if you are back to a 7 string open G, perhaps you could throw a reentrant F string on string 7 (or 6) and try the Kealoaha tab pages above.
I am very curious about them but I don't have anything strung up close enough to try the tuning without drastic restringing  |
|
|
|
Mike Schway
From:
Washington, USA
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 1:09 pm
|
|
My Kumu, Alan Akaka, recently gave me tabs to the beautiful and iconic mele, Waipi'o in a high-bass A7. Bottom to top, it's spelled C# E G A C# E. The 7th note is smack in the middle of the bar giving a nicely lush dominant 7th in a few inversions. The biggest problem (other than being a brand new tuning that I haven't really internalized) is that the tonic chord is now a 2 fret three string slant. Tough to get in tune if you're going into it cold and inexperienced like myself.
--Mike |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 1:24 pm
|
|
| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
| Allan Revich wrote: |
LOL, I seem to change tunings more often then some people change underwear. I learn a lot—don’t get much better. But this thread has become epic in the information being uncovered and shared. Awesome! |
Allan, if you are back to a 7 string open G, perhaps you could throw a reentrant F string on string 7 (or 6) and try the Kealoaha tab pages above.
I am very curious about them but I don't have anything strung up close enough to try the tuning without drastic restringing |
Well I did try it again. fGBDGBD. Though I once liked the tuning, it didn’t do anything for me today. I prefer the Dobro G with a D on string 7, or my alternate 7 string 7th tuning in D or E, 1 5 1 3 5 7 1
BTW while I can read tab and notation I do so at a pace that is too slow to really useful. IE/ if I was in a band and the leader said “I want you to learn this song as writtenâ€, I could do it, but I would not enjoy the process.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
|
|
|
Dan Koncelik
From:
New Jersey, USA
|
Posted 20 Jun 2021 4:54 pm
|
|
| Quote: |
Joe A. Roberts wrote:
Allan, if you are back to a 7 string open G, perhaps you could throw a reentrant F string on string 7 (or 6) and try the Kealoaha tab pages above.
I am very curious about them but I don't have anything strung up close enough to try the tuning without drastic restringing Crying or Very sad
Well I did try it again. fGBDGBD. Though I once liked the tuning, it didn’t do anything for me today. |
I might as well use this opportunity to come out as an aspiring 're-entrant 7-string man of this century': (L-H) f#, A, C#, E, A, C#, E.
Inspired by this thread I might just sharpen my f# to g—a 6 up to a 7. That Kealoha book looks very interesting! I'd like to try some of the endings to see if they'd translate to 7-string re-entrant…
Continuing: One of my old Roy Smeck songbooks from 1954 has a double staff with two 7 tunings, the 'old E7' (B D E G# B E) mentioned by David Brown above and, of course, the Roy Smeck preferred A7 tuning (g C# E A C# E):
So even as late as 1954 it seems that there were thought to have been enough people playing these old tunings to publish a songbook written for them… |
|
|
|
Allan Revich
From:
Victoria, BC
|
Posted 13 Jul 2021 10:40 pm
|
|
| Joe A. Roberts wrote: |
| Allan Revich wrote: |
LOL, I seem to change tunings more often then some people change underwear. I learn a lot—don’t get much better. But this thread has become epic in the information being uncovered and shared. Awesome! |
Allan, if you are back to a 7 string open G, perhaps you could throw a reentrant F string on string 7 (or 6) and try the Kealoaha tab pages above.
I am very curious about them but I don't have anything strung up close enough to try the tuning without drastic restringing |
I was inspired by this to try a reentrant e instead of the f for a G6 tuning, eGBDGBD.I like it. I also still like my D7 7-string tuning of DADF#ACD for a heavier rocking and raucous sound.
As mentioned by a couple people in this thread, it’s a simple semitones twist of a single tuning knob to go back and forth from a 6th to a 7th tuning.
_________________
Current Tunings:
6 String | G – D G D G B D
7 String | G9 – D G B D F A D
https://papadafoe.com/lap-steel-tuning-database |
|
|
|
