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Topic: Would be nice if folks here knew the language of music |
Edward Dixon
From:
Crestview Florida
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 6:42 am |
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| Mike Wilson wrote: |
| sure would be nice if there were "like" emojis to click on if you like a statement or answer that someone gives. Agree with Rick McNamara. |
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"Faith don't need no second opinion." |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 6:54 am
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What is the purpose of acquiring the knowledge of music theory?
Can it make you a better player? (Yes, though not automatically, as per Bob C’s comment)
Can it help you understand what you are listening to? (Yes, but might take some of the enjoyment out if you’re not careful)
Can it make you sound like a pompous ass in a discussion about music? (Yes, if you are a pompous ass to begin with)
The positives outweigh the negatives for me, but what Jon Voth described in his comment about advanced studies sounds frightening, if also impressive. |
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Edward Dixon
From:
Crestview Florida
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 7:13 am
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As far as PSG....
I just started learning at the end of February this year. An understanding of Theory has helped me learn to manipulate this instrument. I think I've watched every video on you tube about PSG in the last 3 months. Of course it helps to understand what a 4 chord is, it's one less thing to learn in the process of actually being able to play the instrument. Most of the instructional videos I've seen use terms like root third fifth minor 2nd relative minor..... and so on. Still, the main focus is how to manipulate the pedals, levers, bar and picks on the strings. It can be taught without mentioning theory and sometimes is.
So I see theory, music notation and so on as instructional tools. Everything has a time and place.
_________________
"Faith don't need no second opinion." |
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Joel Jackson
From:
Detroit
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 7:30 am
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| I'm very much an "ear" and "feel" player and am grateful for every ounce of music theory I have behind me. In regards to others level of engagement with theory, it's always somewhat relative and situational. I play with folks who think i'm a freaking music genius for being familiar with concepts as simple as "tag", or "turn around", or "1 6 2 5", and i play with some very musically educated and talented folks who have to wear sun glasses when they play with me so i can't see their eyes roll when i play some dumb BS altered extended whatever that works poorly. Some one always knows more, some one always know less. What i do try to do is use what theory i do know to help other players i'm playing with understand what's happening when they're having trouble, as many more knowledgeable players who i'm very grateful to have done for me along the way. |
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Andrew Goulet
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 8:00 am
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I know some pedal steel music theory that's helped me get through many gigs.
The theory is that if I practice enough and it's late enough at night, the crowd will think that I'm pretty good. 
_________________
Marlen S12 and a ZT Club |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 8:01 am
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Would be nice if folks here knew the language of music
“would be nice†way too passive opening statement for a control freak.
How does knowledge in anyway hinder your ability to communicate.
I just find it frustrating having to write the whole book as a title or have the subject train go of the tracks with others ganging up and saying:
“no there’s more to it than that you ignorant *#$%4^*, it’s this thingofamajig followed by some kinda doda doda dayâ€
Disclaimer: Might have exaggerated a little.
I love The Steel Guitar Forum and all you (gender inclusive) folks, just saying "would be nice" |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 8:09 am
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"Would be nice" can sometimes be used ironically or sarcastically, so it's not automatically innocent.
Just saying. I don't know what set Stuart off either - maybe it was just spontaneous combustion - but the interesting posts are outweighing the negatives, so nothing lost.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Jimmie Hudson
From:
North Carolina, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 8:37 am the language of music
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| the language of music. The way I see it is: Pick a few notes. If anyone starts to shake a leg. Pick it again. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 9:28 am
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And I wish I had said this too.
| Joel Jackson wrote: |
| I'm very much an "ear" and "feel" player and am grateful for every ounce of music theory I have behind me. In regards to others level of engagement with theory, it's always somewhat relative and situational. I play with folks who think i'm a freaking music genius for being familiar with concepts as simple as "tag", or "turn around", or "1 6 2 5", and i play with some very musically educated and talented folks who have to wear sun glasses when they play with me so i can't see their eyes roll when i play some dumb BS altered extended whatever that works poorly. Some one always knows more, some one always know less. What i do try to do is use what theory i do know to help other players i'm playing with understand what's happening when they're having trouble, as many more knowledgeable players who i'm very grateful to have done for me along the way. |
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Cappone dAngelo
From:
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 10:00 am
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| Bill McCloskey wrote: |
To me this is split into two groups.
1. Learning to read, vs not learning to read.
2. Learning theory vs not learning theory.
3. Improvising vs playing what is written.
I know classical musicians who can play anything put in front of them but couldn’t improvise their way out of a paper bag and they don’t know or need to know theory. But they know how to sight read.
