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Topic: Yes Another Tuning thread..., but I'm a NEW |
Peter Haverkamp
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 30 Apr 2021 3:18 pm |
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Okay, so I've only been playing a few weeks, and from what I can see, tuning can be a bit of a hot-button topic. I have a two-part question about tuning.
Part One:
Where can I find a diagram of the tuning nuts on the side of the guitar? (The one where you use the wrench to tune?) Does such a thing exist, or how do I learn which nut adjusts which pedal/knee lever? I'm having trouble finding this information online.
Part Two:
I am aware there is a debate over equal temperament vs just intonation, what is the best way for a beginner to go about learning to tune? I realize everyone has different ways, but surely there must be a definitive preference? I'd like to learn the "correct" way, before I go ahead |
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Lee Warren
From:
Nashville, Tennessee, USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2021 4:06 pm
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Hi Peter,
If you engage a pedal or knee lever while looking at the end of the guitar, you should see the related tuning nut(s) move.
By doing that, you can see which nut to tweak.
Lee
p.s.
Where are you in Ontario?
Last edited by Lee Warren on 1 May 2021 6:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Larry Jamieson
From:
Walton, NY USA
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Posted 30 Apr 2021 4:13 pm
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Peter, There is not a chart for the side tuning nuts because of the many different setups in use. What you have to do is look at those tuning nuts while you activate the pedal or knee lever you want to tune. Listen to the change. Does it raise or lower the string? If you have a good ear, you can adjust it (Just a bit at a time) until it is in tune.
Some pedals or levers will change more than one string. When looking at the tuning nuts, look for the one that moves on the string you want to tune, then adjust that nut.
If you are just beginning, use a standard tuner and tune each string to standard pitch. Then, if your ear tells you it is a little off, adjust as necessary. As a beginner, it may sound OK to tune to standard pitch. Tune the open strings first, then tune the pedals and knee levers as necessary. Good luck and enjoy... |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 May 2021 1:02 am
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Much has been written on ET v JI and all stations in between. Try doing like Larry says and use a standard tuner for starters, then retune any offensive results by ear as you encounter them. That way you will bypass years of reading on the subject and save a fortune on fancy tuners 
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Bill Miller
From:
Gaspe, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 1 May 2021 5:01 am
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| I've had a few electronic tuners over the years but the Peterson StroboPlus HD Strobe Tuner with optional Pitch Holder w/Swivel, widely available is the best solution I've ever tried. They're pricey compared to many but loaded with features. They have factory loaded presets for pedal steel e9 and c6 tunings as well as presets for tuning the pedals and knee levers for the Newman tempered tunings. They are extremely accurate, backlit so you can see them easily in any light and are available with the bracket ( pitch holder/swivel ) to clamp to your guitar leg. And recharging them is just a matter of plugging in a USB cable. Steel Guitars of Canada has them...and importantly, with the pitch holder option which is a no brainer for pedal steel. I can't imagine being without mine. We played a waterfront gig on a hot sunny day a couple of summers ago and now then a cool wind would come in off the water. My guitar tuning had to be tweaked every couple of songs but that was quickly taken care of with this tuner. It's a workhorse. |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 1 May 2021 6:32 am
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Yes, they're great tuners, but my point is that no-one absolutely needs one, certainly not a beginner unless he launches straight into doing outdoor gigs at sunset.
He'll learn more by listening and working out for himself whether it's in tune or not and if so why, than having a robot just tell him.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 1 May 2021 6:46 am
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Plus, you'll be hard pressed to find a Stroboplus HD, as they have discontinued it because a new product will be coming out soon. Reading posts on here pretty much say most places are out of stock.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Dale Rottacker
From:
Walla Walla Washington, USA
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Posted 1 May 2021 7:38 am
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Where was all this good advice when I started playing from under a rock in the stone age?
Peter, all of what you're reading here is good experienced advice. So my 2 cents isn't needed, BUT, since you're not paying for it and its Free, here it is.
Whatever guitar you have, press each pedal and activate each lever by themselves. And make note of which strings are being raised or lowered. And then correlate that with what you see happening at the changer end with those hex nuts, and adjust accordingly.
The "Standard" tuning is great advice, and the perfect place to start. And back to those hex nuts for a minute. You'll want to tune your guitar without pressing on pedals or levers before you start looking at those hex nuts.
When I started, I didn't know about digital or strobe tuners, but did know about pitch pipes and tuning forks, and did have a piano. And although I've gone down the rabbit hole of different tuners, starting out it was my ears that told me if I was in tune or not. Even back when and as unschooled as I was in the art of tuning, my ears would still guide me to what they thought was "In Tune". I tried tuning to a piano, because it was all I had to guide me, and I knew NOTHING about the mechanics or intervals, the nuance and peculiarity of tuning a steel, which is pretty much a "hair splitting adventure". YET, I discovered that tuning to a piano and then playing different string groupings did NOT satisfy my ear. And knowing nothing from nothing, this did NOT make sense to me. No Forum, No Internet, NoBODY, to show me Nuttin, I still had my ears. So even back then unbeknownst to me, I was sweetening my tuning to get it to sound right to my ear.
SO, long advice, made longer. I'd start by tuning my E's open at 442, or with pedals down at 440, (something else to argue about LOL) Then tune the rest of the strings from there. Once your ear is happy with that, now you can start on the pedals and levers using those hex nuts at the changer. You could also get a Harmonic Tuning Chart, (available in different places). That would definitely make you use your ear. I LOVE the visual of going to a SPOT, by a needle or the stopping movement of a strobe, but remember, we had fingers before we had forks   .
_________________
Dale Rottacker, Steelinatune™
*2021 MSA Legend, "Jolly Rancher" D10 10x9
*2021 Rittenberry, "The Concord" D10 9x9
*1977 Blue Sho-Bud Pro 3 Custom 8x6
https://msapedalsteels.com
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https://www.telonics.com/index.php
https://www.p2pamps.com
https://www.quilterlabs.com |
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Bill Miller
From:
Gaspe, Quebec, Canada
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Posted 1 May 2021 8:06 am
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Ian said :
| Quote: |
| He'll learn more by listening and working out for himself whether it's in tune or not and if so why, than having a robot just tell him. |
Well yes, that's certainly true. I was just so glad to see tuners that allowed me check my tuning and be certain of it in noisy environments. My first electronic tuner was a Boss TU-12 which I used with the Newman chart. That was fine but fiddlesome and not very handy for bandstand tuning. Then for years I had one of the older, larger Peterson strobe tuners until it finally expired. I'm sorry to hear the Stroboplus HD is in short supply...hopefully it will be replaced by a comparable model.
Just as an aside I believe Peter stated that he works as a producer/engineer so while pedal steel may be new to him he probably has a musical knowledge and background more sophisticated than someone completely out of their element. And if so he may be already able to appreciate and benefit from a high end tuner. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 May 2021 8:27 am
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Maybe these items are too obvious to mention even for a beginner, but what the heck...
-The nuts that tune the raises are on the upper part of the changer, and the ones that tune the lowers are on the bottom.
-Sometimes you’ll see more than one nut move. That means the raise or lower is happening on more than one string.
-If more than one nut is moving on the same finger, that means the rod is affecting another change on that string even though the pedal or lever for that change is not activated. You just have to figure out which nut on that one finger affects the string you are tuning.
Its a good idea to make your own chart with a word processing table of some sort.
Last edited by Fred Treece on 1 May 2021 8:40 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Rick Bernauer
From:
Kansas, USA
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Posted 1 May 2021 8:35 am
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Peter - like others have mentioned every steel can be different in how the hex nuts are configured. As you figure it out on your instrument maybe you could make a chart like this to help you keep track of them.
Hope this helps - the changer and undercarriage can be pretty confusing at first.
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Tucker Jackson
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA
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Posted 1 May 2021 9:51 am Re: Yes Another Tuning thread..., but I'm a NEW
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| Peter Haverkamp wrote: |
Part Two:
I am aware there is a debate over equal temperament vs just intonation, what is the best way for a beginner to go about learning to tune? I realize everyone has different ways, but surely there must be a definitive preference? I'd like to learn the "correct" way, before I go ahead |
Well, based on Forum poll done years ago, there is a strong preference of the majority to not tune to Equal Temperment (ET, or 'straight up to 0' on the tuner, the way you tune a 6-string guitar).