I know musicians who can improvise over changes but can’t read a note.
You can improvise without knowing theory by just playing chord tones.
There is no simple answer. Personally i think learning to read is more important than learning theory |
Agreed - 'reading music' and 'knowing theory' are completely different, as is being able to improvise and compose - though they are often complementary skills, and the top players I've gigged with are typically masters of all 3 (I certainly am NOT, though for my whole life have tried to advance my skills on each of them).
I think of theory like grammar - an individual can have excellent grammar but not be able to articulate the difference between a noun and a verb, just like some players can improvise and compose without knowing the difference between a plagal cadence and a tierce de picardy. Some players do know the difference and can't improvise or compose to save their life. And for some of us, the study of theory has helped us improvise and compose, as well as help us communicate with other performers, producers, etc. I see no downside whatsoever to learning theory, so while I agree that some players can accomplish everything they want without it, for some of us it has allowed us to improve our playing (including improvising and composing, which I realize is not the goal of some/many players, and also I realize that some players can master improve and composition without studying any theory - though I certainly am not one of them!).
I think of reading music like reading written language - you don't need to be able to read in order to speak, including being able to speak with excellent grammar. But it does mean you can't read a book, which in some contexts can be quite limiting. As a sax player, I would have gotten nowhere without reading music (including playing in big bands, classical ensembles, and studying at university). As a 6 string guitarists, for most of my life I rarely needed to read music - though in recent years I was invited to play some musical theatre gigs which would have been impossible if I couldn't read - even if I could learn and memorize all the parts from cast recordings, that doesn't help when the MD puts a new addition in front of you at first rehearsal and you've never even heard the tune before (which has happened to me multiple times in only a handful of shows) or you're playing a new production that's never been recorded (which I've also done). On PSG, I'm nowhere near being able to sight-read, but I have been obtaining sheet music and learning from it and an hoping to become more competent sight-reading on steel than I am on 6 string.
And there are different languages - while there is overlap/similarities between English and French, there also are between Western classical and jazz - they use most of the same letters and some of the same words, but the sentences are mostly very different. Bahasa Indonesian has less overlap with English and French, just like Balinese Gamelon has less overlap with classical and jazz.
All that to say I see no downside to learning theory, and for many/most players it is absolutely helpful for improving playing, especially for improv and composition. But if a player has ears that allow them to get to 'Buddy Emmons' level of skill without knowing a lick of theory or being able to read, why bother. But for mere mortals like me, it's been a huge advantage, and if anyone has questions about theory, at whatever level, I will try to answer and otherwise help support your learning, and I look forward to learning from others here! |
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Edward Dixon
From:
Crestview Florida
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 10:10 am
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As far as I know, there are no forum rules against posting in the language of Music Theory, just foreign languages that are not translated into English.
Anyone who wants to ask about music theory can (and should). Anyone who wants to explain music theory can.
"Would be nice if folks here knew the language of music", implies that there is something lacking in "folks here", It's an offensive statement and based on a false premise. Many of us know theory, and knowing it, have no need to talk about it.
_________________
"Faith don't need no second opinion." |
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Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 10:21 am
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_________________
Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe. |
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Jerry Overstreet
From:
Louisville Ky
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 10:36 am
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Joel Jackson
From:
Detroit
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 10:58 am
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| Rick, I'm ashamed to say it took a second for me to get that. Must have done a little too much running thru the circle of fifths myself... |
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Rick Barnhart
From:
Arizona, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 11:07 am
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| Joel Jackson wrote: |
| Rick, I'm ashamed to say it took a second for me to get that |
😂 it’s just a theory 
_________________
Clinesmith consoles D-8/6 5 pedal, D-8 3 pedal & A25 Frypan, Pettingill Teardrop, & P8 Deluxe. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 11:19 am
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Took me a little longer. What you call a fifth we just call a bottle
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 11:36 am
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| Rick Barnhart wrote: |
| Joel Jackson wrote: |
| Rick, I'm ashamed to say it took a second for me to get that |
😂 it’s just a theory |
Yeah, but that’s still a lot of fifths...
One thing I will say about Stuart’s posts, he always seems to generate some buzz. |
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Cappone dAngelo
From:
Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 12:42 pm
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
| Rick Barnhart wrote: |
| Joel Jackson wrote: |
| Rick, I'm ashamed to say it took a second for me to get that |
😂 it’s just a theory |
Yeah, but that’s still a lot of fifths...
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it's generated from the 16-note scale |
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David Ball
From:
North Carolina High Country
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 1:43 pm
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I was trained as a bassoonist and also played classical guitar. My dad was a music professor and jazz pianist.