But just how to proceed from there varies. You can:
1) Tune by ear (which would land you on Just Intonation (JI), if you have good ears -- same system used by harmony singers, horns, strings... anything without 'fixed pitches', like a guitar or keyboard will tune JI because it's what the ear hears best as 'in tune')
2) Tune by a canned chart. Most get you close to JI, but differ from that system in a few ways.
3) Tune by a custom chart of your own design, possibly different for each guitar.
+++
* The 'problem' with #1, tuning by ear, is that it's not obvious to newbies which intervals to be using to tune, especially on the pedals and knees. If you can do it, go for it. Also, there are trade-offs to be made, say, with the F#s and others, that are beyond the scope of newbie understanding.
* The problem with #2, canned charts -- and it isn't much of a problem-- is that there are different charts built on different assumptions. And one may work better than others, depending on the specifics of your guitar's cabinet drop (again, this is usually a fairly minor issue; all the charts are at least useable). A popular one is the Newman chart (which is also programmed into Peterson tuners), but I prefer Bob's 'quick and easy' chart for various reasons, which would take a different thread to explain its advantages.
B0b's chart;
https://b0b.com/wp/2018/08/quick-and-easy-e9th-tempered-tuning/
Newman chart:
https://steelguitarforum.com/b0b/jefftune.html
* The problem with #3, making a custom chart for each guitar, is that newbies may not understand the trade-offs involved in the tuning process until they play for a while.
Bottom line: for most people, just grab one of the popular charts and play. Any change you make to your tuning system as you become proficient will be very small tweaks rather than major overhauls. All of the various tuning systems, even ET, can sound good and are useable -- the more important thing is to learn to manipulate the bar so you play in tune. Your choice of tuning-system can't save you on that one. |
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Richard Sinkler
From:
aka: Rusty Strings -- Missoula, Montana
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Posted 1 May 2021 11:24 am
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| Fred Treece wrote: |
Maybe these items are too obvious to mention even for a beginner, but what the heck...
-The nuts that tune the raises are on the upper part of the changer, and the ones that tune the lowers are on the bottom.
-Sometimes you’ll see more than one nut move. That means the raise or lower is happening on more than one string.
-If more than one nut is moving on the same finger, that means the rod is affecting another change on that string even though the pedal or lever for that change is not activated. You just have to figure out which nut on that one finger affects the string you are tuning.
Its a good idea to make your own chart with a word processing table of some sort. |
When that happens, and it's happened on most guitars I have had with nylon tuners, I put the tuning wrench on one of the nuts that are moving. You can feel which nut is the one being activated by the pedal/lever.
_________________
Carter D10 8p/8k, Dekley S10 3p/4k C6 setup,Regal RD40 Dobro, NV400, NV112 . Playing for 54 years and still counting. |
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Fred Treece
From:
California, USA
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Posted 1 May 2021 11:35 am
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| Good tip, Richard. Thanks! |
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Andrew Frost
From:
Toronto, Ontario
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Posted 1 May 2021 1:33 pm
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Tuning straight up is probably a good place to start.
Ultimately, you want to train your ear though.
There's a Major 3rd and 5th ringing inside every single note you play.
Play an open E and listen closely for the B & G#...
Play a low B and listen for the F# & D#...
The more you start to hear those overtones, the more refined your tuning and left hand intonation will become. |
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Tommy Mc
From:
Middlesex VT
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Posted 1 May 2021 3:44 pm
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Peter, I think the question of locating the adjusters for the levers and pedals has been pretty much answered... Just step on a pedal and see which tuning nut moves. Assuming you have an all pull guitar, tune the open strings before checking the levers and pedals. Once they are set up, you should only need to check them occasionally.
When I started playing, I tuned to ET because I didn't know any better. The steel always sounded out of tune, and it was frustrating because I thought it was me. For that reason, I think it's worthwhile to use one of the available tuning charts showing the offsets for each string. The Newman chart is quite popular and a good place to start. You can experiment later. You don't need a fancy tuner (although that makes it simpler). There are a couple of free phone app tuners that allow you to program in custom offsets. You can also change the "calibration" setting on a regular tuner so it will read "straight up" when you're tuning strings that use offsets. Or get a Peterson if you can afford it. |
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Kelcey ONeil
From:
Sevierville, TN
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Posted 1 May 2021 6:07 pm
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| As for the tuning, I also agree you’re probably better off starting with straight up tuning, then refining it slightly by ear. Just for beginning, you’re probably best off to just detune the open and raised notes on the 3rd and 6th strings just a little to temper the 3rd tones and that should be sufficient for major chords. You’ll be advantaged to tune by ear in your preferred playing positions and roll with it, you’ll get a lot more playing done, and less money spent on the latest gadget( not to mention time spent reading tuning threads on the forum!). Most of the pros I know don’t even use a tuner except to tune the E’s, and they spend less time tuning and play more in tune. |
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Peter Haverkamp
From:
Ontario, Canada
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Posted 2 May 2021 8:24 am Thank You
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Well thank you again everyone for your help. Lee Warren, I am in the Niagara Region in Ontario. In regards to your suggestion and everyone else's suggestion to look at the nuts while engaging the levers/pedals, I had already figured that much out, I guess my confusion comes in so much as when I am engaging (lets take the C pedal for example), you can see two nuts clearly move, but there is also a third that moves a little, and this seems to be the case for many of the pedals and levers, where there are at least 2 nuts very noticably moving, but often a third that moves ever so slightly. Is this normal, and if so I am assuming this is some sort of residual movement, where the third nut that is moving is not actually related to the pedal/lever that I am engaging? Sorry for the wordiness of that question, hope it makes sense.
I do have a great ear for pitch, I've been told and have worked for many years not only as a musician but a producer/engineer, I've also hobby-tuned some acoustic pianos, but didn't get too into it. That being said, this instrument is much more complex than anything else I've dealt with tuning-wise, but I'm sure in time it will come more naturally.
When I first brought the guitar home several weeks ago now, it seemed to me everything was in tune, and I began learning right away playing along with youtube and spotify and had a few close friends over to jam with me. But as it turns out, the instrument (although in tune with itself) was tuned a bit sharp, so what had been happening was I was learning to play visually with the bar behind the fret marker to compensate. The other day I tuned the open strings to match my electric piano, and now it is throwing me off because the bar has to be directly above fret marker.
Rick Bernauer, thanks for that handy diagram and a blank template version for me to print! How wonderful!
Tucker Jackson, thank you for the detailed breakdown with pros and cons of each method. I do recognize the importance of manipulating the bar to play in tune and that all comes down to ear. That being said, I'd like to pick a method of tuning right from the get-go, so I am not having to change my method of manipulating the bar down the road. It sounds like I just have to start tweaking and see what works best for me!
Thanks again everyone who responded! |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 2 May 2021 3:03 pm
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Peter, it appears that you have a refined sense of pitch, so what follows may interest you.
I was drawn to pedal steel by its sonority, which sonority is maximised by tuning in natural intervals. That's what drew me to the trombone (my other life) and as others have pointed out, wind instruments can only play in natural intonation - eliminating the beats is the only result they can identify. A horn section could not play in ET however many times you doubled their fee!
But the human ear is much more tolerant of sharpness than flatness, so I tune my thirds a few beats bright as insurance against them slipping ever so slightly flat (which kills the sound stone dead). Natural fifths are pretty close to ET ones anyway, so I end up with what is often called a "sweetened tuning" but all done by ear.
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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Chris Sattler
From:
Hunter Valley, Australia
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Posted 3 May 2021 5:33 am
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| Congratulations on tackling steel guitar. I'm guessing you know which way to turn the tuning wrench. Just in case: if the pedal (or lever) is a raise then turning it IN, or clockwise will raise further. OUT will lower. If the pedal/lever is a lower then turning IN will lower further. So what ever the pedal does, then turning the wrench IN will do more of it. I advise not to adjust those hex nuts with the pedal or lever activated. Make sure it is free to move, then adjust, then check. Just a little bit is all that is required. |
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K Maul
From:
Hadley, NY/Hobe Sound, FL
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Posted 3 May 2021 7:10 am
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| Ian Rae wrote: |
But the human ear is much more tolerant of sharpness than flatness, so I tune my thirds a few beats bright as insurance against them slipping ever so slightly flat (which kills the sound stone dead. |
Interesting. I’ve always tuned the B on dobro G tuning and the G# on steel E tuning slightly flat. That’s what sounds right to my ear. Is that wrong?