But he was also a stringband musician and later on an Irish button box player. I think in both of our cases, we had the underlying understanding of music theory (he much more so than me), but didn't really think about it consciously when we were playing country or traditional music. The theory was still back there, but there was no real need to talk or even think about it.
Dave |
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Stuart Legg
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 2:19 pm
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I was just saying “folks here†as in more than one but not necessarily all.
Was not to say “I think of anyone in this regard as inferiorâ€
I did however intend it to be an unapologetic shameless display of selfishness on my part.
I feel like it’s Groundhog Day and I’m hopelessly lost in the Music Theory section ‘Negative Harmony’ |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 4:13 pm
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It's real good to know the names of the chords you're playing with. That's the most common music language on the bandstand. Getting further than that into music theory is a choice, not a necessity in most of the music we are called upon to play.
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 4:23 pm
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Knowledge never hinders one’s ability to communicate. Poor communication skills do hinder it and that is a totally separate thing from “knowledgeâ€.... so with that I’ll see all y’all later.
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Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 4:47 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| It's real good to know the names of the chords you're playing with. That's the most common music language on the bandstand. Getting further than that into music theory is a choice, not a necessity in most of the music we are called upon to play. |
I wish it was more of a prerequisite. Just knowing the chords is pretty bare bones. People underestimate the importance of rhythm, as if everyone is born with a sense of it. I also think everyone should be able to diagram (chart) a song, at least rhythmically, so we all know how many measures are in the second verse before we get to the first pre-chorus. The times I have worked in bands with people who could do this were the most fun I have had and the best music I have taken part in making. The ones that were weak rhythmically were the worst. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 6:16 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| It's real good to know the names of the chords you're playing with. That's the most common music language on the bandstand. Getting further than that into music theory is a choice, not a necessity in most of the music we are called upon to play. |
| Fred Treece wrote: |
| I also think everyone should be able to diagram (chart) a song, at least rhythmically, so we all know how many measures are in the second verse before we get to the first pre-chorus. The times I have worked in bands with people who could do this were the most fun I have had and the best music I have taken part in making. The ones that were weak rhythmically were the worst. |
So often I encounter word-centric charts - the words to a song with chords written above them. Arrggh!  No timing indications at all. And even worse, the chords might be in the wrong key because bandleader uses a capo!  (That's where knowing music theory really comes in handy.)
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-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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John Macy
From:
Rockport TX/Denver CO
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Posted 6 Jun 2021 7:43 pm
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The Meanings of Music
Musical Terms Commonly Misunderstood by Country-Western Musicians, With Their Translated "Country" Definitions:
Diminished Fifth -- An empty bottle of Jack Daniels
Perfect Fifth -- A full bottle of Jack Daniels
Relative Major -- An uncle in the Marine Corps
Relative Minor -- A girlfriend
Big Band -- When the bar pays enough to bring two banjo players
Pianissimo -- "Refill this beer bottle"
Repeat -- What you do until they just expel you
Treble -- Women ain't nothin' but treble
Bass -- The things you run around in softball
Portamento -- A foreign country you've always wanted to see
Conductor -- The man who punches your ticket to Birmingham
Arpeggio -- "Ain't he that storybook kid with the big nose that grows?"
Tempo -- Good choice for a used car
A 440 -- The highway that runs around Nashville
Transpositions -- Men who wear dresses
Cut Time -- Parole
Order of Sharps -- What a wimp gets at the bar
Passing Tone -- Frequently heard near the baked beans at family barbecues
Middle C -- The only fruit drink you can afford when food stamps are low
Perfect Pitch -- The smooth coating on a freshly paved road
Tuba -- A compound word: "Hey, woman! Fetch me another tuba Bryll Cream!"
Cadenza -- That ugly thing your wife always vacuums dog hair off of when company comes
Whole Note -- What's due after failing to pay the mortgage for a year
Clef -- What you try never to fall off of
Bass Clef -- Where you wind up if you do fall off
Altos -- Not to be confused with "Tom's toes," "Bubba's toes," or "Dori-toes"
Minor Third -- Your approximate grade at the completion of formal schooling
Melodic Minor -- Loretta Lynn's singing dad
12-Tone Scale -- The thing the State Police weigh your tractor trailer truck with
Quarter Tone -- What most standard pickups can haul
Sonata -- What you get from a bad cold or hay fever
Clarinet -- Name used on your second daughter if you've already used Betty Jo
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John Macy
Rockport, TX
Engineer/Producer/Steel Guitar |
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