_________________
Kevin Maul: Airline, Beard, Clinesmith, Decophonic, Evans, Excel, Fender, Fluger, Gibson, Hilton, Ibanez, Justice, K+K, Live Strings, MOYO, National, Oahu, Peterson, Quilter, Rickenbacher, Sho~Bud, Supro, TC, Ultimate, VHT, Williams, X-otic, Yamaha, ZKing. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 3 May 2021 7:23 am
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| Quote: |
| Interesting. I’ve always tuned the B on dobro G tuning and the G# on steel E tuning slightly flat. That’s what sounds right to my ear. Is that wrong? |
Do you mean flat with respect to the tuner (ET)? I'm pretty sure Ian is referring to tuning 3rds slightly sharp of harmonically tuned - i.e., JI. But that is still flat of an equally tempered 3rd.
As a long-time guitar player (and piano before that), I didn't know any better than to tune straight up ET to a tuner when I started playing pedal steel. But I'm very glad I ultimately heeded advice and took on the quest to be able to tune steel by ear. I think one of the biggest issues in playing steel guitar is developing a good ear. I'm not sure I understand how someone can play in tune if they can't distinguish relatively small pitch differences in different tuning approaches. That doesn't imply superiority of one tuning method over another - simply that one should work to be able to distinguish the differences.
An aside - when I first started playing guitar, I tuned using pure harmonics. The issues doing this for guitar are well documented. This is 1960s, there were no tuners available except the very expensive StroboConn which was way out of my price range. There was one at school, reserved for the marching band, which I wanted nothing to do with. Somewhat later, I was reading about equal temperament tuning in a guitar repair book (forget which one), which is possible by ear but involves counting beats between intervals. So I started doing that, which helped some but was kind of a PITA. I bought a fairly early but relatively inexpensive electronic tuner, which was a real game changer. The upshot is that I think tuning harmonically JI by ear is quite a bit easier than ET by ear. For me, the hardest part was accepting that I really needed to work on tuning and playing much more by ear, after years of guitar playing where a tuner really did work better in most situations. |
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Bobby D. Jones
From:
West Virginia, USA
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Posted 3 May 2021 7:58 pm
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When you sit down at the steel, Take a little time before tuning. Rub your hand up and down the length of the strings, 3 or 4 times. While rubbing the strings, Shove the pedals down and release a few times, And move the knee levers through there movements. Especially the Lower and raise E levers.
With putting the strings through stretch and lower will make the tuning more stable.
If you sit down and start tuning the strings then start playing, Engaging the pedals and knee levers can make them drift from the original tuning.
Good Luck and Happy Steelin. |
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Glenn Demichele
From:
(20mi N of) Chicago Illinois, USA
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Posted 3 May 2021 8:35 pm
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I’m a fretless bass player and I am good at keeping one note in tune. This gave me a problem when I started steel 28 years ago. I started with a sweetened tuning and as I was playing, I thought I was playing in tune but when I played the tape back it was awful. I figured out that as I moved from one position to the next ( like open to A-F), the root or 5th, or whatever note my brain was using to tune would fall on the sweetened string, so everything else would be sharp (typically). I went to meantone tuning, and it cleaned me up right away. I tune ET now, with a little touch-up, and I also play a lot less close 3-note grips than I used to.
_________________
Franklin D10 8&5, Excel D10 8&5, homemade buffer/overdrive, Moyo pedal, GT-001 effects, 2x BAM200 for stereo. 2x GW8003 8" driver in homemade closed-box. Also NV400 etc. etc... |
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Ian Rae
From:
Redditch, England
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Posted 4 May 2021 12:37 am
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A lot seems to depend on background. I came from trombone, so I expect to hear perfectly tuned triads and nothing else will do; and bar placement has never been a problem, as the servo loop was already there.
(Using picks was a whole new world of pain to begin with, and I still have to work on the right hand.)
I also play fretless bass, but it and the steel seem to neither help nor hinder each other, which is odd.
Glen is echoing Jeff Newman's admonition to avoid 3-note grips - I try to do the same, but I do love those triads!
_________________
Make sleeping dogs tell the truth!
Homebuilt keyless U12 7x5, Excel keyless U12 8x8, Williams keyless U12 7x8, Telonics rack and 15" cabs |
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